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 How about what Putin said? |
Could It Be True |
| diakoneo wrote: | Nature Boy Florida said:
| Quote: | | The govt must defend us. As Trump says - lets built them a big beautiful safe haven in their own country - and any religious organization that wants to join in to help will be able to do so. |
Trump also said: "I'd bomb the s**t out of ISSIS"...yes he used the expletive in a speech :shock:
And while I heartily agree with the sentiment, I must say that his inability to convey something above a 3rd grade level amazes me! |
Now that Putin is convinced that ISIS blew up that Russian plane this is how he responded:
It's up to God to forgive the terrorists. It's up to me to send them to him.
You like that one?
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Acts-celerater
Posts: 717
11/18/15 1:15 pm
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| Re: How about what Putin said? |
diakoneo |
| Could It Be True wrote: | | diakoneo wrote: | Nature Boy Florida said:
| Quote: | | The govt must defend us. As Trump says - lets built them a big beautiful safe haven in their own country - and any religious organization that wants to join in to help will be able to do so. |
Trump also said: "I'd bomb the s**t out of ISSIS"...yes he used the expletive in a speech 
And while I heartily agree with the sentiment, I must say that his inability to convey something above a 3rd grade level amazes me! |
Now that Putin is convinced that ISIS blew up that Russian plane this is how he responded:
It's up to God to forgive the terrorists. It's up to me to send them to him.
You like that one? |
Question remains: Who won? Jesus or Allah
No I don't trust our government.
Legalization of infanticide...millions of unborn dead
Legalization of pornographic images as "speech"
No fault easy pleasey divorce
Remove bible and prayer from schools
Legalization of homosexual marriage
That is just in the past 50 years...
That is who we have become. Corrupt. But I am glad I am a citizen of that heavenly country, where Christ is King. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
11/18/15 1:40 pm
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UncleJD |
| This is all simply redistribution of misery... Prosperous people can't be controlled so dump the world's misery everywhere there is prosperity. Again the "normal, peaceful" Muslim countries aren't doing a thing to comfort their "own". These are political issues, not spiritual ones. But on the other-hand God can and does use bad political environments to redeem, that's Him. It is government's job to protect its people. It is the Church's job to minister to everyone that will listen and those two things can actually go hand in hand. I don't recall Great Britain Christians hoping that Germans would pour into their country during WWII (and yes, we are at war with "radical" Islam no matter what Obama says or does)... yet Jesus loved them every bit as much as he does the Syrians. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3139
11/18/15 2:44 pm
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Nick Park |
| UncleJD wrote: | | Again the "normal, peaceful" Muslim countries aren't doing a thing to comfort their "own". |
Turkey has received 2 million Syrian refugees. In terms of percentage of their population, that would be the equivalent of the US receiving 10 million.
Lebanon has received 1.2 million - that is a staggering number, actually comprising over 25% of Lebanon's total population.
Jordan, with a total population of 6 million people, has received 600,000 refugees. They have also, since 2011, spent $6.6 billion caring for Syrian refugees. That amounts, each year, to spending 30% of their entire GDP on care of refugees. To put that figure in perspective, the most generous 'Christian' country in the world is Sweden, giving 1% of GDP in overseas aid. The US gives 0.19% of GDP.
The fact is that ISIS have caused a huge and catastrophic human tragedy in that region. If you don't want refugees to come to the US then you're entitled to your opinion, but to claim that other Muslim nations are not doing anything to help is breathtakingly untruthful. Their levels of help given, compared to their resources, are far far greater than the Marshall Plan or indeed any humanitarian project ever undertaken by any 'Christian' nation.
| Quote: | | I don't recall Great Britain Christians hoping that Germans would pour into their country during WWII (and yes, we are at war with "radical" Islam no matter what Obama says or does)... yet Jesus loved them every bit as much as he does the Syrians. |
I think most people recognize that our countries did far too little for German Jews. My own country's response was shameful. We believe that in the current crisis God is giving us an opportunity to atone for our sinful neglect 80 years ago. God is gracious like that.
Interestingly enough, since you raise the comparison with German Jews, back then people raised the same fears as they do now. They said that Nazi spies might be hidden among them. That was why the St Louis, a ship full of Jewish refugees, was refused permission to dock in the US (and in other countries). It had to sail back across the Atlantic to Europe. 25% of the passengers ended up dying in the Holocaust.
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Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1021
11/18/15 8:02 pm
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| Nick |
Cojak |
We actually tend to forget the heavy Muslim population of Turkey. We hear on our news sources that the rich countries of Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and Bahrain have offered NO assistance or space for refugees. Some of the richest countries in the world. That is what we hear over here.
I am glad to get an education from your entry, and it does put some things in a new light. I still hold to the idea of creating CITIES in Syria protected by NATO until the refugees can return home, I am assuming they would like to return home. Financially it would be feasible I think and save much relocating. The Refugees themselves could be hired to build the cities.
But from here, I want to thank you for the information you have shared.
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11/18/15 9:17 pm
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| Re: Nick |
diakoneo |
| Cojak wrote: | We actually tend to forget the heavy Muslim population of Turkey. We hear on our news sources that the rich countries of Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and Bahrain have offered NO assistance or space for refugees. Some of the richest countries in the world. That is what we hear over here.
I am glad to get an education from your entry, and it does put some things in a new light. I still hold to the idea of creating CITIES in Syria protected by NATO until the refugees can return home, I am assuming they would like to return home. Financially it would be feasible I think and save much relocating. The Refugees themselves could be hired to build the cities.
But from here, I want to thank you for the information you have shared. |
Agreed, yes this could be done.
But an opportunity would be lost to preach the gospel to those who would otherwise not hear it. Who is to say that one of these refugees gets saved becomes a missionary and returns to Syria and evangelizes his people...yes at the cost of his life and another follow and another and another. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
11/18/15 11:11 pm
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| Re: Nick |
Nick Park |
| Cojak wrote: | | We actually tend to forget the heavy Muslim population of Turkey. We hear on our news sources that the rich countries of Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and Bahrain have offered NO assistance or space for refugees. Some of the richest countries in the world. That is what we hear over here. |
The countries you mention don't have an official category of 'refugee' - but they do list the refugees as 'Syrians living in our country since 2011' (when the conflict in Syria really kicked off. Here are the statistics for the number of Syrians received by each of those countries since the crisis began:
These numbers, you will see, are proportionally much higher than anything your country or mine is likely to receive (Bahrain and Qatar are small countries with populations of 1.5 and 2 million respectively). And so they should do more, since this humanitarian crisis is on their very doorstep.
So, while they don't call them 'refugees', it would be totally wrong to say that these countries are not doing anything.
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Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1021
11/19/15 5:09 am
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Change Agent |
I cannot understand why conservative bible belt governors in USA would not want refugees brought into their states. Are these areas more into fear than faith that they can impact refugees for the gospel?
It seems to be the liberal states that want the refugees to settle in their areas. Why would they have less fear than bible believing people?
Surely people of God want to help those in need. Where are the people of God? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
11/19/15 8:46 am
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Cojak |
| Change Agent wrote: | I cannot understand why conservative bible belt governors in USA would not want refugees brought into their states. Are these areas more into fear than faith that they can impact refugees for the gospel?
It seems to be the liberal states that want the refugees to settle in their areas. Why would they have less fear than bible believing people?
Surely people of God want to help those in need. Where are the people of God? |
These governors are responsible for the safety of their people. They do have legitimate concerns, from what info is available. Fortunately we have not lived as the people in Ireland and Israel(and other countries of open 'armed' rebellion) with violence on a level where you were 'anxious' when waiting on a bus. It is a very confusing issue. The Governor was not elected as a Christian pastor, but as a leader. 
Speaking of caring, I think you would have to travel far to find more caring, giving and loving folk than the Christians (us sweet people) down South. (Of course that is only my opinion) 
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11/19/15 11:09 am
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| Re: Nick |
Cojak |
| Nick Park wrote: | | Cojak wrote: | | We actually tend to forget the heavy Muslim population of Turkey. We hear on our news sources that the rich countries of Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and Bahrain have offered NO assistance or space for refugees. Some of the richest countries in the world. That is what we hear over here. |
The countries you mention don't have an official category of 'refugee' - but they do list the refugees as 'Syrians living in our country since 2011' ...
So, while they don't call them 'refugees', it would be totally wrong to say that these countries are not doing anything. |
Thank you very much for that clarification. Funny thing, I have not heard that even ONCE on this side of the Pond. But as has been said at least a million times, our media loves to grand stand and raise hackles.
But. very seriously, from my heart, thanks for the information. It does shine light in a dark corner.
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11/19/15 11:16 am
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AnOnYmOuS4ArEaSoN |
| Change Agent wrote: | I cannot understand why conservative bible belt governors in USA would not want refugees brought into their states. Are these areas more into fear than faith that they can impact refugees for the gospel?
It seems to be the liberal states that want the refugees to settle in their areas. Why would they have less fear than bible believing people?
Surely people of God want to help those in need. Where are the people of God? |
They don't have less fear....they just see the refugees as future voters for the democrats. Just like the illegal immigrants. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 202
11/19/15 9:12 pm
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Nick Park |
| AnOnYmOuS4ArEaSoN wrote: |
They don't have less fear....they just see the refugees as future voters for the democrats. Just like the illegal immigrants. |
Now that is very interesting indeed.
We already know that legal immigrants (which refugees are) are more likely to study harder and work harder than native-born citizens. Zig Ziglar, in a chapter in one of his books, states that legal immigrants are 4 times as likely to become millionaires. He called that chapter "The Immigrant's Attitude!
Immigrants encourage their children to study harder at school. There's a reason why immigrants comprise only 13% of the US population, but their children comprise 60% of the nation's top science students and 65% of the top math students. Thomas Friedman, in 'The World is Flat', cites school teachers who find immigrant parents complain that their children are not being set enough homework, whereas American parents tend to complain that their children are being set too much homework and it is interfering with their football or cheerleading practices.
Studies around the world have shown that refugees and their children are even more likely to set up their own businesses than other legal immigrants. That makes perfect sense, since small business owners suffer greatly under regimes like ISIS or the Taliban, and they are more likely to be able to scrape together the funds necessary to leave the country.
So, refugees entering America are more likely to work two or three jobs initially, then to start up a small business. They, and their children, are likely to end up more prosperous, to be more educated, to be home-owners, and to pay more taxes.
Are these not the kind of people who the GOP should view as future voters? Why assume that they will vote Democrat?
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National Overseer, Church of God, Ireland
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http://eaiseanchai.wordpress.com/ |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1021
11/20/15 3:35 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Why assume that they will vote Democrat? |
Probably because that's the party immigrants have overwhelmingly voted for.
However, I don't get the feeling that the fear of who the immigrants will vote for is what is behind the current strong resistance in the US to settling Syrian refugees. What I'm hearing is concern about terrorists. How well founded the fears are I don't have a way to gauge, but it seems the concern about the vetting process increased markedly after the recent terrorist attack in Paris. The problem is exacerbated when, rather than listening to citizens' concerns, the president (yes, the person who does not think a child who survives a botched abortion should be given medical care) just chides us for being against widows and orphans.
This opinion piece articulates the concerns that I'm hearing.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/11/19/son-holocaust-survivor-dont-let-syrian-refugees-in/?intcmp=hpbt2 |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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11/20/15 8:35 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
| Nick Park wrote: | | UncleJD wrote: | | Again the "normal, peaceful" Muslim countries aren't doing a thing to comfort their "own". |
Turkey has received 2 million Syrian refugees. In terms of percentage of their population, that would be the equivalent of the US receiving 10 million.
Lebanon has received 1.2 million - that is a staggering number, actually comprising over 25% of Lebanon's total population.
Jordan, with a total population of 6 million people, has received 600,000 refugees. They have also, since 2011, spent $6.6 billion caring for Syrian refugees. That amounts, each year, to spending 30% of their entire GDP on care of refugees. To put that figure in perspective, the most generous 'Christian' country in the world is Sweden, giving 1% of GDP in overseas aid. The US gives 0.19% of GDP.
The fact is that ISIS have caused a huge and catastrophic human tragedy in that region. If you don't want refugees to come to the US then you're entitled to your opinion, but to claim that other Muslim nations are not doing anything to help is breathtakingly untruthful. Their levels of help given, compared to their resources, are far far greater than the Marshall Plan or indeed any humanitarian project ever undertaken by any 'Christian' nation.
| Quote: | | I don't recall Great Britain Christians hoping that Germans would pour into their country during WWII (and yes, we are at war with "radical" Islam no matter what Obama says or does)... yet Jesus loved them every bit as much as he does the Syrians. |
I think most people recognize that our countries did far too little for German Jews. My own country's response was shameful. We believe that in the current crisis God is giving us an opportunity to atone for our sinful neglect 80 years ago. God is gracious like that.
Interestingly enough, since you raise the comparison with German Jews, back then people raised the same fears as they do now. They said that Nazi spies might be hidden among them. That was why the St Louis, a ship full of Jewish refugees, was refused permission to dock in the US (and in other countries). It had to sail back across the Atlantic to Europe. 25% of the passengers ended up dying in the Holocaust. |
How many Mexicans has Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon taken in?
How many Americans ended up dying in Europe to free those nations from Nazis?
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Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
11/20/15 9:17 am
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philunderwood |
| UncleJD wrote: | | I think we can take this as wonderful news, and pray that it continues if the flood isn't stemmed. I don't think we have to both appreciate this story AND take it as prescriptive. It is a great report and I rejoice for them. I do not, however, believe any differently about the overall situation. I believe that those fleeing for legitimate reasons are more open to the Gospel, but its not them I'm worried about (as much). |
Wow, certainly NOT!
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Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3954
11/20/15 10:18 am
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Nick Park |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: |
How many Mexicans has Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon taken in? |
Precisely the same amount as the number of Mexicans who have applied to go and live in a refugee camp in Jordan, Turkey or Lebanon. That would be zero.
The fact is, you would have to be in desperate fear of your life to go to those dreadful places.
| Quote: | | How many Americans ended up dying in Europe to free those nations from Nazis? |
I'm not sure what that has to do with receiving refugees? I hope you're not thinking I'm somehow slamming America. America's role in WWII after Pearl Harbor was immense and is one of the reasons why most Europeans, myself included, hold the US in high esteem.
The US is on the other side of the world from Syria, and 45,000 refugees is a drop in a bucket compared with 7 million total displaced Syrians. The US is also, in total cash terms, the largest financial giver in helping Syrian refugees. So, if the US quietly decided not to accept a single Syrian refugee then that's fine. An evangelistic opportunity missed, but the American church's loss would be the European church's gain.
BUT, what is immensely damaging is when US politicians, grandstanding to win votes, make statements of fear against refugees that are reported around the world - and be sure that ISIS will rebroadcast such statements far and wide. When Gov. Christie says that he would deny entry to Syrian orphans under 5 years of age 'in order to protect America' then he becomes one of the best recruiters the extremists could ever hope for. And that is bad for all of us.
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11/20/15 10:23 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
Sorry Nick. I guess I misread.
When you compared the amount of GDP other countries that took in Syrians to the amount of the U.S. GDP to take in the same amount - and went to the trouble of putting the word "Christian" nation in quotes - it appeared to be a slam against the U.S.
Guess I was wrong.
And you compared importing Jews to Syrians today.
Many were worried about the effects of importing so many non-Christians back then. Since most American Jews are very liberal and vote Democrat - I guess those fears were unfounded too.
With our current govt leaders - we are 20 trillion in debt - our spending priorities are completely out of whack - we pay to abort millions of babies every year - we encourage folks not to work over here...with handouts for everyone. We have no faith that our govt wouldn't do the exact opposite of what we want them to do. We botch everything else up - so we do not want anymore govt sanctioned solutions.
And you sound like you are channeling Obama when you say ISIS will enhance recruiting based on what U.S. politicians say. We have a leader that has done everything he can to placate Muslims - and it has had no effect. The guys that blew up the Boston Marathon - came over a child refuges - how did that work out? The French have let numerous refugees come in - how did that work out for them?
I see a lot of holier than thou posturing from folks overseas - but I have not seen it lead to a great awakening across the pond. It might be best to realize that so far none of us have the answers ... and we should work within our Christian organizations - and not look to a govt solution that continually botches things up.
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Posts: 16619
11/20/15 11:30 am
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Nick Park |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Sorry Nick. I guess I misread.
When you compared the amount of GDP other countries that took in Syrians to the amount of the U.S. GDP to take in the same amount - and went to the trouble of putting the word "Christian" nation in quotes - it appeared to be a slam against the U.S. |
I said that Jordan was spending, in terms of its GDP, 3000% more than any 'Christian' nation. I put the word 'Christian' in quotes because I don't believe any truly Christian nation exists anywhere on earth.
I referenced the US figure, and compared it to nations such as Jordan, because I was responding to an American poster who had posted an outrageous falsehood - that moderate Muslim nations are doing nothing to help the Syrians. They are actually doing a huge amount (which doesn't change my belief that Islam is a Satanic and heathen religion).
My own nation gives a quite pathetic 0.43% to overseas aid.
| Quote: | | And you compared importing Jews to Syrians today. |
No, a Poster called UncleJD compared importing Jews to Syrians today. I pointed out why the comparison did nor constitute a good argument to close the doors on refugees.
| Quote: | | Many were worried about the effects of importing so many non-Christians back then. Since most American Jews are very liberal and vote Democrat - I guess those fears were unfounded too. |
I'm sure you didn't mean that to sound like it does. We have met, and I know you are far too intelligent and kind to ever imagine that the fear that someone might vote for the wrong party could ever be a reason for shutting the door on even one single Jew fleeing the Nazis.
| Quote: | | And you sound like you are channeling Obama when you say ISIS will enhance recruiting based on what U.S. politicians say. We have a leader that has done everything he can to placate Muslims - and it has had no effect. The guys that blew up the Boston Marathon - came over a child refuges - how did that work out? The French have let numerous refugees come in - how did that work out for them? |
You don't placate murderous psychopaths. But neither do you say stupid things to help them recruit. Obama may indeed have said that - even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
As for the French. They had a refugee who participated in a terrorist attack. The UK suffered numerous attacks from Irish terrorists, but even when that was happening they permitted me to live in England and pastor a church.
Refugees should be vetted. And if they are criminals or terrorists they should be locked up. I think anyone sees that as reasonable.
| Quote: | | I see a lot of holier than thou posturing from folks overseas - but I have not seen it lead to a great awakening across the pond. It might be best to realize that so far none of us have the answers ... and we should work within our Christian organizations - and not look to a govt solution that continually botches things up. |
No holier than thou posturing here. I shared a wonderful testimony of how God is moving. And then, when statements were made which were manifestly untrue, I presented some facts. That is evidently unwelcome to some (not you).
As for not seeing a great awakening across the pond. What would you call it if a nation's number of born-again Christians increased by 1000% in ten years - with 50% of those Christians being immigrants? And what if you saw a group of immigrants where 70% of them have become Pentecostals. That's what has happened in my nation through immigration.
And the early signs from Germany are that an awakening is beginning. Floyd McClung know more about missions in Europe than anyone - and he says he has never seen anything like it.
As I say, if America chooses not to receive any refugees that is their decision, and they have a perfect right to make it. But if some of your politicians dialed down the rhetoric it would make it easier for those of us who do want to welcome refugees into nations and into our churches.
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http://eaiseanchai.wordpress.com/ |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1021
11/20/15 12:23 pm
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UncleJD |
It also seems to me that the Christian sudden-missionaries over here shouting that Christians should want them all to come over here so we can witness to them, and that Christians that don't want this are just "fearful" need to look in their little mirrors. My Bible says to "Go" and preach the gospel. I think you shouldn't be opening your mouth unless you are one of the tens of Christians that go up to Dearborn or Detroit to the Muslims there preaching the gospel. Yes its awesome that so many refugees are coming to Christ, but its not so awesome that Christians are not going to them there. Maybe this is God's way of bringing the gospel to them because we aren't Going ???
We've had Muslim communities in America for years now.
BTW, please, please, please don't get me wrong, I really do think its awesome what Nick reported is happening. My daughter looked at me and said "do you think I could help over there?" Its truly great. But I think I can hold that view of what God is doing in the situation, and simultaneously disagree with the decisions of our governments to do it. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3139
11/20/15 12:31 pm
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Cojak |
This has been one of the most eye-opening posts we have had in a long time. I truly do thank Nick for taking the time to answer questions for a much nearer take. I also appreciate the views from everyone. WE here on ACTS are not going to decide who comes into the USA, but we can be more knowledgeable.
Bro McClung was mentioned. I met a Missionary McClung many years ago but he would be much older than I if he were still living. My mother continually supported missionaries in Germany starting with Bro Lauster, and stayed in contact even while he was in prison.
But this was just to say THANKS to Bro Nick for posting this insightful information. What we do with it is up to us, the least we can do is pray for the ones who are spreading the Gospel of Christ.
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11/20/15 2:24 pm
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