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Annihilationism v. being in torment for eternity.....
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Post Annihilationism v. being in torment for eternity..... caseyleejones
Does annihilationism conflict with pentecostal doctrine? Do you feel embracing annihilationism is heretical? A very good and strong argument could be made for such.....

I am specifically talking about those who reject Christ, their spirit ceases to exist versus spending forever and ever in torment after passing from this life.

My wife and I had this discussion recently....what sayeth the hive?
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9/12/15 10:13 am


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Post Re: Annihilationism v. being in torment for eternity..... Resident Skeptic
caseyleejones wrote:
Does annihilationism conflict with pentecostal doctrine? Do you feel embracing annihilationism is heretical? A very good and strong argument could be made for such.....

I am specifically talking about those who reject Christ, their spirit ceases to exist versus spending forever and ever in torment after passing from this life.

My wife and I had this discussion recently....what sayeth the hive?


If I was going to argue for annihilationism, the first scripture i'd quote if Romans 6:23...

Quote:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Someone being eternally tormented has eternal life, do they not?

According to John 3:16, someone without the new birth will perish, while someone having been born again of the Holy Spirit will have eternal life.
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9/12/15 10:46 am


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Post Eddie Robbins
I am a firm believer in conditionalism. Does the soul live forever? Who has eternal life? Would God, in all of His love and mercy and the one who taught us to love our enemies keep a soul alive for the purpose of torture? What does John 3:16 mean? There is so much more but I am convinced that the way we were taught about eternal punishment is wrong. I am NOT going to debate it here, it's how I believe and I respect the beliefs of others. I will direct you to the ministry of Edward Fudge. I have come to know this man who has studied it as much or more than anyone I know. Check out the videos on his website at www.edwardfudge.com. Blessings! Acts-pert Poster
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9/12/15 12:13 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Yes, annihilationism conflicts with Pentecostal doctrine, it does not reflect classical Pentecostal theology; rather, it smacks more of Jehovah's Witness cult theology or the more recent error of Rob Bell. The name Edward Fudge is appropriate for the teaching he propagates, i.e., his Fudge candy coats the truth of eternity without God. Acts-pert Poster
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9/12/15 1:28 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
Yes, annihilationism conflicts with Pentecostal doctrine, it does not reflect classical Pentecostal theology; rather, it smacks more of Jehovah's Witness cult theology or the more recent error of Rob Bell. The name Edward Fudge is appropriate for the teaching he propagates, i.e., his Fudge candy coats the truth of eternity without God.


Do we discount it simply because the JW's teach it? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
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9/12/15 3:53 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
Yes, annihilationism conflicts with Pentecostal doctrine, it does not reflect classical Pentecostal theology; rather, it smacks more of Jehovah's Witness cult theology or the more recent error of Rob Bell. The name Edward Fudge is appropriate for the teaching he propagates, i.e., his Fudge candy coats the truth of eternity without God.


Do we discount it simply because the JW's teach it? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.



I discount it because it isn't biblical, the reference to the JW's is how a few extra-biblical teachings can produce a cult.

Now on the stopped clock, to consider it right twice a day is deception. A stopped clock is never right because it isn't working. The twice a day that it appears to be right is in appearance only, it only seems to be right, therefore, it is purely deception.
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9/12/15 4:03 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
The argument that a loving God would never allow people He created to suffer eternally sounds compelling, but in my opinion it is divorced from a biblical understanding of how serious sin is. It seems that to us that He would never do that only because we don't understand how serious sin is to Him. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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9/12/15 4:30 pm


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Post Poimen
Well said Dave.
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9/12/15 5:46 pm


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Post annihilationism doesn't make sense to me Poimen
If annihilationism is true then what practical difference does it really make if one chooses to live in sin, to deny the existence of God, etc.???

If the end result is simply ceasing to exist why wouldn't an unregenerate person want to gratify themselves and their desires all they could? What compulsion to deny themselves and turn from sin does believing in God, Jesus, and eternal life really give them without an experiential consequence in the afterlife? Of what use is the warning of coming judgment if the ultimate sentence is merely nonexistence?
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Last edited by Poimen on 9/13/15 11:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Quiet Wyatt
I remain convinced by the Scriptures of eternal conscious torment, though not because I personally wouldn't prefer annihilationism or even universalism. In any case, it is perhaps important to note that Charles F. Parham, the original formulator of the initial evidence doctrine as well as the fourfold gospel message, himself was an ardent proponent of conditional immortality/annihilation of the wicked. Doesn't mean it's necessarily true, but it certainly is not completely outside the pale of historic Pentecostalism. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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9/12/15 5:59 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Most annihilationists I have studied have not said a person just ceases to exist. What they claim is that God resurrects the wicked dead, judges them, and once they have suffered sufficiently, God annihilates them. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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9/12/15 6:02 pm


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Post Poimen
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Most annihilationists I have studied have not said a person just ceases to exist. What they claim is that Good resurrects the wicked dead, judges them, and once they have suffered sufficiently, God annihilates them.


I had a loved one who once believed something similar. Sinners suffered only enough in the afterlife for their sins to be sufficiently punished and then they were let into Heaven. So, according to them, eventually everyone goes to heaven.

Again, as Dave pointed out, this is a gross misunderstanding of just how serious sin is to a holy God. Also, it indicates that Christ's atonement isn't really necessary. One can indeed atone for their own sins by suffering sufficiently in the afterlife.
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Last edited by Poimen on 9/13/15 11:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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9/12/15 6:26 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Poimen,

I agree. In my view, annihilationism (and it's close cousin, universalism) misrepresents the issues of sin, moral agency/personhood and atonement.


Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 9/13/15 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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9/12/15 6:33 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Most annihilationists I have studied have not said a person just ceases to exist. What they claim is that God resurrects the wicked dead, judges them, and once they have suffered sufficiently, God annihilates them.


I should rephrase that to say that they typically teach that annihilation is part of the penalty for sin, along with however long and severe the fiery punishment might be which God deems appropriate to their case.

In order for annihilationism to be true, however, the sinner must somehow lose his ability to sin once condemned, or else his continued sinful rebellion against God will continue to merit punishment through eternity.
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9/13/15 10:45 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Here is an excellent article examining the question of annihilationism and eternal torment:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell4.html
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9/13/15 11:19 am


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Post But we need to step back from what we have caseyleejones
traditionally been taught. What does the bible say? We have interpreted in time past the spiritual death means being alive but in sin.....really?

I have been under the weather the past few days and will check out some links.

I remember Eddie posting something a few years ago.....would you have 5 children if you knew 3 of them would go to hell? Will we know there's another set of the populations that is burning forever and ever in torment?

Believing in annihilation of the spirit and soul is not heretical.
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9/13/15 7:51 pm


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Post Cojak
I remember as a child thinking I wanted to live right so I would not go to Hell. As I grew older and learned to WORSHIP our Lord, I wanted to live right so I could go to be with my Lord and God forever.

I can remember the time folks seemed to have joy to think that their adversaries would 'burn in Hell forever' while they feasted at Jesus's Table. I don't think for a minute they pictured their family, sons and daughters there also.

I worship a True God, a Just God, and KNOW his wisdom is infinitely above this mind of mine. His judgement will be just and honorable. I can only leave it to Him and work to get more folk in contact with Him. This soul will not complain at who is heaven with me, I just want to be there. Cool
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9/13/15 9:34 pm


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Post Poimen
Cojak wrote:
I remember as a child thinking I wanted to live right so I would not go to Hell. As I grew older and learned to WORSHIP our Lord, I wanted to live right so I could go to be with my Lord and God forever.

I can remember the time folks seemed to have joy to think that their adversaries would 'burn in Hell forever' while they feasted at Jesus's Table. I don't think for a minute they pictured their family, sons and daughters there also.

I worship a True God, a Just God, and KNOW his wisdom is infinitely above this mind of mine. His judgement will be just and honorable. I can only leave it to Him and work to get more folk in contact with Him. This soul will not complain at who is heaven with me, I just want to be there. Cool



Amen. How can we hope for otherwise but that sinners should be saved? I am of such in need of salvation myself.

However, doctrinally speaking, the idea of annihilationism undermines the sufficiency of the atoning life and work of Christ as well as the, "exceeding sinfulness of sin".

If men will be saved they must be saved through the gospel. It is the power of God unto salvation. Jesus -- nothing less, nothing more, nothing else.
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9/13/15 10:59 pm


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Post Re: Annihilationism v. being in torment for eternity..... Nick Park
Resident Skeptic wrote:

Someone being eternally tormented has eternal life, do they not?


No, they don't.

'Life' in its biblical sense, means so much more than mere existence. And 'eternal' refers to quality as well as quantity.
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9/14/15 10:31 am


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Post Re: Annihilationism v. being in torment for eternity..... Old Time Country Preacher
Nick Park wrote:
Resident Skeptic wrote:

Someone being eternally tormented has eternal life, do they not?


No, they don't.

'Life' in its biblical sense, means so much more than mere existence. And 'eternal' refers to quality as well as quantity.



Yes, they do have ongoing existence, awareness, feeling, understanding, etc., so in that sense they life as we know it in the physical (or even metaphysical); however, they do not have zoe.
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