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Recapturing the purpose of the General Assembly...
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Post Nick Park
Billy Humphrey wrote:
You seem to have misread my email Nick...

"My suggestion is to have National USA Assembly (maybe in the off years between Assemblies) which could fulfil the National Camp Meeting ideal and provide a forum for decisions to be taken that purely affect the American Church. Have as many choirs, Christian recording artistes and sweating shouting preachers as y'all want." - Nick Park

I'm not interested in any of that per say.

I'm more interested in this...

"At night, instead of choirs, soloists & preaching pyrotechnics, have heartfelt intercession for the Church. No display areas or food courts - just prayer where we cry out to the Lord for the holy business that will be transacted the following daytime." - Nick Park


That's the nature of a thread like this - so many issues are raised that I start to answer your point and start dealing with other aspects of the matter. Sorry for the confusion!

The reason I quoted your post in my response was because I would not see training as an activity best conducted at a GA when over 90% of our leaders have little prospect of attending a GA ever in their lives. Training IMHO would be better done at Regional or National level.

Btw, aren't you the guy who did his best to keep things moving along at the last GA by moving Previous Question and reducing the amount of hot air being generated? If so, you are a hero!
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1/25/14 4:52 pm


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Post Re: GA Topics Change Agent
Nick Park wrote:

"Btw, I don't think it is fair to blame individual leaders, past or present, for what the General Assembly has become. Large organisations develop a culture & momentum all of their own. The 4 years I spent on the Council of 18 left me with the impression that no one person, not even a General Overseer, can turn around a runaway train in the short time they are in office. To make meaningful changes means axing departments, terminating employees, and changing bylaws. Every step towards reform will be resisted bitterly - not least here on this board."

Nick, your statement about how hard it would be to turn around the culture in the COG is what I have always believed. A large part of the OB's don't see the need for change, especially if they like the current political system. Change would mean sacrifice and someone will have to suffer. The only real change I have seen in the last 20 years had to do with financial downturn. Will it be possible for change without catastrophic events from the outside? Seems like a more Godly plan would be to plan and implement change from within the organization (with leadership).
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1/25/14 5:28 pm


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Post When Flavis Burroughs visited R. Hughes in the hospital doyle
I didn't hear everything Flavis Burroughs stated during various General Assemblies but I don't ever remember him calling anyone a rascal. I do remember an exchange between Burroughs and Ray Hughes who was serving as Moderator.

If I remember correctly, Hughes said something about Burroughs not voting for him and Burroughs replied, "Brother Hughes, I didn't vote against you. I simply voted for someone else."

Only once was I with Flavis Burroughs and that was when I was doing a church tour raising funds for a Forward In Faith telecast. Burroughs allowed me to come to his church for that one service and during our time together, he didn't say anything negative about any person in particular. He did have some issues with "The System" and was not reluctant to share that.

Years later, when Ray Hughes was incredibly sick and in the hospital, Burroughs drove from Oxford, Alabama area to Cleveland and visited Brother Hughes.

Burroughs later called me and he was crying. He said he went into Bro. Hugh's room and Brother Hughes was asleep. He stood there and had a prayer for Brother Hugh's and while he was praying, Brother Hughes woke up.

"Flavis, is that you?" Hughes asked.

"Yes, it is me Brother Hughes," Burroughs said as he walked to the bedside. "I heard you were suffering and came to pray and tell you I love you."

According to what I was told, Hughes reached out his hand and the two men who had in the past had some strong verbal disagreements, prayed together and shared their Christian love for each other.

Burroughs didn't say why he called me and told me the story but it may have been because maybe he felt there would come a time when I'd have the opportunity to share that the two men had done some mending of the strained relation that had at times existed between them.

I'm sharing what I was told and if it is true, it speaks well of both men. Sometimes it takes big men to work through it when there have been strained relations between them.

Doyle
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1/25/14 9:15 pm


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Post Re: When Flavis Burroughs visited R. Hughes in the hospital OHIOBISHOPBILL
doyle wrote:
I didn't hear everything Flavis Burroughs stated during various General Assemblies but I don't ever remember him calling anyone a rascal. I do remember an exchange between Burroughs and Ray Hughes who was serving as Moderator.

If I remember correctly, Hughes said something about Burroughs not voting for him and Burroughs replied, "Brother Hughes, I didn't vote against you. I simply voted for someone else."

Only once was I with Flavis Burroughs and that was when I was doing a church tour raising funds for a Forward In Faith telecast. Burroughs allowed me to come to his church for that one service and during our time together, he didn't say anything negative about any person in particular. He did have some issues with "The System" and was not reluctant to share that.

Years later, when Ray Hughes was incredibly sick and in the hospital, Burroughs drove from Oxford, Alabama area to Cleveland and visited Brother Hughes.

Burroughs later called me and he was crying. He said he went into Bro. Hugh's room and Brother Hughes was asleep. He stood there and had a prayer for Brother Hugh's and while he was praying, Brother Hughes woke up.

"Flavis, is that you?" Hughes asked.

"Yes, it is me Brother Hughes," Burroughs said as he walked to the bedside. "I heard you were suffering and came to pray and tell you I love you."

According to what I was told, Hughes reached out his hand and the two men who had in the past had some strong verbal disagreements, prayed together and shared their Christian love for each other.

Burroughs didn't say why he called me and told me the story but it may have been because maybe he felt there would come a time when I'd have the opportunity to share that the two men had done some mending of the strained relation that had at times existed between them.

I'm sharing what I was told and if it is true, it speaks well of both men. Sometimes it takes big men to work through it when there have been strained relations between them.

Doyle


In an earlier exchange with Tom Sterbens I made the point that disagreement between brothers is not bad and if properly understood, can in fact be very healthy. Our church is diverse and many cultural and even religious thought make us a mosaic of ideas and we will be better if we use it for the value it is.

I remember Peter and Paul have disagreement in Acts 15-16 regarding theology and context about the Gentiles and it not only made for a historic decisions by the apostles that advanced the church. Disagreement is not bad…but my biggest concern is how the floor/platform at the General Assembly can become so distrustful of one another.

Case in point, we tend to demonize those whose heart for dialogue is misunderstood because we live in a culture that seems to feel the best way to defeat a motion is to make people afraid of it. Its what I call the FOX News and MSNBC strategy…combat with fear and people respond with fear.

Our General Assembly can be a pivotal catalyst to create the environments which foster evangelism, unity and momentum
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1/26/14 10:06 am


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Post Re: When Flavis Burroughs visited R. Hughes in the hospital OHIOBISHOPBILL
doyle wrote:
I didn't hear everything Flavis Burroughs stated during various General Assemblies but I don't ever remember him calling anyone a rascal. I do remember an exchange between Burroughs and Ray Hughes who was serving as Moderator.

If I remember correctly, Hughes said something about Burroughs not voting for him and Burroughs replied, "Brother Hughes, I didn't vote against you. I simply voted for someone else."

Only once was I with Flavis Burroughs and that was when I was doing a church tour raising funds for a Forward In Faith telecast. Burroughs allowed me to come to his church for that one service and during our time together, he didn't say anything negative about any person in particular. He did have some issues with "The System" and was not reluctant to share that.

Years later, when Ray Hughes was incredibly sick and in the hospital, Burroughs drove from Oxford, Alabama area to Cleveland and visited Brother Hughes.

Burroughs later called me and he was crying. He said he went into Bro. Hugh's room and Brother Hughes was asleep. He stood there and had a prayer for Brother Hugh's and while he was praying, Brother Hughes woke up.

"Flavis, is that you?" Hughes asked.

"Yes, it is me Brother Hughes," Burroughs said as he walked to the bedside. "I heard you were suffering and came to pray and tell you I love you."

According to what I was told, Hughes reached out his hand and the two men who had in the past had some strong verbal disagreements, prayed together and shared their Christian love for each other.

Burroughs didn't say why he called me and told me the story but it may have been because maybe he felt there would come a time when I'd have the opportunity to share that the two men had done some mending of the strained relation that had at times existed between them.

I'm sharing what I was told and if it is true, it speaks well of both men. Sometimes it takes big men to work through it when there have been strained relations between them.

Doyle


In an earlier exchange with Tom Sterbens I made the point that disagreement between brothers is not bad and if properly understood, can in fact be very healthy. Our church is diverse and many cultural and even religious thought make us a mosaic of ideas and we will be better if we use it for the value it is.

I remember Peter and Paul have disagreement in Acts 15-16 regarding theology and context about the Gentiles and it not only made for a historic decisions by the apostles that advanced the church. Disagreement is not bad…but my biggest concern is how the floor/platform at the General Assembly can become so distrustful of one another.

Case in point, we tend to demonize those whose heart for dialogue is misunderstood because we live in a culture that seems to feel the best way to defeat a motion is to make people afraid of it. Its what I call the FOX News and MSNBC strategy…combat with fear and people respond with fear.

Our General Assembly can be a pivotal catalyst to create the environments which foster evangelism, unity and momentum
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1/26/14 10:11 am


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Post John Stevenson
My question as a local pastor of a small rural church is this, what does attending the General Assembly do for me?

Another question is why don't we have it more centrally located in the Bible-belt of America where most our membership resides?
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1/27/14 1:39 pm


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Post DHDRabbi
I'm not the authority but let me try. The reason you go to the Assembly is to be a part of the process. It is your church and it is a convention that you should attend. Instead of what will it do for you, how can you contribute to your church by attending?

The Assembly goes to places where they can get good rates and they try to move it around a bit. In 2016, it will be in Nashville, TN.
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1/27/14 2:34 pm


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Post Nick Park
John Stevenson wrote:

Another question is why don't we have it more centrally located in the Bible-belt of America where most our membership resides?


Actually by that reasoning we should hold it in Indonesia where the number of our members is many times that of the Bible-belt of America.
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1/27/14 2:34 pm


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Post Nick Change Agent
OB's in the SE USA don't think anyone else counts. Rolling Eyes Acts Enthusiast
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1/27/14 5:32 pm


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Post Re: Nick DHDRabbi
Change Agent wrote:
OB's in the SE USA don't think anyone else counts. Rolling Eyes


Wow! That is a sweeping generalization that isn't fair.
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1/27/14 5:49 pm


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Post Re: Nick SouthGeorgiaBoy
Change Agent wrote:
OB's in the SE USA don't think anyone else counts. Rolling Eyes


That is an unfair and unfounded generalization and one that I take issue with. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, the rolling eyes emoticon shows a unkind attitude toward those whom you make reference to. I have never heard one OB is the southeast say that no one else counts.
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1/27/14 8:11 pm


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Post Change Agent
If you are not considerate of other OB's in Indonesia that have larger numbers than the SE USA OB's some might think they don't count. I might think they don't count enough to move the GA to Indonesia. I can understand getting the feathers riled on some OB's here in the SE USA. Acts Enthusiast
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1/27/14 10:56 pm


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Post Re: Nick Quiet Wyatt
SouthGeorgiaBoy wrote:
Change Agent wrote:
OB's in the SE USA don't think anyone else counts. :roll:


That is an unfair and unfounded generalization and one that I take issue with. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, the rolling eyes emoticon shows a unkind attitude toward those whom you make reference to. I have never heard one OB is the southeast say that no one else counts.


That's how the "Change Agent" typically rolls around here.
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1/28/14 12:39 am


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Post Nick Park
For what it's worth, I'm much happier to be flying 9 hours to Orlando for this year's GA than I would be if I were flying 18 hours to Jakarta,Indonesia. Smile

My comment about Indonesia was to demonstrate that going by where the majority of our ministers or members happen to live is most certainly NOT a consideration as to where should be the venue for the GA.

The venue of the GA will of course continue to be in the US for two reasons - history and money.

1. History. We are a denomination that began in the mountains of North Carolina & Tennessee. Our headquarters are in the SE United States. Shipping our entire General Office leadership and administration to another nation for a GA would be a ludicrous and massive expense from funds that are already cut to the bone.

2. Money. The majority of the money that funds the Church of God comes from churches in the US. This is not unique to our denomination, but is part of the overall demographics of evangelicalism. Less than 10% of evangelical Christians in the world live in North America, but over 90% of the wealth owned by evangelical Christians in the world is owned by the Christians who live in North America. Them that has the gold makes the rules.

Church of God membership in the US is currently somewhere between 10% and 20% of our worldwide membership. It is interesting to speculate as to what will happen if current trends continue. What if the US ends up comprising only 5% of the Church of God, or even 1%? (Both of these are real possibilities within the next century if the Lord tarries and current growth patterns continue) In fact, given the growth of the Church in fast-growing economies such as China - it is possible the financial center of the Church of God could shift elsewhere in the future.

In some ways this mirrors what happened in the First Century of Christianity when a Jewish religion headquartered in Jerusalem began to transition into a largely Gentile movement. It required people of extreme grace, both among the Jews and the Gentiles, to preserve unity. That is the context in which Paul urged the Gentile Churches in Macedonia to send financial aid to the Jerusalem Church in time of famine. The people of grace such as Paul, Peter and James had to prevail over Judaizers on the one side, and anti-semites on the other.

And that is where the comments about people in the SE United States not caring about the rest of the world can be both thought provoking but also divisive and dangerous. In my experience there are many CoG people in the South who are very interested in what is happening internationally and eager to learn how they can be more involved. There are also others who rarely think outside their own experience - that is not to say that they are uncaring in a bad or bigotted way - the idea that the majority of the Church of God lives overseas, will never have the opportunity to attend a GA, and has never eaten grits just never really crosses their mind.

Yes, there are one or two who don't care. There have been a few ministers who have told me in no uncertain terms that, by contributing my views on how the Church of God can be more international that I am an ungrateful foreigner who refuses to play by the rules. I should keep my mouth shut when the big boys are talking, take a regular check from World Missions, and come to the GA every two years so I can dress up in native dress on Missions Night, carry my national flag and smile for the TV cameras.

Thankfully such people are in a small minority - a minority that is decreasing both numerically and in influence within the Church of God. Most ministers and members I encounter, particularly those in higher levels of leadership within our movement, are genuinely interested in hearing a view from a different perspective. They show a willingness to learn from our experience with exponential church growth in a highly secularised society, and have been incredibly gracious in allowing me a voice in our denomination, including inviting me to contribute to our official publications.
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1/28/14 9:32 am


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Nick Park wrote:
John Stevenson wrote:

Another question is why don't we have it more centrally located in the Bible-belt of America where most our membership resides?


Actually by that reasoning we should hold it in Indonesia where the number of our members is many times that of the Bible-belt of America.


How many COG members are in Indonesia?

Whatever the number, why is that country thought of as a strictly Muslim nation?

Educate me here.
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1/28/14 10:59 am


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Post Nick Park
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Nick Park wrote:
John Stevenson wrote:

Another question is why don't we have it more centrally located in the Bible-belt of America where most our membership resides?


Actually by that reasoning we should hold it in Indonesia where the number of our members is many times that of the Bible-belt of America.


How many COG members are in Indonesia?

Whatever the number, why is that country thought of as a strictly Muslim nation?

Educate me here.


I understand there are at least 2 million Church of God members in Indonesia. Including a number of churches that run tens of thousands. I have visited the country once, but we have some posters here who probably know the stats better than I do.

Indonesia is often referred to as the largest Muslim country in the world, given that it has the largest population of Muslims of any single nation. Over 200 million Muslims live in Indonesia (86% of Indonesia's population - and they comprise over 12% of all the Muslims in the world).

Christians (both Protestants and Catholics) make up about 10% of the population of Indonesia and are often subject to persecution - but this varies from region to region.

There is also an ethnic dimension to this. There are a number of ethnic groups in Indonesia and some, such as the Chinese, are particularly open to the Gospel.
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1/28/14 11:12 am


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Post Tom Change Agent
Tom Sterbens wrote:

I could go further regarding (more specifically) the leadership culture of the COG and things I see as prohibitive that are "built in" to our system...and part of the problem IS what "the system" itself reinforces.
[b]The system affects HOW we think about things...
The system affects HOW we approach conflict resolution...
The system affects WHAT we will actually talk about (organizational conversation)...
The system defines our sacred cows...and the size of the sacred cow defines the "DISCUSSABLES..." and make no mistake...sacred cows are nothing other than full grown golden calves.[/b]

However, whenever ingrained systemic realities are challenged, typically the voice challenging those realities is marginalized as disloyal, negative, vengeful, a malcontent or simply angry because "you've been passed-over." This true of most any organization. At the root of all this is fear (The guiding DNA of fallen mankind)."

I take it the system you are referring to is not the Holy Spirit, but a political system that has taken the place of the Holy Spirit. When good men or women get in a bad habit or a bad system they grow to love it and embrace it. They will fight and hurt others that try to change the bad system.

What do addicts do? They want to keep their old buddies and keep on doing their drugs. Same way with old systems.

Many have been hurt by this system. If you take on this system get ready for heartache. It will take more than all of us getting together and singing kumbaya at the GA.
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1/28/14 2:11 pm


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Post DHDRabbi
Quote:
It will take more than all of us getting together and singing kumbaya at the GA.


What do you suggest it takes to make the changes you espouse?
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1/28/14 2:25 pm


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Post Warning-unpopular post roughridercog
Dare I say this?
If we restored the original purpose of General Assembly and did away with the political maneuvering, speech making, etc. and used it as a time of prayer, searching the Scriptures and such, would a lot fewer men attend?

I have to say this. Some live for the garbage and all of the political movements of the denomination. They would be sorely disappointed if it were Minot there.

I have seen AB's ask their ministers to spend time fasting during multiple prayer conferences. Special requests to gather and pray went forth. One AB begged his men to gather and pray. My wife and I were there every time with a handful of others. Dare I say that a General Assembly spent doing something as "mild" as prayer and searching the scriptures would not have the drawing power of "who is going to go where or who is staying in what state or will we ordain women this time or bring it up next time."

Just honestly thinking out loud
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1/28/14 4:40 pm


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Post Billy Humphrey
My name is Billy Humphrey from Baltimore, MD and I'd like to move previous question on all business before the house. Friendly Face
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1/28/14 7:19 pm


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