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Dancing and flag waving in church.....input please...
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Post Bro Bob
Quote:
Jesus is waiting on us to restore all things! He must remain in heaven until the Church rises up...


If this is true then he is never coming back. And he wouldn't be needed if he did.

I get your point Bro Randy.
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12/30/13 1:41 pm


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Post Seriously Randy? Mike Burgner
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Flags are all about us proclaiming victory, rallying God's troops, making war in the heavenlies, taking captive principalities and powers, and taking ground in the spiritual realm for the Kingdom!

Jesus is waiting on us to restore all things! He must remain in heaven until the Church rises up and becomes the whole measure of Christ in earth. Our flag wavers are our standard bearers, showing us where to rally ourselves as we take over the kingdoms of this world for Christ!


The Bible gives us undeniable proof that flag waving is not a method of praise or worship. Notice what you said above..... Flags were used by soldiers, armies, or warriors fighting real life battles on a real battlefield. As far as spiritual warfare goes, we fight on our faces in prayer. We fight the enemy through obedience and submission to God. Waving a flag in a charismatic church service is not going to make the enemies of hell run and hide from us. Praise and worship can only be a weapon of spiritual warfare when we focus on Christ and our perspective changes from ours to His.

I respectively disagree with your statement, but do not think anyone is going to sin or be in rebellion against God if they wanta wave flags in church. However, my stance is that it will take the focus OFF Christ and place in ON the flags.
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12/30/13 9:56 pm


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Post Re: Seriously Randy? Carolyn Smith
Mike Burgner wrote:
Quote:
Flags are all about us proclaiming victory, rallying God's troops, making war in the heavenlies, taking captive principalities and powers, and taking ground in the spiritual realm for the Kingdom!

Jesus is waiting on us to restore all things! He must remain in heaven until the Church rises up and becomes the whole measure of Christ in earth. Our flag wavers are our standard bearers, showing us where to rally ourselves as we take over the kingdoms of this world for Christ!


The Bible gives us undeniable proof that flag waving is not a method of praise or worship. Notice what you said above..... Flags were used by soldiers, armies, or warriors fighting real life battles on a real battlefield. As far as spiritual warfare goes, we fight on our faces in prayer. We fight the enemy through obedience and submission to God. Waving a flag in a charismatic church service is not going to make the enemies of hell run and hide from us. Praise and worship can only be a weapon of spiritual warfare when we focus on Christ and our perspective changes from ours to His.

I respectively disagree with your statement, but do not think anyone is going to sin or be in rebellion against God if they wanta wave flags in church. However, my stance is that it will take the focus OFF Christ and place in ON the flags.


He was being sarcastic, Mike.

And I respectfully disagree with your take on this.
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12/30/13 11:49 pm


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Post Oh! He was being sarcastic. I didn't catch that. Maybe... Mike Burgner
They should add an emoticon for sarcastic.

Or perhaps this one could represent sarcasm....

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Post Re: In response to the "Reasons for Banners" post Carolyn Smith
Tom Sterbens wrote:
What is your opinion on how you guys see the use of banners contextualized in New Testament worship?

Next - Is there a reason you left out Numbers 28:19-20?
Numbers 21:8–9 (NASB95)
8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.”
9 And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

(It appears something raised as "banner" may have involved something other than a flag...)

Last - While the list of scripture referring to banners (followed by the significance of colors) is fairly exhaustive, why is there not included the verses immediately preceding the most quoted verse of scripture in the Bible, John 3:16? Further, following the apparent conclusions of the scripture listings, would you not agree John 3:14-15 is the most direct reference to "banners" in the New Testament?
Quote:
John 3:14–15 (NASB95)
14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.


Clearly, my questions are rhetorical (but not sarcastic), with a view to how we appropriate "things" in our worship expressions today. Which brings us back to the expression we refer to as "shouting." Where is the thing we call "shouting" described or advocated in scripture?


I guess my question would be why would it have to be advocated in the NT if it was a part of worship in the OT that did not involve animal sacrifice? If a person's motive and desire is to worship (not draw attention to himself), how could it/why would it be wrong?

I've always felt that Acts 2 covered "shouting." Upon reading and hearing this account of the Holy Spirit falling and the comment about the men that "they are not drunken as you suppose" indicates they were acting in some way as though they were drunken (hollering, acting "stupid" to the onlooker, not walking steadily, etc.) Growing up in a COG, "shouting" seemed to me to be a part of the whole Pentecostal experience described in Acts 2.

There are plenty of things we do in church that does not necessarily have a scriptural NT basis (praise teams, full band accompaniment & soundtracks, special songs, special prayer requests, drama skits, etc.) Does this mean there should be a scripture (or more than one for it to be valid) for everything we "do" in church?

If a person is using his gifting/passion for God (to worship Him in the way that expresses his true heart) and it is not disruptive to the church/service, is it wrong or should it not be allowed?
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1/1/14 4:33 pm


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Post Re: Dancing and flag waving in church.....input please... bradfreeman
roughridercog wrote:
If you have it, that's fine. But quite honestly it's not my tradition. In my head it's just a big show of people saying "look at me."

But if you want to do it, go ahead.


It is often a matter of what we're used to and I appreciate your openness to people who "want to do it".

But people like to feel involved. Flag waiving in front probably isn't any different than the preacher doing his thing in front as a far as the "look at me" risk is concerned - except flag waivers probably know when to stop ( Laughing ). I don't tend to suspect that either - preachers (people who talk for the Lord) or flag waivers (people who waive flags for the Lord) - are doing it just to be admired but rather because the opportunity met the desire.
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Post bradfreeman
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Based on all the scriptures linking praising and singing and dancing - how can we exclude any of them from our church?

And if we practice music and singing - what could be wrong with practiced (choreographed) dancing?

Do dancers bring anymore attention to themselves that soloists? I don't think so.

There's NBFs two cents. Spend it however you will.
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Post Re: I honestly heard one teenager compare it to... bradfreeman
roughridercog wrote:
The high school flag team.

"It's for those not tough enough to play football, talented enough to play in the band, or pretty enough to be a cheerleader."

I nearly sprayed coffee laughing and made a mental note to share it. Laughing Laughing


This statement sounds like the wisdom of a teenager.

You should have made a mental note never to share it. To suggest that folks who might enjoy waiving flags in worship are second-rate in any way is just silly - no matter how clever a preacher the statement might make you sound.

It would also be unwise to belittle anyone on the high school flag team.
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1/1/14 9:19 pm


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Post bradfreeman
Dancing, singing, praying, playing instruments, waiving flags, painting, writing and many other expressions of joy and love for God are not prohibited anywhere in scripture.

Private worship is a great place to do these things. However, there is often a different and uniquely powerful momentum created in corporate settings. Folks ought to have the opportunity, within reasonable bounds for order sake, to express their joy and love to God (or war in worship by overcoming their own personal distractions, fears, pride, etc). Whether someone's expression of joy - a song, a dance, a message or a waived banner - distracts you is many times a factor of (1) how new the expression is to you, (2) how "into worship" you are in the moment or (3) how disciplined you are at directing your own focus to God.

I personally enjoy watching people worship and intentionally enjoy worshiping with them in a corporate setting. I rarely try to block other worshipers out of my consciousness in a church setting - I say "let's do this together".
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Post David wasn't naked! Mark Ledbetter
2 Sam 6:14 states David was wearing a "linen ephod" and when Michal expressed her displeasure with David's worship her reference to David as uncovering himself, she was irritated that David laid aside his kingly attire and was adorned in the priestly linen ephod.

Her problem? Instead of retaining the royal dignity of his kingship, he got down and danced like a commoner.

The degel [דֶּגֶל] is a pole that is used to hoist an distinguishing emblem, usually shield, a figurine, or even an animal. It is used in Numbers to indicate that each tribe had their identifying degel.

The nes [נֵס] is a high pole that can bear a flag or ornamental cloth as a leader’s signal, or a tall signal pole. The serpent was affixed upon a nes and the nes is a popular word used by the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah and often with Messianic overtones.

There is no scriptural reference to using either in worship.
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Post Cojak
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
I have known several flag wavers over the years. They were no more ego-driven and self-centered than the typical church soloist, musician, preacher or songleader. Most just loved the Lord and wanted to express their praise in this way and inspire others to joyously celebrate the goodness of the Lord.


This is a very good point QW, that is what I like about some discussions, a point is brought up I haven't thought of.
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Post Re: In response to the "Reasons for Banners" post Carolyn Smith
Tom Sterbens wrote:


Carolyn - my post contained separate questions/issues.

1 - Had to do with worship practices under the New Covenant?

2 - Was a questions asking for a biblical reference in all of scripture (Old or New testament) of what "we" refer to as "shouting."

My larger point being: There are things we often do in our worship experience that somehow seem to become (or have become) sacred. Two of those things have become part of this discussion/thread - (1) flag/banner waving (2) and shouting. And you can see the passion associated with each of these just within the dialog here.

Personally - I do no object to either of them. And as Brad mentioned above (I think), there are many things we may do that are acts of worship that are NOT specifically listed in scripture...I get that. I encounter people regularly who have embraced some nuance of worship and become spiritually fanatical regarding them. For example: prayer shawls, shofars, seders, and three-chord songs written in a minor key (these are esteemed to be somehow more "Messianic").

If you want to shout. Then shout. But it is unnecessary to impose it as being more spiritual in terms of a worship experience. Or if you want to wave a flag...then go for it...

Personally (again) I have had many of what can only be described as deep and profoundly cathartic moments of encounter with and through the Holy Spirit. Only two times have I fallen from my feet in what is often referred to as "being slain in the Spirit," (which,once again, is language found nowhere in scripture). Many times I have experienced extended times of prayer weeping, overwhelmed by a sense of God's presence and seemingly "in the grip" of something. I believe them to be legitimate encounters with God in worship...but I will NOT seek to raise them as a standard of spiritual ascent in worship and insist that others do it.

We are too often divided over nuance and experience...even over that which is simply preference. The good news is the Kingdom of God is elastic enough and fluid enough to provide room for a lot of worship and I think we miss the heart of God when we act dismissively toward others who may not worship as we do.


Thanks for your post, Tom...thoughtful & informative as usual. I deeply respect your input and opinion because from what I know of you here online (having never actually met you), your answers are Biblical and well thought out. Except for the occasional silly responses we all give at times. Smile

Please understand my questions raised previously are sincere. I am a teacher but do not have the benefit of theological training many of you do. What I have come to know is through my own study and what I have learned from others. So when I hear something I believe challenged, part of my concern is that MY teaching is in error, and that is something I take seriously.

Your response is actually very close to what I believe. I am not "into" flag waving or a lot of shouting. But because I know of my daughter's passion for worship and have seen her face transformed as she worships the Lord in what is meaningful to her, I believe it is a valid form of worship. Actually the only times she has used flags has been in planned dramas with the children, but she does on occasion use streamers and scarves as part of her worship.

I am not saying because a particular form of worship is meaningful to one person, it should be embraced by all. We Pentecostals are just as guilty of building sacred cows as anyone. My main concern with this thread is that some have been being mocked and made fun of because of their mode of worship. That is really disappointing to me, so I felt a need to speak up for them.

If a person's worship experience is not "un-Biblical" (such as the lady who got excited in the Lord & tried to swing from a chandelier, breaking both her legs), it seems that should be between them & the Lord. If the person is disruptive to the service or breaking the flow of the Spirit, that person probably needs to be dealt with privately.

One of my former pastors said, "One of the dangers of becoming more spiritual is having the perception that others are not." How profound a statement! When we have those encounters with God or press in for a season in a more profound way, sometimes we are tempted to become Pharisaical when we look at others and begin to judge their hearts/worship, etc. This is indeed dangerous.

This has been a good discussion and challenged us, perhaps, in our thinking. Which is part of the reason this board exists...and part of the reason I still participate here at times. Thanks again.
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1/3/14 6:49 am


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Post Praise and Worship are hijacked words. Randy Johnson
We have taken the words "praise" and "worship" out of their elementary setting and applied them to behaviors we participate in and observe in our assembled meetings.

Have you ever noticed that in the New Testament we do not have the detailed rules for approaching God that they had in the Old Testament?

We are given much more freedom in the New Testament on how we approach God and express ourselves to Him.

The only caveat is that we do things in a way that will not bring reproach upon God. (e.g. an unbeliever or one who does not understand coming into our meeting hearing everyone speaking in tongues without interpretation so that they say we are "mad" (crazy, not angry)).

It is notable that in most of our Protestant doctrinal statements we only have two "ordinances" that Jesus commanded we practice in our assemblies - water baptism and the Lord's Supper - the rest of what we do in our meetings in left up to us, but whatever it is we do, it should bring glory to God and not confusion.

Flag waving and dancing do nothing for me, personally, but if someone is blessed and is blessing God by using their entire body's expression, I do not judge them. At times I have found certain flagwavers annoying, but at those times I close my eyes so I cannot see them, and concentrate on God, not man.

Worship is not defined by what we do in religious meetings. Worship is defined by what we do in life, how we submit ourselves to God's authority in our daily activities and treatment of people around us. Worship is "nevertheless, not my will, but Thine be done", 24 hours a day, seven days a week, anywhere and everywhere we find ourselves.
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1/3/14 10:16 am


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Post Bro Bob
I have wanted to say something about Tom's post about being slain in the spirit. I have waited for two reasons, Randy's post just above this needed to be read more than anything I can say, and my first excursion into the topic did more harm than good.

Like Tom, I can make no Bible case for it, unless you really stretch Paul's Damascus road experience. I'll leave that to others.

I have only experienced it once. I can only say how it felt to me. The speaker that evening was quite accustomed to laying his hands on people and them falling out. My last thought was that I wasn't going to give anyone a courtesy drop. I did not lose consciousness. I did not speak. I don't recall hitting the floor, even though as I said, I was completely aware of time and space.

I felt completely calm. Not one muscle was the slightest bit tense. I didn't speak, it was almost as if I was suddenly in a dream like state, able, but not interested in observing what other people were doing.

I came out of it gradually.

Now then. I do not know what benefit it was to me. I do not crave experiencing it again. I would never seek after it or follow anyone around for another taste.

I have heard stories of an occasion where my great grandfather was taken home after church in a wagon, taking several hours to come out of it.

Another event which means much more to me occurred driving home from Goodyear in my truck with Rod Stewart singing Van Morrison's "Have I told you lately" on the radio. I did not know it had been written as a prayer. but as I began singing along as if I were singing it to my maker my heart melted and ran out my eyes.

Just me and him. Nobody to impress as to how righteous I was.

I really truly question our grasp of why God would care about what we refer to as praise for him. But I do think he missed Adam after the fall. I think he liked being involved in his daily life. Walking and talking with him in the cool of the evening. I think he enjoyed having Abraham for his friend.

These are experiences I aspire to.
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