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Dancing and flag waving in church.....input please...
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Post Bro Bob
I know better than to post anything on this. You don't want that on your tombstone: He knew better.

sigh...

So if 2 Samuel 6:14-16 is the scripture one uses for instruction on this, how do you know where to stop? Have you read the entire chapter?

It begins with David's grand parade that gets a man killed. I guess the worship got out of hand.

What will you answer when one of your dancers does it just like David did it? Half Naked. Some versions suggest completely naked.

David is not our example of how to do anything. David's actions were often a wreck. The thing we need to learn about David is that for all his negatives, the one big positive was that his heart for God was right.

Do you also have slave girls for the servants of "God's anointed".???

Hey, you got Bible for it right there in the same chapter. Let's dance!
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12/24/13 12:28 pm


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Post Try it you'll like it! Quiet Wyatt
Psalm 149:1Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.

2Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.

3Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

4For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.


6Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; KJV

The Holy Ghost will set your feet to dancing!
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12/24/13 1:53 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Dancing is a perfectly normal response to JOY. I'd much rather err on the side of being too exuberant and joyful than to think for one minute that being a joyless sourpuss is in any way pleasing to God. And yes, I've unfortunately known many supposedly Spirit-filled Christians that looked more like they'd been weaned on pickle juice rather than filled with the joyous Spirit of the living God. There are few things more pathetic and sad than joyless Christians.

Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 12/25/13 2:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
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12/24/13 2:01 pm


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Post Carolyn Smith
Bro Bob wrote:


So if 2 Samuel 6:14-16 is the scripture one uses for instruction on this, how do you know where to stop? Have you read the entire chapter?

It begins with David's grand parade that gets a man killed. I guess the worship got out of hand.


A man died because David failed to consult the Torah on how to transport the ark. Instead of consulting with the Levites (who would have known the correct way to transport it) or by looking into a copy he was supposed to have written himself (according to instructions to kings by Moses), David did what the Philistines had done to transport the ark...he set it on a new cart. So when Uzzah reached out and touched the ark (which was forbidden), God struck him dead. I fail to see what that has to do with dancing.

You're right, David was a man that messed up a lot. But when he sinned, he was man enough to admit it and repent.

There was nothing wrong with David's dancing before the Lord. He did it to honor the Lord and didn't need anyone's approval, not even his wife's.

Is there really that much difference in dancing and shouting? Yet shouting is acceptable because we've all seen that in the Pentecostal churches all our lives...although, it doesn't seem to be welcome in some churches anymore.

The things I see on this board sometimes just make me shake my head. I don't get it.
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12/24/13 9:04 pm


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Post Ernie Long
Carolyn Smith wrote:
The things I see on this board sometimes just make me shake my head. I don't get it.


I'm with you on this Carolyn, seems this board is full of closet Pharisees who want everyone to be just like them. Embarassed
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12/24/13 9:23 pm


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Post Questions? otium sanctum
Does the gift of dancing and flag waving require the gift of rhythm? We had a woman that wanted to wave her flag and she could not even keep the beat to a song. She could not clap but she wanted to wave her butterfly flag. What does a butterfly stand for from a biblical standpoint? (When asked she did not know.)
For a person to sing they must be able to carry a tune so shouldn't the waver be able to wave to the music? Just questions!
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12/24/13 9:54 pm


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Post Bro Bob
The easiest and most natural thing for me to do is to make my case all over again about David's big celebration at the beginning of the chapter.

I began that post saying that I knew better than to weigh in. This time I am going to follow my instinct.

I was responding to something someone else had said about 2 Sam 6:14-16. My response was offensive to someone I greatly admire on this board. Someone I always read, and have learned from on more than one occasion.

Whatever my input on this topic might have been it was not worth that. Since my post was public, my apology to Carolyn will be as well. I am truly sorry I did not take the time to choose the words to express my point better. Although we have never met, I admire your way of expressing yourself. You have the heart of Christ and that comes through on a regular basis.

I know without a doubt you will accept my expression of regret, because I know it is in you.

Now I am going to do what I ought to have done to begin with and hush.
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12/24/13 11:38 pm


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Post Cojak
At least I can smile at the statement by BB:

I know better than to post anything on this. You don't want that on your tombstone: He knew better.
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to BB & Carolyn, I enjoy both your posts and comments. this one I can smile at. This is a matter of opinion, but that is my opinion!!!
Love You guys. Smile
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12/24/13 11:53 pm


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Post Randy Johnson
One of the roots of this kind of expression in worship is the move from a dispensationalist mindset regarding eschatology to a "Kingdom Now", "Reconstructionist", "Dominion Theology", "Joel's Army" mindset. It began as a theological shift. The banners and flags symbolic meaning is easily lost on us if we don't see it through the eyes of "Kingdom Now".

The first I heard of this was in the 1980s from Earl Paulk and later Bill Hamon of the Prophetic Movement.

The idea was that the church was supposed to take over the kingdoms of this world, including the arts, thus dancing. The banners and flags were more in line with doing a kind of spiritual warfare and taking over the spiritual realm through the symbolism the flags and banners represented - a visible representation of what we are doing by faith and declaration in the invisible, spiritual realm against powers and principalities - taking "territory" for Jesus!
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12/25/13 1:44 pm


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Post Carolyn Smith
Thanks to Bro Bob & Cojak for your kind comments and apologies. They really were not needed, but I appreciate your sentiments.

The last several days have been hectic and stressful in the midst of our holiday season. When things calm down a bit, I will look for some scriptures about this topic, though the ones Randy shared earlier seem like pretty good ones to me.
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12/25/13 11:40 pm


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Post diakoneo
Randy Johnson wrote:
One of the roots of this kind of expression in worship is the move from a dispensationalist mindset regarding eschatology to a "Kingdom Now", "Reconstructionist", "Dominion Theology", "Joel's Army" mindset. It began as a theological shift. The banners and flags symbolic meaning is easily lost on us if we don't see it through the eyes of "Kingdom Now".

The first I heard of this was in the 1980s from Earl Paulk and later Bill Hamon of the Prophetic Movement.

The idea was that the church was supposed to take over the kingdoms of this world, including the arts, thus dancing. The banners and flags were more in line with doing a kind of spiritual warfare and taking over the spiritual realm through the symbolism the flags and banners represented - a visible representation of what we are doing by faith and declaration in the invisible, spiritual realm against powers and principalities - taking "territory" for Jesus!


Very interesting. Can you site a source on this?

Thanks Randy!
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12/27/13 5:02 pm


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Post Carolyn Smith
Dance:

Psalm 149:3 KJV
Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

Psalm 150:4 KJV
Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

Ecclesiastes 3:4 KJV
A time to weep, and a time to laugh ; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

Dancing:

Psalm 30:11 KJV
Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;

Luke 15:25 KJV *a New Testament reference*
Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick (sic) and dancing.

Not scripture, but some information here about dance in Jewish culture: http://www.myjewishlearning.com/culture/2/Theatre_and_Dance/Dance.shtml
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12/27/13 9:54 pm


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Post Carolyn Smith
I don't know much about flags, but I do know some folks use them as part of their worship.

I found some information on it here, along with scriptures they use to support their beliefs.
http://www.praisedancetoday.com/worship-flags-worship-banners/

As I said, I don't know much about it, but it seems a valid form of worship to me.

And as with all things, whatever happens in the church during worship should be done decently and in order, and it's the pastor's job to make sure that happens (fortunately or unfortunately, as it may be!) If someone is out of order, speak to them privately and set some guidelines you are comfortable with. But don't write it off because you aren't familiar with it. Listen to the Holy Spirit. If something like this is of Him, He will give you wisdom & discernment on how to handle it.
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12/27/13 10:11 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Based on all the scriptures linking praising and singing and dancing - how can we exclude any of them from our church?

And if we practice music and singing - what could be wrong with practiced (choreographed) dancing?

Do dancers bring anymore attention to themselves that soloists? I don't think so.

There's NBFs two cents. Spend it however you will.
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12/28/13 5:08 pm


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Post Randy Johnson
diakoneo wrote:
Randy Johnson wrote:
One of the roots of this kind of expression in worship is the move from a dispensationalist mindset regarding eschatology to a "Kingdom Now", "Reconstructionist", "Dominion Theology", "Joel's Army" mindset. It began as a theological shift. The banners and flags symbolic meaning is easily lost on us if we don't see it through the eyes of "Kingdom Now".

The first I heard of this was in the 1980s from Earl Paulk and later Bill Hamon of the Prophetic Movement.

The idea was that the church was supposed to take over the kingdoms of this world, including the arts, thus dancing. The banners and flags were more in line with doing a kind of spiritual warfare and taking over the spiritual realm through the symbolism the flags and banners represented - a visible representation of what we are doing by faith and declaration in the invisible, spiritual realm against powers and principalities - taking "territory" for Jesus!


Very interesting. Can you site a source on this?

Thanks Randy!


The best I remember is hearing Paulk preach on TV in the 80s before his scandals came to the surface. He was kind of the public face of the engine driving Kingdom Now theology among the masses during that time period. This link to the history of ICCC mentions Earl Paulk. http://www.theiccc.com/history.html

Here is the Christian Research Institute's take on it:

http://www.equip.org/perspectives/dominion-theology-reconstructionism-and-the-latter-rain-movement-what-are-they/

There are also Bill Hamon's books on the Prophetic beginning with Prophets and Personal Prophecy (3 books in the series)
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12/29/13 1:12 am


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Post I honestly heard one teenager compare it to... roughridercog
The high school flag team.

"It's for those not tough enough to play football, talented enough to play in the band, or pretty enough to be a cheerleader."

I nearly sprayed coffee laughing and made a mental note to share it. Laughing Laughing
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Post What is the purpose of worship? Mike Burgner
The purpose of worship it to FOCUS on Jesus Christ. The goal of a worship service is to get our attention OFF ourselves, those around us, outside distractions, and turn our attention to God. A successful worship service is one that takes the focus off ourselves and our issues and gives us the perspective of God.

A worship leader, worship team, and band are not supposed to entertain us and make us focus on them and how talented they are. A good worship leader gets the congregation to focus on Jesus. They pick songs that encourage people to focus on Jesus.

Having said this..... Flags are all about focusing on the person who is waving it. To me flags or banners are a major distraction to real worship. There may be a place for them in a drama, or for a dance team, but I personally feel they will only hinder people from focusing on Jesus.
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12/29/13 9:18 pm


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Post Re: I honestly heard one teenager compare it to... Cojak
roughridercog wrote:
The high school flag team.

"It's for those not tough enough to play football, talented enough to play in the band, or pretty enough to be a cheerleader."

I nearly sprayed coffee laughing and made a mental note to share it. Laughing Laughing




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12/29/13 9:22 pm


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Post Re: What is the purpose of worship? Randy Johnson
Mike Burgner wrote:
The purpose of worship it to FOCUS on Jesus Christ. The goal of a worship service is to get our attention OFF ourselves, those around us, outside distractions, and turn our attention to God. A successful worship service is one that takes the focus off ourselves and our issues and gives us the perspective of God.

A worship leader, worship team, and band are not supposed to entertain us and make us focus on them and how talented they are. A good worship leader gets the congregation to focus on Jesus. They pick songs that encourage people to focus on Jesus.

Having said this..... Flags are all about focusing on the person who is waving it. To me flags or banners are a major distraction to real worship. There may be a place for them in a drama, or for a dance team, but I personally feel they will only hinder people from focusing on Jesus.


No, no, a thousand times No!

Flags are all about us proclaiming victory, rallying God's troops, making war in the heavenlies, taking captive principalities and powers, and taking ground in the spiritual realm for the Kingdom!

Jesus is waiting on us to restore all things! He must remain in heaven until the Church rises up and becomes the whole measure of Christ in earth. Our flag wavers are our standard bearers, showing us where to rally ourselves as we take over the kingdoms of this world for Christ!
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12/30/13 10:17 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
I have known several flag wavers over the years. They were no more ego-driven and self-centered than the typical church soloist, musician, preacher or songleader. Most just loved the Lord and wanted to express their praise in this way and inspire others to joyously celebrate the goodness of the Lord. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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12/30/13 10:58 am


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