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Buck Marshall resigns, surrenders credentials
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Post theElder
You are correct, Bro Bob but I would be very surprised if there are very many churches where the Trustees are not also members of the Elder or Pastor Council as the name may be. Acts Enthusiast
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7/15/13 11:27 am


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Post Carolyn Smith SHINTEX
Any purchase of property has to be signed by the State AB and the State Council before a local board of trustees can sign to make a purchase.

No matter how this turned out the State council members (same council members that removed Buck according to the AB) are some of the same men that agreed to loan the money which put the church in debt.
They sign without looking into anything, do not follow up, do not council the pastors and these are the men in charge of the State finances.
When things begin to go down they blame the pastor for bad decisions. If it was not a good idea 6 1/2 years ago they should have never approved the re-finance.
Buck couldn't have borrowed the money if the AB and State council would have said no
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7/15/13 11:29 am


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Post bigchurchmouse
Since there clearly were many people who share the responsibility for some bad financial decisions, it does not seem fair that Buck Marshall is the only person whose position (and livelihood) was threatened. The rest seemed to have nothing at stake. So sad. Golf Cart Mafia Capo
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7/15/13 12:11 pm


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Post Whose responsibility? theedmister
SHINTEX wrote:
Any purchase of property has to be signed by the State AB and the State Council before a local board of trustees can sign to make a purchase.

No matter how this turned out the State council members (same council members that removed Buck according to the AB) are some of the same men that agreed to loan the money which put the church in debt.
They sign without looking into anything, do not follow up, do not council the pastors and these are the men in charge of the State finances.
When things begin to go down they blame the pastor for bad decisions. If it was not a good idea 6 1/2 years ago they should have never approved the re-finance.
Buck couldn't have borrowed the money if the AB and State council would have said no


As I said above "The state makes decisions on the integrity of the pastor and elders. This is under good faith that the loan will be taken care of."

No matter how much blame you want to put on the state or council, the pastor had the information. Also, I wonder how this board would have lit up if the council did say 'no' to the loan. The council and ab at the time made the decision by the finances and attendance, I assume.

Funny part is I don't even know any of the parties but I have been pastoring for a while and taken out loans and built. It was more based on my integrity and trust in me as a pastor and vision that I got approval than anything.
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7/15/13 2:56 pm


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Post Carolyn Smith
Thanks for reminding me how the local trustees function.
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7/15/13 11:34 pm


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Post Cojak
Truth is many ministers (Council ready or not) are poor financial managers. Every church should be run debt FREE, or the debt be so low it they lost half their finances, they could still pay the bills.

EVERY pastor should begin his life living debt free. If he didn't he should strive to reach that goal. He should be a teacher for his people to live debt free.

It was the most solid advice my dad ever gave me. (Son, owe no body handle God's money right, I guarantee he will feed you). He lived virtually debt free for the 50 years he pastored. If he could not pay for it, he did not buy it. The same for his churches. If they were in debt when he went, all but one were debt free when he left.

I may have missed a lot of vacations, never drove but one new car, but I was never under the pressure my peers were under.

There is a lot to be said about a council (Isn't that the meaning of the group) advising a pastor with his head in the sky, you needs to save some money before launching into a big building program. etc..

Of course that is just an opinion from experience. Smile
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7/16/13 1:17 am


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Post Ernie Long
Cojak wrote:
Truth is many ministers (Council ready or not) are poor financial managers. Every church should be run debt FREE, or the debt be so low it they lost half their finances, they could still pay the bills.

EVERY pastor should begin his life living debt free. If he didn't he should strive to reach that goal. He should be a teacher for his people to live debt free.
It was the most solid advice my dad ever gave me. (Son, owe no body handle God's money right, I guarantee he will feed you). He lived virtually debt free for the 50 years he pastored. If he could not pay for it, he did not buy it. The same for his churches. If they were in debt when he went, all but one were debt free when he left.

I may have missed a lot of vacations, never drove but one new car, but I was never under the pressure my peers were under.

There is a lot to be said about a council (Isn't that the meaning of the group) advising a pastor with his head in the sky, you needs to save some money before launching into a big building program. etc..

Of course that is just an opinion from experience. Smile


Replace Pastor with Christian and I'll agree with this statement. We preach the Gospel every Sunday and we see sinners walk in and walk out of the church. Just because we preach it and live it doesn't mean everyone will respond and follow our example.

My only debt is a car payment, so should I expect everyone in my church to have only one debt also?
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7/16/13 5:40 am


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Post georgiapath
Cojak wrote:
Truth is many ministers (Council ready or not) are poor financial managers. Every church should be run debt FREE, or the debt be so low it they lost half their finances, they could still pay the bills.

EVERY pastor should begin his life living debt free. If he didn't he should strive to reach that goal. He should be a teacher for his people to live debt free.

It was the most solid advice my dad ever gave me. (Son, owe no body handle God's money right, I guarantee he will feed you). He lived virtually debt free for the 50 years he pastored. If he could not pay for it, he did not buy it. The same for his churches. If they were in debt when he went, all but one were debt free when he left.

I may have missed a lot of vacations, never drove but one new car, but I was never under the pressure my peers were under.

There is a lot to be said about a council (Isn't that the meaning of the group) advising a pastor with his head in the sky, you needs to save some money before launching into a big building program. etc..

Of course that is just an opinion from experience. Smile



Good post, as always and good advice.
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7/16/13 7:21 am


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Post Seeing my life debated is...interesting Buck Marshall
It's hard to put into words sometimes how strange all this is. I can say that in everything I have done, I was after integrity. My grandmother used to say, "There's no shame in being poor, but there is in being dirty." I couldn't control the economic changes that hit our congregation. I wasn't idle or disengaged with my fiscal responsibility. Should I have acted sooner?....yes...I have already owned that. My point, I guess, is that these were mistakes of the head not the heart. I was trusting God to turn some things around for these people who had lived out the scriptures...these hard times struck faithful, liberal, cheerful givers. Also, I heard the words of those men 3 years ago..."pay the ToT and God will bless you". I believe that still.

I am Pentecostal...I still believe in suddenlies.

So, we were poor so to speak...but we were not dirty. throughout this process I have felt like David holding up Saul's swatch saying, "I am not who you say I am."

My integrity is intact. Perhaps, one day, even state council members and overseers will know that to be true. But, if not, I know who I am, how I have walked and that regardless of the mistakes I made and will make...I am not disposable. There are Giants...but I am not a grasshopper.
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7/18/13 2:43 am


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Post Re: Seeing my life debated is...interesting Nature Boy Florida
Buck Marshall wrote:


My integrity is intact. Perhaps, one day, even state council members and overseers will know that to be true. But, if not, I know who I am, how I have walked and that regardless of the mistakes I made and will make...I am not disposable. There are Giants...but I am not a grasshopper.


Amen.
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7/18/13 5:46 am


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Post bigchurchmouse
Good post, Buck. The great truth is that you do not have to answer to man. God sees your heart. No MAN knows your heart. With God's help, I believe the best is yet to come for you and your congregation. Please do not let a root of bitterness spring up in your heart. That can destroy a person. Golf Cart Mafia Capo
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7/18/13 5:53 am


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Post Just thought I would post this here as well Buck Marshall
I have posted an update...

Go Herehttp://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?t=75570
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7/18/13 1:24 pm


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Post This Board Buck Marshall
I have to add something here. I have always had a sort of love/hate feeling about actscelerate. During this time...I have to say that this board has helped me in so many ways. Being able to take the events and share my heart to the "church" nationally has been of singular importance. But, the overwhelming support through calls, texts, emails, PM's, FaceBook messages and posts have been so life giving. Not to mention the fact that this thread has had over 22,000 views so far and all related threads are well over 30,000 views is really encouraging. It says...we are concerned. That type of attention is helpful when your wanting to share your heart and perhaps influence change in how we ALL lead. I just wanted to say...thank you. So, I am thankful for this forum....for the people who comprise it.

I am truly grateful.
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7/19/13 3:59 pm


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Post Re: Whose responsibility? Nature Boy Florida
theedmister wrote:


As I said above "The state makes decisions on the integrity of the pastor and elders. This is under good faith that the loan will be taken care of."


You keep stating this...where in the Minutes can I find this?

I guess I just assumed that someone granting loan requests had a little bit of mortgage broker background.

I can't believe this is true until I read it in an official COG document.

And then, I will make sure I submit an amendment before the next GA.
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7/19/13 4:43 pm


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Post Re: Whose responsibility? theedmister
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
theedmister wrote:


As I said above "The state makes decisions on the integrity of the pastor and elders. This is under good faith that the loan will be taken care of."


You keep stating this...where in the Minutes can I find this?

I guess I just assumed that someone granting loan requests had a little bit of mortgage broker background.

I can't believe this is true until I read it in an official COG document.

And then, I will make sure I submit an amendment before the next GA.


So a pastor meets with the bank officials, evaluates the interest rate, works on the budget of the church, presents it to the church and the elders and then gets a vote of from the church before proceeding to the state.

With all this intact the council evaluates this. They take the pastors word in good faith that he will do what it takes to pay the bills. When it comes down to it if the pastors says no they don't proceed if he says go generally they trust him.

I have personally went without at paycheck to pay the bills of the church. Why? because this is my integrity. I have no regret and the Lord has really blessed me and my family.
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7/21/13 9:45 pm


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Post Pastors and finances... Clint Wills
Pastors aren't always good with money, but do they need to be?? Pastors need to be good with people, and out of that develop relationships with people who can fill their voids. I think we want pastors to be great at everything, but they just aren't. Yes, they need to be able to handle themselves well in all areas of ministry...finances being one of the biggest responsibilities of a leader of a church. However, I don't need my pastor to be a CPA. I also don't need my pastor to be a musician, tech nerd, or PhD level theologian. They may need to able to handle money, theology, computers, and even music at times, but they don't have to do it all themselves.

I think the culture that tells pastors that 1) they need to be great at everything and 2) they can't let their walls down, contribute to churches having financial problems. If a pastor was told, "dude, you are horrible with money. Find someone in your church (or another pastor friend if needed) to help you with your money" it could be tremendously free-ing as well as fiscally responsible.

There is a young man pastoring 30 minutes from us, and it's his first church. He lost a family because he wanted a debit card for the church checking account. He asked my dad for advise, and my dad told him that no pastor needs a church debit card. We run about 5 times the people and have 4 at least part-time staff members and there is no debit card for the church. We turn in receipts and the clerk writes checks. It was wisdom, however, for that young pastor to ask a more experienced man (pastor or not) for advise on that subject. Lets build HELP into our culture!!
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7/22/13 2:22 am


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Post Buck Marshall
bigchurchmouse wrote:
Good post, Buck. The great truth is that you do not have to answer to man. God sees your heart. No MAN knows your heart. With God's help, I believe the best is yet to come for you and your congregation. Please do not let a root of bitterness spring up in your heart. That can destroy a person.


Thanks for that. Truth is...I don't mind answering to man as far as accountability is concerned. And, I do want you to know that I truly am not bitter. I was hurt, bewildered, frustrated, angry and sad...but I cast all that on Jesus...what else could I do? God has blessed me, my family and New Hope church so much...it's truly the manifestation of the declared realization of the last 10 years....God is my source....nothing else. Of course it's not over...but we are moving forward...so thankful for that.
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7/27/13 10:48 am


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Post Cojak
Ernie Long wrote:


My only debt is a car payment, so should I expect everyone in my church to have only one debt also?


I am not sure of that statement. But it would not hurt to teach that very thing to Christians as they mature.

We (Business men, pastors and Christians) have been amiss by not teaching or having good management skills.

Debt free living IS POSSIBLE, but not possible immediately if you have a lot of debts when you realize it was a mistake. BUT CHURCHES AND INDIVIDUALS can work at it, it takes time and some sacrifice, but the rewards are worth it.

I have heard ministers say "keep the church in debt and they won't become lazy." it seems to me one could keep people excited being able to finance NEW works, aid missionaries and assiste the widows and orphans, instead of interest on super big loans. Shocked

I notice it has worked well for Central in Charlotte. Smile
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7/27/13 11:17 am


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Post Buck Marshall
Tom Sterbens wrote:
bigchurchmouse wrote:
Good post, Buck. The great truth is that you do not have to answer to man. God sees your heart. No MAN knows your heart. With God's help, I believe the best is yet to come for you and your congregation. Please do not let a root of bitterness spring up in your heart. That can destroy a person.

I "DO" get the sentiment of your post...good encouragement...gracious words.

There is a "however" for me... I disagree with you in this regard...it is NOT a "great truth" that we do not have to answer to man. In fact we DO.

I have mentioned here before that I do a teaching series entitled (25 Questions God Asks a Leader." They are taken from the 15 leadership characteristics of 1 Tim 3, combined with the 10 non-redundant qualities Paul writes in Titus (obviously a total of 25).

One of those referenced in Titus is a negation of of the term for "submission." It is translated "rebellion," from the term that means "not submitted" or "not ordered under." So the warning in Titus may very well read, "one who leads should NOT be a person who is not-under..."

In God's world order, called the Kingdom of God, leadership is not a place of being above having to answer to someone. See Jesus on leadership.... "the rulers of the Gentiles seek to Lord over..." (cf. Mark 10:42).

In fact, one of the great leadership problems we face today is the entitled disposition of those who lead and the "I-don't-have-to-answer-to-you," mentality. As a leader I give answers about my actions because my modeled behavior is the means by those I lead learn how to make decisions and/or lead.


I agree... That is why I referenced that I had no issue with answering to man. For years I have taught leaders that the Centurion had it right...He had authority because he was UNDER authority. There of course is more to that but I just wanted to say that more explicitly.
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7/27/13 1:01 pm


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Post Buck Marshall
Sorry Tom Sterbens, I think I hijacked your post...lol! Acts-celerater
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7/30/13 11:16 am


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