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Are there apostles today???
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Post Re: Charismatic Entertainers Link
Dan Eason wrote:
Diamonds have neither the sparkle nor clarity of cubic zirconia. I certainly believe that (Joel 2:28,29 Acts 2:14-39) there has been no change in the working of the Holy Spirit among mankind since the day of Pentecost. Surely, there are men and women today anointed to serve as apostles and prophets. However, those who promote themselves as Apostles and Prophets, IMHO, are by virtue of their own proclaimation, not.


I can agree that not all the glitters or pretends to is gold. But your last statement there contradicts scriptures. Paul was an apostle, and 'promoted' himself as such repeatedly when he introduced himself in various epistles.

If Biblical apostles could call themselves apostles back in the first century, there is no reason to think a modern apostle who identifies what his calling is is not apostle by virtue of recognizing his own ministry role.

It does seem like a lot of people are calling themselves 'apostles' because that is supposedly the highest rank out there, and they want to highest rank.
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3/10/13 8:20 pm


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Post Re: Charismatic Entertainers chainrattler
Link wrote:
It does seem like a lot of people are calling themselves 'apostles' because that is supposedly the highest rank out there, and they want to highest rank.


And they want to justify taking money from churches since they are neither pastors or evangelists as has been traditionally supported.

It's all about the money, really.
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3/10/13 10:14 pm


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Post Nick Park
I don't see any teaching in Scripture that suggests apostleship was a temporary gift to the church. Indeed, the passage in Ephesians concerning the fourfold ministry would appear to indicate that the Church needs apostles until the return of Christ.

I do feel uncomfortable with those who claim the title 'apostle' for themselves, particularly when most of them seem to display remarkably low levels of discernment. For example, it was the self-proclaimed apostles who ended up with egg all over their faces by uncritically endorsing the antics of Todd Bentley.

But there are genuine apostles at work in the Church today. I have seen a sacrificial & fruitful ministry in Northern India, one encompassing over 100,0000 converts and where miraculous healings regularly occur, that was started through the life of one dedicated man. His evangelism, victory over persecution, church planting and miracles IMHO meet the criteria of an apostle, even though he never claimed the title.
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Post Bro Bob
And Bro Park, explain if you will, the difference in usefulness and purpose to the Kingdom between your own ministry and calling to his, and which authorities he would possess that you do not. Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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3/11/13 9:32 am


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Post Nick Park
Tom Sterbens wrote:

Nick - talk a little more about what you think an apostle might look like today.


I would see several key distinctives in an apostle's ministry:

1. Their authority is not be confined to one local church, but is translocal. For example, the apostle Paul writes with authority to various churches, including some that he had not personally planted (eg Rome).

2. They have a clear calling from God to engage in foundational ministry that breaks new ground for the Gospel. St. Patrick bringing Christianity to Ireland would be an example of such apostolic calling.

3. The working of miracles should accompany their ministry.

4. They empower and raise up other leaders. For example, Paul travelled with a team and raised up leaders such as Timothy and Titus.

5. They plant churches.

6. I think it quite probable that suffering persecution for the sake of the Kingdom is a mark of apostleship (now, that might reduce the number of people who want to claim the title of 'apostle').

Bro Bob wrote:
And Bro Park, explain if you will, the difference in usefulness and purpose to the Kingdom between your own ministry and calling to his, and which authorities he would possess that you do not.


I work on a limited scale in a small country, with very few miracles occuring, and where there is no persecution.

I'm about as far off being an apostle as I am being General Overseer of the Church of God. Very Happy
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3/11/13 9:51 am


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Post sheepdogandy
Sounds like Bro Clendennen and Bro Choudary to me. Very Happy
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Post Some Thoughts Mark Hardgrove
If you need a card, a title, and a desk plate to tell other people that you are an apostle, then you probably aren't one.

The "five-fold" ministries in Ephesians are spiritual giftings to the church more than they are offices.

The Pastoral Epistles of Paul were the final epistles written by Paul, and he has much to say about the offices of overseer, deacon, and even widows, but says nothing about the office of apostle (other than noting that he is one), and if God intended the office of apostle to continue in the sense that Paul or the other 12 were apostles, it seems to me there would be something in Pastoral Epistles concerning the "office."

I believe in the continuing gift of apostle, but it is no more an office than speaking in tongues is an office. If you have the gift then reach unreached people groups, take the gospel to places it hasn't penetrated yet, preach, teach, and plant churches, and let everyone else worry about titles and offices.
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Post How do you feel 1 Corinthians 12: chainrattler
27 Now you [all - plural] are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church [in the assembly], first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then... fits in this discussion?

This is the only Scripture that I can think of that has a cardinal ranking of ministries in the church (e.g. first, second, third).

I believe this could correspond to Paul's listing in Ephesians 4. Noticeably the evangelist is missing here, and could the "teacher" that is mentioned be a reference to pastor-teachers?

If there is a connection here with Ephesians 4, what kind of connection might it be, and what implications for church government? Especially since Paul lists prophets in rank order ahead of teachers?
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Post Link
I probably know a few apostles, most of them as email pen-pals through discussion forums, including one that used to be around that I moderated on church planting. I think I may have met one or two in person.

If someone has planted churches through winning souls (not just putting together a better program than a church down the street), done miracles, signs and wonders, preaches and teaches the word of God faithfully, and has evidence of good fruit... and tells me that God has sent him as an apostle, I see no reason to doubt that. I've known other people who believed they are called to be apostles who haven't accomplished that much yet, and I try not to be too critical. They may not have fully stepped into their callings yet.

I don't really see the connection between much of the the NAR thinking on apostleship that I've been exposed to and what I see in the Bible, though. Watchman Nee, some of the house church movement, and maybe some early Pentecostals seemed to have a better sense of what apostles were, IMO.

The Bible says they and other gifts are given.... till we reach the full measure of the stature of Christ. I don't think that's happened yet. I still see people being tossed to and throw by winds of doctrine, too.

It's funny how, when it comes to 'church government' issues, a lot of Christians will be very comfortable with a made-up system of church government that doesn't even show up in the Bible, but reject Biblical concepts if the church they grew up in or got saved in doesn't recognize them.

Where is there any support in the Bible for one man called 'the pastor' who operates as church CEO, does just about all the preaching, and is the one salaried minister? I just don't see it. The word 'pastors' shows up one time in the KJV of the NT in Ephesians 4:11, and people read their church experience back into the word.

The early churches had elders. Apparently the elders worked together on the city level. They actually had to live up to certain requirements and have good stable households. They were to be 'apt to teach' but that doesn't mean they were the only teachers. Hebrews 5 indicates that mature believers should become teachers after a certain period of time. I Corinthians 14 indicates that 'every one of you' spoke in church, teaching prophesying, etc. "The pastor" doesn't even show up in the most detailed set of instructions on what to do in church in the whole New Testament.

We can rely on our own church experience (instead of scripture) for how to run local churches, I suppose. But if we get rid of apostleship, we don't really have much to go on when it comes to establishing new churches on the mission field. Where is the missionary's authority, Biblically, to appoint elders, for example? If the Lord has sent him as an apostle, and the saints recognize it and separate him for the work, and the new churches are his work, it makes sense in light of scriptural teaching on apostleship that he appoint elders in the churches and set things in order.
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Post Bro Bob
My dad loaned me his ancient copy of Like a Mighty Army last week. Sad to admit I have never read it. Weird stuff showing up in my bucket list these days.

Bro Park and Link have really given me cause to re-think the position I have stated on this question for some time.

Between the pages of the book, as a bookmark, there was an entire copy of the MINUTES from 1906 at Camp Creek, NC. Interesting reading. They really encouraged members to take the advice of what had seemed good to those in attendance and give up tobacco completely. They asked for men in the churches to report back next year on how successful they were at it.

I must say, the mood seemed very New Testament in how they conducted business.

I recently responded to a post by Bro Park and posted a copy of two questions and answers from the 1924 and 1927 Assemblies. The GO giving those answers was most likely F J Lee. Before him was A J Tomlinson. I expect if we ever had men in the CoG who behaved themselves as NT apostles, and who came pretty cotton pickin close to being accepted as having final "whatsoever ye bind" authority, it would have been men like that.

Not sure how they would respond if they were here today if someone were to ask them if they had been apostles. Maybe after I read the book.

Several things bother me a lot in yielding on the question.

1) Paul acknowledged that he was "the least of the apostles" and "not worthy to be called an apostle". Yet he also claimed to have been an apostle, "born out of due season". Think about that. He wrote half the New Testament. He disputed with the apostles in Jerusalem over doctrine and persuaded them.

2) Men of far greater demonstrated power than anyone alive today are never referred to as apostles. Though not actually called that, Stephen and Philip, the first two chosen under the rules established by the 12 as mere servant / deacons, dwarfed any minister I have ever known or heard of. Yet Philip was absolutely subject to Peter and John when they arrive in Acts 8.

3) Rev 2:2 praises Ephasus for trying those who claimed to be apostles but were not, and found them to be liars. THESE kind of apostles we still have without doubt. And Christ warned us of worse than this. He said there would be false Christs, and that they would perform great miracles. Folks, if a false apostle of today can delude us, then what chance do we stand before a false Christ? How can we prepare against that?

We have apostles who can't keep a simple vow. I'd rather have one faithful old saint on the 5th row back than a thousand of these self promoting fakes who merchandise special access to the Almighty. Tares in with the wheat.

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Post a quick thought or two Poimen
I believe apostolic gifting remains, but do not think there are any such as the 12. That said, I can't help but wonder if such as these are not necessary for the visible reunification of the divided/denominated church prior to the return of Christ.
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Post Re: a quick thought or two chainrattler
Poimen wrote:
I believe apostolic gifting remains, but do not think there are any such as the 12. That said, I can't help but wonder if such as these are not necessary for the visible reunification of the divided/denominated church prior to the return of Christ.


Where is the Scriptural support for an outwardly visible reunification?

The only visibly unified Church I was ever taught about was the false church that supports the Antichrist.

We don't have to have the same name over the door to be united with other true believers spiritually, do we?
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Post Some thoughts... Aaron Scott
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Post To name a few Poimen
chainrattler wrote:
Poimen wrote:
I believe apostolic gifting remains, but do not think there are any such as the 12. That said, I can't help but wonder if such as these are not necessary for the visible reunification of the divided/denominated church prior to the return of Christ.


Where is the Scriptural support for an outwardly visible reunification?

The only visibly unified Church I was ever taught about was the false church that supports the Antichrist.

We don't have to have the same name over the door to be united with other true believers spiritually, do we?


Same name over the door, no. I am talking more about unity than union, though I believe greater experience of the one (unity) will result in greater manifestation of the other (union). I also affirm our inherent spiritual unity and union in Christ.

Nevertheless, the denominated church fails of the scriptural mandate to let their be no schism in the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:25), that there be no divisions among us, but that we be joined together in the same mind and the same judgment (1 Corinthians 1:10), to properly reflect the unifying power of the love of God in Christ -- which Christ Himself prayed would be known and seen among His disciples, whom He prayed would all be one AND perfected in one , so that the world may believe God had sent Him and had loved us as He loved Jesus (John 17:20-24).
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Post Link
Bro Bob wrote:
1) Paul acknowledged that he was "the least of the apostles" and "not worthy to be called an apostle". Yet he also claimed to have been an apostle, "born out of due season". Think about that. He wrote half the New Testament. He disputed with the apostles in Jerusalem over doctrine and persuaded them.


"Born out of due time" means he was born too early, not too late. The word used is for a pre-mature baby. Back then, premature babies had a low mortality rate. He was like a baby born early that managed to survive.

So the word does not mean that he was born too late, that he should have been one of the Twelve and was born half a generation too late for it.

Quote:

2) Men of far greater demonstrated power than anyone alive today are never referred to as apostles. Though not actually called that, Stephen and Philip, the first two chosen under the rules established by the 12 as mere servant / deacons, dwarfed any minister I have ever known or heard of. Yet Philip was absolutely subject to Peter and John when they arrive in Acts 8.


Power alone does not make a man an apostle.

In Acts 21 and 22, it sure looks like Paul made himself subject to James and the elders of the church when he visited Jerusalem.

Quote:

3) Rev 2:2 praises Ephasus for trying those who claimed to be apostles but were not, and found them to be liars.


If the number of apostles were just limited to the 12 and a couple of others, then why would the Ephesian church have had to test people who claimed to be apostles? They could just say "You aren't Paul or Barnabas or one of the 12" or something like that.
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Post Re: Some Thoughts Nick Park
Mark Hardgrove wrote:

The "five-fold" ministries in Ephesians are spiritual giftings to the church more than they are offices.

The Pastoral Epistles of Paul were the final epistles written by Paul, and he has much to say about the offices of overseer, deacon, and even widows, but says nothing about the office of apostle (other than noting that he is one), and if God intended the office of apostle to continue in the sense that Paul or the other 12 were apostles, it seems to me there would be something in Pastoral Epistles concerning the "office."

I believe in the continuing gift of apostle, but it is no more an office than speaking in tongues is an office. If you have the gift then reach unreached people groups, take the gospel to places it hasn't penetrated yet, preach, teach, and plant churches, and let everyone else worry about titles and offices.


Mark, would you not see a distinction between those who regularly function in a role and those who might very occasionally exercise a gift?

For example, a sister might prophesy in church one or twice in her life, but I think most of us would see that as different from someone being a prophet. Similarly virtually all believers are enabled by the Spirit to teach someone else something at one time or another - but does that make every believer a teacher as described in Ephesians 4:11?
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Post apostolic? Joe Nail
1. i think and believe the gifts up to and including apostle we are discussing are for all believers.

2. i also believe we should seek them as part of our growth in the journey Christ has called us.

3. i believe all of these gifts are active and present in the modern day church as gifts exercised by believers regardless of of race, sex, or age.

4. these gifts are given to individuals as needed in what ever circumstance they find themselves faced with as they follow Christ in their day to day life.
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Post Re: apostolic? Change Agent
[quote="Joe Nail"]1. i think and believe the gifts up to and including apostle we are discussing are for all believers.

2. i also believe we should seek them as part of our growth in the journey Christ has called us.

3. i believe all of these gifts are active and present in the modern day church as gifts exercised by believers regardless of of race, sex, or age.

4. these gifts are given to individuals as needed in what ever circumstance they find themselves faced with as they follow Christ in their day to day life.[/quote]

I like what Joe Hail stated. You are not likely to see an apostle in a COG setting where they are not welcomed or talked about in a nice way. The COG system where pastors rule and reign have no room for prophets or apostles. I'm sure there are some exceptions. If you go to any of the meetings in the US hosted by Dr. Billy Wilson (COG) you will find well known invited prophets and apostles in the group. The last one I attended at Regent University also had Dr. Mark Williams in attendance.

I saw an article from J. Lee Grady where he comments on meeting 2 young Chinese girls and between them they had established over 5,000 house churches in China. The churches were established even though they would be imprisoned if caught. These girls could be apostles.
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Post apostolic Joe Nail
our churches are not receptive to this idea as a whole. it would mean the relinquishing of power by the leadership to the individual. as individuals not a part of the clergy are only sheep and not to be trusted with such gifts. they must have a shepherd. once a person has been trained and proven him or herself faithful fulfilling the requirements of a disciple they should follow Christ on into their given ministry. our churches for the most part seek to keep these individuals in the building to support and grow the crowd which is fine if that is their calling but some are meant to move into some of these so called offices but not allowed to until completely controlled by the leadership, denomination, or what ever structure is in place where these believers exist. this is wrong, so you end up with a very dissatisfied group of people trying to fit into a structure that is not part of thier journey with Christ. they must be given the room to grow or leave with the blessing of the church this sadly does not happen. they must be controlled and forced to stay in the sheep fold for their own protection.
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Post apostle Joe Nail
apostolos:
1) a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ
b) in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers
1) of Barnabas
2) of Timothy and Silvanus

apastello:1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
b) to order one to depart, send off
c) to drive away

from

apo:
1) of separation
a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
b) of separation of a part from the whole
1) where of a whole some part is taken
c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
d) of a state of separation, that is of distance
1) physical, of distance of place
2) temporal, of distance of time
2) of origin
a) of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
b) of origin of a cause

stello:
1) to set, place, set in order, arrange
a) to fit out, to prepare, equip
b) to prepare one's self, to fit out for one's self
c) to fit out for one's own use
d) to prepare one's self, to fit out for one's self
e) to fit out for one's own use
1) arranging, providing for this, etc.
2) to bring together, contract, shorten
a) to diminish, check, cause to cease
b) to cease to exist
c) to remove one's self, withdraw one's self, to depart
d) to abstain from familiar intercourse with one

So the question remains are people still set apart to write, carry a message, lay foundations for works yet to be seen. what about returning to the places the first apostles laid foundations that are now long destroyed and laid waste in town and cities where it is a death sentence to be an apostle (one set aside for Christ work). are we so arrogant that we think we can define and limit God's call to what fits in the 4 walls of the church?
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