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 Re: End-Time Great Revival |
Quiet Wyatt |
| MS7777 wrote: | I've been having a debate with another pastor as to whether we should be expecting a last great move of God before the return of Jesus to this world.
He maintains that the prophecy of Joel was fulfilled at the day of Pentecost (Peter said, this is that!) and that there is no basis in believing that there will be a final great move of God. When I read Joel 2, I see a former and a latter rain and a time when the two are combined into one former & latter rain. Now of course I am aware that we should never base any doctrine upon 1 verse but I have always heard and personally felt that the Day of Pentecost fulfilled the former rain, the 1900's revival fulfilled the latter rain (we're in it) and that there would be a former/latter last move of God. He says the Charismatic Outpuring of the 70's & 80's fulfilled the last of the last and that all we are waiting upon is the Return of Jesus. I have heard and read many prophecies about this going all the way back to Azusa St.
What do you think & do you have any basis for what you think based on Scripture? Just wondering. |
Your friend has no more basis for claiming the Charismatic Movement of the 70s and 80s was "the last of the last" than someone claiming Azusa Street or any other past move of God was the last of the last.
I don't know of any specific scriptures which would plainly state that there will be one last great move of God before the return of Christ to earth, other than the promise to pour out His Spirit upon all flesh in the last days. I believe whether or not Christians experience revival in their day largely depends on the level of hunger and thirst they have, the sincerity and depth of their repentance, AND the greatness of their FAITH for God to move "sovereignly."
I always have found the use of the phrase, "We're waiting for a sovereign move of God" rather humorous and also sad, as if God is somehow really NOT willing any longer to pour out of His Spirit, as if He really is instead willing that many would perish and not be brought to repentance by his kindness, as if the Church no longer needs to be empowered and sent out to accomplish its mission in history. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12802
2/12/13 4:33 pm
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| Re: End time revivals |
PastorJackson |
What??i never said end time but major, Over 4million attended and millions were saved, I was there for 2 years with 10-15000 a night there from all over the world! I can't believe you could be so casual about a very mighty move of God! Ministries all over the world came from it mine included, there had been noting in the history close to it. Like I said just because you don't agree does not change the facts. | Randy Johnson wrote: | | PastorJackson wrote: | I experienced the "supposed" Brownsville revival and I saw what happened there I know what happened to me and to thousands of people I met so if you want to be critical I would not about moves of God. How can a child of God be so blase about a move where multiple thousands were added to the kingdom of God? The moves of the 90s were a revival in that it turned our hearts toward God and the impact is still felt weather you choose to accept it or not does not negate the truth.
I wonder how many here would have made the same statement of Acts, that it had to be a "supposed" move in the upper room, these could not be God since it did not happen as we believed it would "We think the past was a model we need to expect the future to be like. " and they acted all crazy drunk and all. SO we must ignore the fruit of the thousands added. I see way too much of this attitude in the Christian world today.
All I can say about the revivals is look to Africa and Asia now and see the revival there. Look up. |
The Brownsville Revival wasn't big enough to count for what is being talked about here.
There are over 7 billion people on this planet, that's 7,000,000,000.
"Thousands were brought into the kingdom" - perhaps.
1% (0.01) of 7,000,000,000 (7 billion) is 70,000,000 (70 million)
One tenth of 1% (0.001) is 7,000,000 (7 million)
One hundreth of 1% (0.0001) is 700,000 (7 hundred thousand, almost a million)
One thousandth of 1% (0.00001) is 70,000 (Seventy thousand)
One ten-thousandth of 1% (0.000001) is 7,000 (Seven thousand)
Let's suppose for the sake of argument that between 7,000 and 70,000 were saved at Brownsville.
In comparison with the population of the entire world, whom God so loved that He gave His only begotten Son, Brownsville does not qualify as a Great End Time Revival.
Let's suppose that 70,000 got saved at Brownsville, that means that after the Brownsville Revival 6,999,930,000 (that's six billion, nine hundred ninety-nine million, nine hundred and thirty thousand) people were left lost and going to hell.
Even if 70,000 got saved at Brownsville that means that 99.999% of the world's population remained lost.
I don't know about you, but I would hardly define that as a Great End Time Revival.
Even if you take away the number who claim to already be Chrfstians, your stats don't look much better.
Let's suppose there are 2,000,000,000 (that's two billion) genuine Christians on earth (the real number is probably between 1 and 2 billion). That is still only 28.57% of the world's population that is saved. That leaves 71.43% (almost three-fourths) of the world's population lost and going to hell.
How many of that 71.43% would need to get saved to qualify as a Great End Time Revival? Remember, God loves the entire world, not just the United States, and He is no respecter of persons. |
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Are the things you are living for, worth Christ dying for?
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Posts: 4750
2/13/13 3:26 am
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| Re: End time revivals |
Randy Johnson |
| PastorJackson wrote: | What??i never said end time but major, Over 4million attended and millions were saved, I was there for 2 years with 10-15000 a night there from all over the world! I can't believe you could be so casual about a very mighty move of God! Ministries all over the world came from it mine included, there had been noting in the history close to it. Like I said just because you don't agree does not change the facts. | Randy Johnson wrote: | | PastorJackson wrote: | I experienced the "supposed" Brownsville revival and I saw what happened there I know what happened to me and to thousands of people I met so if you want to be critical I would not about moves of God. How can a child of God be so blase about a move where multiple thousands were added to the kingdom of God? The moves of the 90s were a revival in that it turned our hearts toward God and the impact is still felt weather you choose to accept it or not does not negate the truth.
I wonder how many here would have made the same statement of Acts, that it had to be a "supposed" move in the upper room, these could not be God since it did not happen as we believed it would "We think the past was a model we need to expect the future to be like. " and they acted all crazy drunk and all. SO we must ignore the fruit of the thousands added. I see way too much of this attitude in the Christian world today.
All I can say about the revivals is look to Africa and Asia now and see the revival there. Look up. |
The Brownsville Revival wasn't big enough to count for what is being talked about here.
There are over 7 billion people on this planet, that's 7,000,000,000.
"Thousands were brought into the kingdom" - perhaps.
1% (0.01) of 7,000,000,000 (7 billion) is 70,000,000 (70 million)
One tenth of 1% (0.001) is 7,000,000 (7 million)
One hundreth of 1% (0.0001) is 700,000 (7 hundred thousand, almost a million)
One thousandth of 1% (0.00001) is 70,000 (Seventy thousand)
One ten-thousandth of 1% (0.000001) is 7,000 (Seven thousand)
Let's suppose for the sake of argument that between 7,000 and 70,000 were saved at Brownsville.
In comparison with the population of the entire world, whom God so loved that He gave His only begotten Son, Brownsville does not qualify as a Great End Time Revival.
Let's suppose that 70,000 got saved at Brownsville, that means that after the Brownsville Revival 6,999,930,000 (that's six billion, nine hundred ninety-nine million, nine hundred and thirty thousand) people were left lost and going to hell.
Even if 70,000 got saved at Brownsville that means that 99.999% of the world's population remained lost.
I don't know about you, but I would hardly define that as a Great End Time Revival.
Even if you take away the number who claim to already be Chrfstians, your stats don't look much better.
Let's suppose there are 2,000,000,000 (that's two billion) genuine Christians on earth (the real number is probably between 1 and 2 billion). That is still only 28.57% of the world's population that is saved. That leaves 71.43% (almost three-fourths) of the world's population lost and going to hell.
How many of that 71.43% would need to get saved to qualify as a Great End Time Revival? Remember, God loves the entire world, not just the United States, and He is no respecter of persons. |
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This thread is titled "End Time Great Revival".
I find it amazing how quickly Brownsville went from | Pastor Jackson wrote: | | "I experienced the "supposed" Brownsville revival and I saw what happened there I know what happened to me and to thousands of people I met so if you want to be critical I would not about moves of God" |
to "Over 4 million attended and millions were saved, I was there for 2 years with 10-15000 a night there from all over the world!".
Also, the ability to attract a crowd does not necessarily equate to a "Great Revival".
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
2/13/13 6:55 am
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| Not to hijack my own thread but |
MS7777 |
I was at the Brownsville Revival many times including several Pastoral training meetings and I have known John Kilpatrick for years since (both in AG) and he spoke in my church so I spent some time with him. THe church would hold 2500 seats in the main sanctuary and they would put in chairs to accomodate a total of 3000 plus. THe old sanctuary would seat 1000 in overflow with video and there were a couple of smaller rooms with video. All in all no more than 5000 were there any night. Services were held: Tues. Prayer meeting and then Wed. thru Saturday nights and Sunday am services. This went from June 6, 1995 until 2000. So for 5 years running 5000 or so people were in church 4 nights (not counting prayer meeting) and 1 Sunday every week. 25000 per week X 52 X 5 = 6,500,000. COnservative estimates around 4 million. Have you ever had someone stand in the hot Florida sun for 8 hours to get into your church service? I did and stood with people from all over the world in the process. It was a GREAT REVIVAL and affected and effected the Kingdom very positively in the process. On any given night the altars were always filled with people getting saved or rededicated. John says they estimate 2 million salvations but who knows? It was hardly an insignificant event and don't forget, there was no streaming live video at the time. BTW Charity James and her husband came to our church a few years ago and she sang her famous altar call song "Mercy seat" and the anointing was just as powerful as it was in 1996. Unbelievable.
However, I am expecting EVEN GREATER than this in these days.
Blessings
_________________
Acts 1:8 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 727
2/13/13 10:17 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | So for 5 years running 5000 or so people were in church 4 nights (not counting prayer meeting) and 1 Sunday every week. 25000 per week X 52 X 5 = 6,500,000. COnservative estimates around 4 million. |
To arrive at those numbers, you would have to assume that most people only attended one service, which I highly doubt was the case. |
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Posts: 14803
2/13/13 11:00 am
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| That's why we |
MS7777 |
only estimated 4 million. But, of course you are right. When you traveled hours or days to get there, usually you attended more than 1 meeting.
But you wuld still have to acknowledge that millions were there physically and I can personally attest to thousands of churches being impacted by pastors and others who went home dramatically changed. Just take the Smithton Missouri outpouring for 1 example.
Brownsville and Toronto made a huge impact in the Kingdom and their effects are still being felt today, albeit to a lesser degree. The whole prophetic stream that is moving today can trace it's recent history to Toronto and John Arnott for example.
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Acts 1:8 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 727
2/13/13 11:28 am
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bonnie knox |
4 million is 60% of the number you would get if you assumed everyone attended but one service.
That does not seem to be a conservative estimate given that most testimonials I've heard are about people attending multiple services.
Oh, well, I'm not a preacher, so maybe my estimates would be too conservative.  |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
2/13/13 11:39 am
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| Re: Not to hijack my own thread but |
PastorJackson |
Amen when I said thousands I was being very conservitive since I know there are those on here who will argue if I said millions so I went with multiple thousands, I was there for 2 years and I was in those services most every night and weekends, Sitting there under tents playing guitar and fellowshiping, don't forget the spring services that had 15,000 a night for many nights. It is amazing to hear people that never attended yet are willing to dismiss it because of a paradigm. I miss Charity, I used to know Allison husband pretty well when he started a church but I lost touch a few years ago. | MS7777 wrote: | I was at the Brownsville Revival many times including several Pastoral training meetings and I have known John Kilpatrick for years since (both in AG) and he spoke in my church so I spent some time with him. The church would hold 2500 seats in the main sanctuary and they would put in chairs to accommodate a total of 3000 plus. The old sanctuary would seat 1000 in overflow with video and there were a couple of smaller rooms with video. All in all no more than 5000 were there any night. Services were held: Tues. Prayer meeting and then Wed. thru Saturday nights and Sunday am services. This went from June 6, 1995 until 2000. So for 5 years running 5000 or so people were in church 4 nights (not counting prayer meeting) and 1 Sunday every week. 25000 per week X 52 X 5 = 6,500,000. Conservative estimates around 4 million. Have you ever had someone stand in the hot Florida sun for 8 hours to get into your church service? I did and stood with people from all over the world in the process. It was a GREAT REVIVAL and affected and effected the Kingdom very positively in the process. On any given night the altars were always filled with people getting saved or rededicated. John says they estimate 2 million salvations but who knows? It was hardly an insignificant event and don't forget, there was no streaming live video at the time. BTW Charity James and her husband came to our church a few years ago and she sang her famous altar call song "Mercy seat" and the anointing was just as powerful as it was in 1996. Unbelievable.
However, I am expecting EVEN GREATER than this in these days.
Blessings |
_________________
Are the things you are living for, worth Christ dying for?
http://www.jacksonplant.org/
http://jacksonplant.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/jackson.plant |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4750
2/13/13 12:41 pm
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| Re: End time revivals |
PastorJackson |
Randy why are you so eager to dismiss this move? | Randy Johnson wrote: | | PastorJackson wrote: | What??i never said end time but major, Over 4million attended and millions were saved, I was there for 2 years with 10-15000 a night there from all over the world! I can't believe you could be so casual about a very mighty move of God! Ministries all over the world came from it mine included, there had been noting in the history close to it. Like I said just because you don't agree does not change the facts. | Randy Johnson wrote: | | PastorJackson wrote: | I experienced the "supposed" Brownsville revival and I saw what happened there I know what happened to me and to thousands of people I met so if you want to be critical I would not about moves of God. How can a child of God be so blase about a move where multiple thousands were added to the kingdom of God? The moves of the 90s were a revival in that it turned our hearts toward God and the impact is still felt weather you choose to accept it or not does not negate the truth.
I wonder how many here would have made the same statement of Acts, that it had to be a "supposed" move in the upper room, these could not be God since it did not happen as we believed it would "We think the past was a model we need to expect the future to be like. " and they acted all crazy drunk and all. SO we must ignore the fruit of the thousands added. I see way too much of this attitude in the Christian world today.
All I can say about the revivals is look to Africa and Asia now and see the revival there. Look up. |
The Brownsville Revival wasn't big enough to count for what is being talked about here.
There are over 7 billion people on this planet, that's 7,000,000,000.
"Thousands were brought into the kingdom" - perhaps.
1% (0.01) of 7,000,000,000 (7 billion) is 70,000,000 (70 million)
One tenth of 1% (0.001) is 7,000,000 (7 million)
One hundreth of 1% (0.0001) is 700,000 (7 hundred thousand, almost a million)
One thousandth of 1% (0.00001) is 70,000 (Seventy thousand)
One ten-thousandth of 1% (0.000001) is 7,000 (Seven thousand)
Let's suppose for the sake of argument that between 7,000 and 70,000 were saved at Brownsville.
In comparison with the population of the entire world, whom God so loved that He gave His only begotten Son, Brownsville does not qualify as a Great End Time Revival.
Let's suppose that 70,000 got saved at Brownsville, that means that after the Brownsville Revival 6,999,930,000 (that's six billion, nine hundred ninety-nine million, nine hundred and thirty thousand) people were left lost and going to hell.
Even if 70,000 got saved at Brownsville that means that 99.999% of the world's population remained lost.
I don't know about you, but I would hardly define that as a Great End Time Revival.
Even if you take away the number who claim to already be Chrfstians, your stats don't look much better.
Let's suppose there are 2,000,000,000 (that's two billion) genuine Christians on earth (the real number is probably between 1 and 2 billion). That is still only 28.57% of the world's population that is saved. That leaves 71.43% (almost three-fourths) of the world's population lost and going to hell.
How many of that 71.43% would need to get saved to qualify as a Great End Time Revival? Remember, God loves the entire world, not just the United States, and He is no respecter of persons. |
|
This thread is titled "End Time Great Revival".
I find it amazing how quickly Brownsville went from | Pastor Jackson wrote: | | "I experienced the "supposed" Brownsville revival and I saw what happened there I know what happened to me and to thousands of people I met so if you want to be critical I would not about moves of God" |
to "Over 4 million attended and millions were saved, I was there for 2 years with 10-15000 a night there from all over the world!".
Also, the ability to attract a crowd does not necessarily equate to a "Great Revival". |
_________________
Are the things you are living for, worth Christ dying for?
http://www.jacksonplant.org/
http://jacksonplant.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/jackson.plant |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4750
2/13/13 12:44 pm
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| My position on Brownsville has changed |
Randy Johnson |
| PastorJackson wrote: | | Randy why are you so eager to dismiss this move? |
I have a friend in ministry named Michael Livengood. Mike and I met in 1982 when I pastored my first church and Mike and his family were starting in evangelism. I had Mike preach revivals for me from 1982 through 1993 in every church I pastored in the Assemblies of God.
In the past few years, Mike and his wife Linda have been conducting Outpouring services all over the world. They now base their ministry out of New Zealand. What is of special interest to me is the fact that they have been flying back and forth between their other engagements and the church where I and my father's family got saved, Cross Tabernacle, formerly named First Assembly of God in Terre Haute, Indiana.
Before I moved to Pennsylvania I went to conduct some business in Terre Haute. During the week I was there Mike and Linda were conducting outpouring services at CrossT, so I went to one of the services. It was not wild or off the wall but it wasn't time constrained or totally platform controlled either. There was worship music, Mike preached, but the service wasn't about the music or about Mike. The people were there to seek an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and they weren't in a hurry to leave. They waited before the Lord at the altars of prayer, expecting Him and desiring Him to manifest His presence in their midst. There were no "crazy manifestations" or anything else that drew attention to the people, it was a God-honoring service.
Since I was in town all week, I asked Mike and Linda if we could have lunch the following day and we met at Cracker Barrel. Since I knew Mike and his ministry all my adult life, I felt comfortable just laying everything on the table about my fears, doubts and concerns about Brownsville. The reason I did this is because Mike told me that the focus of his ministry began changing when he went to Brownsville. So I spent over two hours with Mike and Linda grilling them about Brownsville and their present focus on Outpouring services.
I came away with a fresh perspective on Brownsville after meeting with Mike. I still believe there were manifestations at Brownsville that were more the flesh of the people than the Holy Spirit. But that is not what is most important. When the apostle Paul wrote in Philippians he said that because of his chains some preached Christ out of envy and rivalry and others out of good will, but his conclusion was that it didn't matter because whether from false motives or true, Christ was preached, and in that he rejoiced.
I've taken a similar position concerning Brownsville and the extrabiblical manifestations that were attributed to the Holy Spirit during that time. At the very best, I consider them to have been the reaction of people's physical bodies to the presence of the Holy Spirit, at the worst, I consider them the actions of spiritual wannabes who sought to draw attention to themselves and inject themselves into the headlines of what was going on. But either way, I've come to the same conclusion as Paul, what does it matter? Christ was preached, and in this rejoice.
I can no longer just condemn Brownsville and write it off as a false move of God. In fact, having been an ordained bishop in the Church of God for almost five years now, I think we could use more time at the altars seeking God for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit than what I have experienced in the COG congregations that I have visited.
Unfortunately, the testimony I keep hearing from pastor after pastor runs the gamut from "My people love the Lord but they don't want to have anything to do with the Holy Spirit" to "Our people have never been demonstrative or into the vocal gifts". Granted, I've only visited a handful of churches in two states in five years, but it is eerily similar to hear the same testimonies from multiple pastors. It's almost as if the Pentecostalism of previous generations has burned out those who remain, and snuffed out any desire for the genuine move and manifestations of the Holy Spirit in their churches today. I hope this is just a fluke of the congregations and pastors I've actually visited, but if it is not, I think we have a problem.
The point of my previous post which you responded to, Pastor Jackson, was that in comparison with the world's population and the need, our greatest revivals in our eyes, are less than a drop in the bucket when compared to the need in this world. The need is enormous compared to what we have experienced, Brownsville included.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
2/13/13 2:08 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (Acts 2:38, 39 KJV)
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Acts 3:19 KJV)
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. So Paul departed from among them. (Acts 17:30-33 KJV)
From the above scriptures, it seems clear that at least one essential condition the reception of the promised outpouring, the "This is that" promised for the last days, is repentance. In Acts 17 we know that most of those in that place who heard Paul's message did not repent, and so quite obviously they missed the opportunity to experience the promise of the Father.
In my experience, we sometimes seem to expect the outpouring of the Spirit to be totally unilateral, a "Holy Ghost takeover" as some have called it. But clearly from Scripture we can see that the Spirit doesn't work in such a one-sided manner.
Based on these plain facts of Scripture, it seems clear that the last days outpouring upon all mankind depends on whether or not an individual or a group actually fulfills the scriptural conditions for its reception. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12802
2/13/13 3:29 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
I saw Steve Hill in service this past weekend.
Sadly, he had to be helped onto the stage. Says he is not cancer free - yet.
He mostly told stories of the past. He said two million were saved in Brownsville alone and he led several more million to Christ. Hundreds of thousands were healed - and he said most people come to his services for "the healings".
He said that he told God a couple of years ago if he would raise him up "I will win You a million more souls".
He counted 50+ led to Christ in Sunday morning's service. I did not hear how many were counted Sunday night.
Most all (if not everyone) counted as "salvations" were regular attenders and members - who did not appear to come forward for salvation - but were counted none-the-less. I am also not sure how many of the 50+ were saved again Sunday night by coming forward again.
I do not know how many healings were reported - I also do not know of any people with cerebral palsy, cancer, deafness, confined to a wheelchair or heart disease that claimed to be healed.
Full disclosure: I did not return Sunday night.
That was the first time I heard Steve Hill in person.
I honestly am not trying to make an endorsement or negative attack. It is the facts as plainly as I can tell them. Many facebook postings talk of how fantastic the services were. Mine was not one of them.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16631
2/13/13 4:24 pm
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PastorJackson |
When people came forward in Brownsville, they were not counted unless they were led in a prayer for salvation and then prayed for, I know what happened to me there and I would not be here now with out it. I got the opportunity to sit and talk and pray with Steve back in 98 before I went to Japan he prayed for me and listening to him all he talks is Jesus and his love. Steve is a man on fire for Jesus and we are all praying for his full healing. I think its great to tell stories of the past works that God has done, isnt that what the COG does all the time with Barney Creek and the history of the COG? It builds up expectation and faith so the work of God will happen. I wish he could get over here and minister again, thanks for the update.
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | I saw Steve Hill in service this past weekend.
Sadly, he had to be helped onto the stage. Says he is not cancer free - yet.
He mostly told stories of the past. He said two million were saved in Brownsville alone and he led several more million to Christ. Hundreds of thousands were healed - and he said most people come to his services for "the healings".
He said that he told God a couple of years ago if he would raise him up "I will win You a million more souls".
He counted 50+ led to Christ in Sunday morning's service. I did not hear how many were counted Sunday night.
Most all (if not everyone) counted as "salvations" were regular attenders and members - who did not appear to come forward for salvation - but were counted none-the-less. I am also not sure how many of the 50+ were saved again Sunday night by coming forward again.
I do not know how many healings were reported - I also do not know of any people with cerebral palsy, cancer, deafness, confined to a wheelchair or heart disease that claimed to be healed.
Full disclosure: I did not return Sunday night.
That was the first time I heard Steve Hill in person.
I honestly am not trying to make an endorsement or negative attack. It is the facts as plainly as I can tell them. Many facebook postings talk of how fantastic the services were. Mine was not one of them. |
_________________
Are the things you are living for, worth Christ dying for?
http://www.jacksonplant.org/
http://jacksonplant.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/jackson.plant |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4750
2/13/13 7:44 pm
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| Re: My position on Brownsville has changed |
PastorJackson |
Yes we do need a move like you mentioned, and the churches that feel burned out are the ones that need the move of God the most. I was a minister in the AOG in 97 and my ministry really changed then. I left there on fire and I saw so much in the years following and I really miss Gods move but I know what he did and will do it again. Lets keep praying. | Randy Johnson wrote: | | PastorJackson wrote: | | Randy why are you so eager to dismiss this move? |
I have a friend in ministry named Michael Livengood. Mike and I met in 1982 when I pastored my first church and Mike and his family were starting in evangelism. I had Mike preach revivals for me from 1982 through 1993 in every church I pastored in the Assemblies of God.
In the past few years, Mike and his wife Linda have been conducting Outpouring services all over the world. They now base their ministry out of New Zealand. What is of special interest to me is the fact that they have been flying back and forth between their other engagements and the church where I and my father's family got saved, Cross Tabernacle, formerly named First Assembly of God in Terre Haute, Indiana.
Before I moved to Pennsylvania I went to conduct some business in Terre Haute. During the week I was there Mike and Linda were conducting outpouring services at CrossT, so I went to one of the services. It was not wild or off the wall but it wasn't time constrained or totally platform controlled either. There was worship music, Mike preached, but the service wasn't about the music or about Mike. The people were there to seek an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and they weren't in a hurry to leave. They waited before the Lord at the altars of prayer, expecting Him and desiring Him to manifest His presence in their midst. There were no "crazy manifestations" or anything else that drew attention to the people, it was a God-honoring service.
Since I was in town all week, I asked Mike and Linda if we could have lunch the following day and we met at Cracker Barrel. Since I knew Mike and his ministry all my adult life, I felt comfortable just laying everything on the table about my fears, doubts and concerns about Brownsville. The reason I did this is because Mike told me that the focus of his ministry began changing when he went to Brownsville. So I spent over two hours with Mike and Linda grilling them about Brownsville and their present focus on Outpouring services.
I came away with a fresh perspective on Brownsville after meeting with Mike. I still believe there were manifestations at Brownsville that were more the flesh of the people than the Holy Spirit. But that is not what is most important. When the apostle Paul wrote in Philippians he said that because of his chains some preached Christ out of envy and rivalry and others out of good will, but his conclusion was that it didn't matter because whether from false motives or true, Christ was preached, and in that he rejoiced.
I've taken a similar position concerning Brownsville and the extrabiblical manifestations that were attributed to the Holy Spirit during that time. At the very best, I consider them to have been the reaction of people's physical bodies to the presence of the Holy Spirit, at the worst, I consider them the actions of spiritual wannabes who sought to draw attention to themselves and inject themselves into the headlines of what was going on. But either way, I've come to the same conclusion as Paul, what does it matter? Christ was preached, and in this rejoice.
I can no longer just condemn Brownsville and write it off as a false move of God. In fact, having been an ordained bishop in the Church of God for almost five years now, I think we could use more time at the altars seeking God for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit than what I have experienced in the COG congregations that I have visited.
Unfortunately, the testimony I keep hearing from pastor after pastor runs the gamut from "My people love the Lord but they don't want to have anything to do with the Holy Spirit" to "Our people have never been demonstrative or into the vocal gifts". Granted, I've only visited a handful of churches in two states in five years, but it is eerily similar to hear the same testimonies from multiple pastors. It's almost as if the Pentecostalism of previous generations has burned out those who remain, and snuffed out any desire for the genuine move and manifestations of the Holy Spirit in their churches today. I hope this is just a fluke of the congregations and pastors I've actually visited, but if it is not, I think we have a problem.
The point of my previous post which you responded to, Pastor Jackson, was that in comparison with the world's population and the need, our greatest revivals in our eyes, are less than a drop in the bucket when compared to the need in this world. The need is enormous compared to what we have experienced, Brownsville included. |
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Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4750
2/13/13 7:51 pm
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| Bonnie, remember that, this is of course .. |
Rafael D Martinez |
| bonnie knox wrote: | 4 million is 60% of the number you would get if you assumed everyone attended but one service.
That does not seem to be a conservative estimate given that most testimonials I've heard are about people attending multiple services.
Oh, well, I'm not a preacher, so maybe my estimates would be too conservative. :shock: |
evangelistically speaking
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Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16
These are trying times. Everyone's trying something and getting caught. The Church Lady, 1987 |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7766
2/14/13 9:11 am
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diakoneo |
It seems much of what is called revival in the U.S. today revolves around sensationalism or consumerism. Must have: right kind of music, right kind of speaker, right kind of venue, etc. or some type of sensational speaker/events.
It revolves for the most part around personalities and talents.
For instance: what would the Brownsville revival been without the great music?
What would the Toronto revival been without the stories of gold filled teeth etc.? |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
2/14/13 11:15 am
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PastorJackson |
it moved around the move of God not the great music. People do not stand in 8 hours hot Florida sun for music! | diakoneo wrote: | It seems much of what is called revival in the U.S. today revolves around sensationalism or consumerism. Must have: right kind of music, right kind of speaker, right kind of venue, etc. or some type of sensational speaker/events.
It revolves for the most part around personalities and talents.
For instance: what would the Brownsville revival been without the great music?
What would the Toronto revival been without the stories of gold filled teeth etc.? |
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Are the things you are living for, worth Christ dying for?
http://www.jacksonplant.org/
http://jacksonplant.blogspot.com/
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Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4750
2/14/13 2:01 pm
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Randy Johnson |
| PastorJackson wrote: | it moved around the move of God not the great music. People do not stand in 8 hours hot Florida sun for music! | diakoneo wrote: | It seems much of what is called revival in the U.S. today revolves around sensationalism or consumerism. Must have: right kind of music, right kind of speaker, right kind of venue, etc. or some type of sensational speaker/events.
It revolves for the most part around personalities and talents.
For instance: what would the Brownsville revival been without the great music?
What would the Toronto revival been without the stories of gold filled teeth etc.? |
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Well, I remember hearing a report that when a certain worship leader left the Revival that many considered the Revival to be over.
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Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
2/14/13 2:33 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
I attended the Brownsville Outpouring several times and was mightily blessed and changed by the power of God there. Lindell Cooley was a very good musician and worship leader (and still is) but the revival actually started before Lindell even got there.
I've been in services that had equally good or even better music, but never have I been in services where the people worshipped with such manifestly wholehearted love and abandon for the Lord as at Brownsville. Nor have I witnessed anywhere else such deep and wholehearted repentance in altar services as I did at Brownsville.
Critics are quick to focus on the odd physical manifestations such as shaking and jerking, but those very same manifestations have often been noted in revival meetings and campmeetings since at least the Great Awakening of the 1700s.
Yes Brownsville's music was good, and yes there were some strange things that occurred, some of which could have been of questionable spiritual origin, but the thing that was most significant about Brownsville to me was the obvious hunger for more of God in virtually everything that went on, be it the singing, the praying, the preaching, etc. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12802
2/14/13 3:23 pm
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PastorJackson |
well said | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | I attended the Brownsville Outpouring several times and was mightily blessed and changed by the power of God there. Lindell Cooley was a very good musician and worship leader (and still is) but the revival actually started before Lindell even got there.
I've been in services that had equally good or even better music, but never have I been in services where the people worshipped with such manifestly wholehearted love and abandon for the Lord as at Brownsville. Nor have I witnessed anywhere else such deep and wholehearted repentance in altar services as I did at Brownsville.
Critics are quick to focus on the odd physical manifestations such as shaking and jerking, but those very same manifestations have often been noted in revival meetings and campmeetings since at least the Great Awakening of the 1700s.
Yes Brownsville's music was good, and yes there were some strange things that occurred, some of which could have been of questionable spiritual origin, but the thing that was most significant about Brownsville to me was the obvious hunger for more of God in virtually everything that went on, be it the singing, the praying, the preaching, etc. |
_________________
Are the things you are living for, worth Christ dying for?
http://www.jacksonplant.org/
http://jacksonplant.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/jackson.plant |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4750
2/14/13 4:42 pm
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