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 Re: Proof texting |
R. Keith Whitt |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | R. Keith Whitt wrote: | | Spartanfan, I think part of the problem is we "gain" our doctrine from popular preachers, instead of the Word. |
Keith, if you feel my doctrine is not based on the Word, I would enjoy a more specific treatment of it from you. It's hard to address such a general attack.
It may be a problem for Christians to "gain" their doctrine from others - but it's unavoidable.
Some get their doctrine from popular preachers, unpopular preachers, pastors and teachers, professors, Oprah, rock stars, TV, music and books. Others say they get their doctrine from the Word and pretend they have not been influenced by unpopular preachers, popular preachers or anyone or anything else, including Oprah. Ultimately, our highest hope is base our doctrine on the Word taught by the Holy Spirit. Sorting out the influences of popular/unpopular preachers etc. is the challenge - though God can and does use people.
| Quote: | | We no longer interact with the whole of Scripture, but pick and choose proof texts to prove our point. Nor, do we engage in the thoughts of those before us who have wrestled with the same issues. I see the rapid resurgence of gnosticism. The old adage is true about history repeating itself.... |
Not that you're speaking to me (but I did start this thread), but I again find it hard to address such a generalized accusations that "we no longer interact with the whole of scripture" (as though we did up until 1992 at which time our views were perfect) or that we neglect views of popular preachers from a different era.
Sometimes when folks make such a generalized statement, it sounds like they are saying "there's some Bible against that view somewhere, I don't know where, but there must be"! I know that's not the case with you, so I encourage you to add all texts or views from other Christians (popular or not) you feel need to be added to this discussion for the issue to get thorough treatment.
It would seem most productive if each of us would "pick and choose proof texts" for his/her point (along with the writings or views of any other Christians/preachers - popular or not) and present them along with our views for discussion so that we may become those "who have wrestled" with these issues. Get in here and wrestle!
As for "proof texting":
Is there some other way to present what the Bible says about a doctrinal point than listing the texts that deal with that issue? |
Brad, my comment was not directed at you, as you noted, -- or anyone in particular. That's the reason I put the disclaimer in. It was intended as a commentary on Spartanfan's observation.
My secondary motivation to post the comment is the tendency -- by some, not all -- to jump on a particular doctrine and fail to engage the Scriptures that do not allow a neat, clean theology. Unfortunately, theology is messy and about the time I think I have everything figured out, I find a passage or thinker that messes up my "systematized" thought  God created what I call intentional tension in the Scriptures (see my article in the Feb. Evangel) to keep us continually engaged in the Word, as we wrestle with salvific/redemptive issues.
My primary academic strengths are in the Gospels and OT, so I usually try to limit my interaction in Pauline discussions, until I have time to think it through. That -- and the lack of time -- is the reason I haven't been more engaged in this thread. I think the right questions are being asked. And that is how we find the answers.
Just so you and I are clear, you know that I hold you in high regard and that you occupy a high spot on my list of favorite people. You are such a prolific writer/thinker that I just do not have the time for long interactions, at this point in my schedule. I also THOROUGHLY enjoy throwing a juxtaposed thought into discussions just to generate different rabbit trails. Unfortunately, I realize they are usually done with brevity and may come across differently than I intend (the joy of the written medium). So, if I have written anything that offends you, my friend, I apologize. Such, was NOT my intention -- directly or indirectly.
Be blessed,
Keith
PS, do you ever get to Knoxville? I don't go through Corbin much anymore. I really would love to meet up for lunch sometime. Oh, and thanks for remembering that I started my writing ministry in 1992 
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R. Keith Whitt |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 684
1/31/13 10:05 am
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| Re: Proof texting |
bradfreeman |
| R. Keith Whitt wrote: | So, if I have written anything that offends you, my friend, I apologize. Such, was NOT my intention -- directly or indirectly.
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No apology necessary bro. I love and respect you and want your input. I apologize for the sarcastic beast that lives in me - he likes to manifest.
I don't get to Knoxville much, but will try to contact you when I do!
Brad
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
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My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
1/31/13 11:05 am
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| Re: question |
Dean Steenburgh |
| Poimen wrote: | | Dean, Jesus was human. Did He sin? |
Yes Jesus was human in that He was born of Mary but He was conceived because the Holy Spirit provided the seed of God to cause her to become pregnant w/God's Son.
He did not have a fleshly father's blood at birth - He had His Father's blood at birth. He may have been born into a sinful world but He and He alone was the only one born with no sin in His flesh.
It wasn't in His nature to sin like it is ours. We are born of our father Adam & are born with his curse & the curse can only be broken when we are 'born' again & leave the flesh for the Spirit.
Come on Poimen, why you making me go through this???
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"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
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Posts: 4682
1/31/13 2:28 pm
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| Re: Lord have mercy.... |
Dean Steenburgh |
| spartanfan wrote: | I didn't realize we had so many doctrinally messed up preachers on Acts. This is ridiculous. We should at least be consistent in the defining of Biblical terms.
Chew on 1 John 3:9 for a moment: "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
How does your definition of sin stand in the light of that? |
I've chewed on it for ages Sparty but as for me I'm not talking about a lifestyle of sin I'm talking about those rediculous times when we aren't perfect & we do things we regret. I for one have not fully mastered my flesh to the point where I'm prefect ...even though my mom might argue that point 
I think it's fun to examine these Pauline things. My grandma was named Pauline Steenburgh & she was the clerk of the Carver Rd. CoG for ages so the Pauline thing is close to me
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
1/31/13 2:37 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted. (Hebrews 2:17, 18 NASB)
The Word became (truly) flesh, and dwelt among us. He was fully God and fully human. I submit that the commonly held idea that Jesus somehow had a different kind of humanity from ours (basically like Superman or something which made it impossible for Him to sin somehow) renders his temptations a farce and his example for us meaningless. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12798
1/31/13 3:07 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted. (Hebrews 2:17, 18 NASB)
The Word became (truly) flesh, and dwelt among us. He was fully God and fully human. I submit that the commonly held idea that Jesus somehow had a different kind of humanity from ours (basically like Superman or something which made it impossible for Him to sin somehow) renders his temptations a farce and his example for us meaningless. |
I agree with you but at the same time we know from basic biology that the father's seed carries the blood for the newborn & Jesus was born of His Father & of Mary. As a human He was tempted & He was carried away by satan to be tested & tempted becaue the devil knew that He was just human enough that there might be a chance that He would give in to His human desires. But the God nature in Him knew not to give in to the devil's schemes. I don't see Him as a diff human but He had the most awesome Father there ever was or will be
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
1/31/13 3:28 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | I agree with you but at the same time we know from basic biology that the father's seed carries the blood for the newborn & Jesus was born of His Father & of Mary. |
I really don't think that is the case. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
1/31/13 7:34 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | I agree with you but at the same time we know from basic biology that the father's seed carries the blood for the newborn & Jesus was born of His Father & of Mary. |
I really don't think that is the case. |
What are you referring to Bonnie?
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
1/31/13 8:30 pm
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bonnie knox |
If you are saying that the DNA that is responsible for the blood in a fetus is only derived by genetic contributions of the father, that is just incorrect.
(I don't pretend to know the biology involved with the Incarnation beyond the fact that it was miraculous. But I don't know where people got the idea that the "baby gets his blood from his father [only]") |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
1/31/13 11:00 pm
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| Re: question |
Poimen |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | Poimen wrote: | | Dean, Jesus was human. Did He sin? |
Yes Jesus was human in that He was born of Mary but He was conceived because the Holy Spirit provided the seed of God to cause her to become pregnant w/God's Son.
He did not have a fleshly father's blood at birth - He had His Father's blood at birth. He may have been born into a sinful world but He and He alone was the only one born with no sin in His flesh.
It wasn't in His nature to sin like it is ours. We are born of our father Adam & are born with his curse & the curse can only be broken when we are 'born' again & leave the flesh for the Spirit.
Come on Poimen, why you making me go through this??? |
That has nothing to do with, nor does it change the fact that, Jesus was truly human, including having a "fallen" mortal or corruptible body. The same as we who now are born again. We have God as our Father too -- as concerns the rebirth, the new spiritual life we have received, & the new creature we have become. We are, having been born of the Spirit, as Jesus was in this world. We are in mortal flesh, just as our Lord was, but we are no longer of the flesh.
Therefore, if being in yet mortal bodies makes us sinners it of consequence made Him one too. If, however, being born of the Spirit (as He was), yet in flesh, did not make Jesus a sinner then neither are we any longer sinners who have been born again of the Spirit. This is why Jesus is so emphatic when He says we must be born again.
We can't have it both ways; if our fleshly bodies constitute us sinners then it constitutes Christ a sinner as well.
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Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
1/31/13 11:13 pm
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| Re: question |
Randy Johnson |
| Poimen wrote: | | We can't have it both ways; if our fleshly bodies constitute us sinners then it constitutes Christ a sinner as well. |
Doesn't Scripture say that our bodies are dead because of sin, but our spirits are alive because of [Christ's] righteousness?
Our bodies are the victims here because of their weakness, they are not the source of sin, nor are they inherently evil because they are "matter". 
Paul said that sin was in the world before the law was given. So, sin must be something more than just "breaking the law of God", since it existed in the world before the law was given.
Paul also said that sin is not taken into account where there is no law, but when the law comes it ends up putting us to death because sin takes advantage of the commandment and produces death in us.
It isn't that our bodies are evil because they are matter, it is that sin attacks us through the desires of our bodies, by perverting or amplifying those desires so that we become slaves to sin rather than slaves to righteousness.
Also, don't forget there are sins of omission as well as commission.
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Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
1/31/13 11:27 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Before the Law of Moses, sin was in the world, certainly. The commandment/law Adam received included only one thing forbidden, and he broke that commandment/law. Sin is the transgression of the law/commandment of God. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12798
1/31/13 11:30 pm
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| Re: question |
Poimen |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | | Poimen wrote: | | We can't have it both ways; if our fleshly bodies constitute us sinners then it constitutes Christ a sinner as well. |
Doesn't Scripture say that our bodies are dead because of sin, but our spirits are alive because of [Christ's] righteousness?
Our bodies are the victims here because of their weakness, they are not the source of sin, nor are they inherently evil because they are "matter".
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Then being in the flesh, as concerns the body itself, does not mean that we will (or must) sin, nor that we are yet sinners. That's why Jesus could be in the same flesh, face the same temptations, and struggle with the same desires "yet without sin".
Spiritually speaking, I am no longer dead in sin, but alive to God. I am no longer born of flesh, but have been born again of the Spirit. I no longer walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit, and there is no compelling factor that precludes the gracious ability as a born again, Spirit indwelt, new creation to in fact be and do righteously.
My flesh does not make me sin, nor do we have to sin, anymore than Jesus did. THAT is the point. That is what Jesus did, and does, that the law could not do (in that it was weak through the flesh) for us. However, we can sin if we yield our members to do so. And IF we sin (not when we sin, as if it were a forgone conclusion) we have an advocate with the Father.
I write these things that we sin not, but rather take full advantage of the grace abounding to and working in us as partakers of the divine nature. So that we are and will be as He was in this world.
_________________
Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay."
Last edited by Poimen on 2/2/13 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
1/31/13 11:56 pm
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| try this |
Dean Steenburgh |
| bonnie knox wrote: | If you are saying that the DNA that is responsible for the blood in a fetus is only derived by genetic contributions of the father, that is just incorrect.
(I don't pretend to know the biology involved with the Incarnation beyond the fact that it was miraculous. But I don't know where people got the idea that the "baby gets his blood from his father [only]") |
Read this Bonnie, about half way down the page you'll see some help regarding where the blood of a baby comes from (not the blood type) that is we're talking about the life giving nutrient that runs in our veins.
http://www.johnhamelministries.org/where_jesus_got_his_blood.htm
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
2/1/13 12:18 am
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| (L) |
bonnie knox |
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Poimen |
His blood came as a consequence of his humanity. God is a Spirit, and a spirit doesn't have blood. Blood is part and parcel of His being incarnate, literally "made flesh". And Jesus got His body, His flesh, from Mary. So that He was born a righteous, holy, and mortal human.
We who have been born again are no less righteous, holy, yet mortal humans. And one day even our mortality, like His, will be changed -- when we are likewise born from the dead, and/or changed to meet Him, at His coming.
We are the new humanity, born of the "Second man" (by the Spirit), redeemed in the "last Adam" (no longer in the first) and we are created (or born again) in righteousness and true holiness after God. We who are in Christ, though yet mortal in body, are nevertheless new creatures. Our being yet in these mortal bodies no more necessitates sin for us than it did for Him.
_________________
Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
2/1/13 12:28 am
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| Re: (L) |
Dean Steenburgh |
I already know about those links you looked up & all they go in to are details about blood types. At conception the future baby can only get their blood from the sperm. The egg cannot make it's own blood or else it wouldn't need to be fertilized.
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
2/1/13 1:04 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | & all they go in to are details about blood types |
I think this will be my last post here on this particular part of the discussion. If we need to discuss further after this, I will just take it to another thread.
If you will look at the link I posted, it says this:
| Quote: | | Actually the childs blood is made from the childs bone marrow and other blood producing cells in its body. The matrix for the blood comes from the genetic makeup and therefore both parents donate their share of genetic material to the childs dna matrix. |
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[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
2/1/13 1:08 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | We who are in Christ, though yet mortal in body, are nevertheless new creatures. Our being yet in these mortal bodies no more necessitates sin for us than it did for Him. |
That does seem to me to be what the scriptures are saying. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
2/1/13 1:10 am
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Randy Johnson |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Before the Law of Moses, sin was in the world, certainly. The commandment/law Adam received included only one thing forbidden, and he broke that commandment/law. Sin is the transgression of the law/commandment of God. |
What commandment did the rest of the probably of millions of men and women break between Adam and Moses?
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
2/1/13 7:00 am
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