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Disappointed by the liberal slant of SOME COG Professors
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Post fortheleastofthese
John Jett wrote:
Most people who are liberal in one area are liberal in all.


Statistically, that might be true, but it does not have to be that way. There are plenty of conservative evangelical Christians who are pro-life and anti-gay marriage who also think Assault weapons are not cool or patriotic.

This newly accepted idea of a one size fits all Republican is what cost the GOP the election. Drawing a line in the sand and claiming an all or nothing ideology is a loosing strategy. Being an evil liberal used to mean that you stand for secularism rather than righteousness. Being a liberal meant that you actively seek to replace a Christian Worldview with an atheist or agnostic worldview...

Now, apparently anyone is a liberal (and not a real patriot) if they:

1) Think Assault Weapons should be restricted.
2) If they think discussions on renewable energy are important for our future.
3) If they think the U.S. should make it easier and more affordable for children of illegal aliens to become citizens.
4) If strategic Defense cuts (combined with all the other cuts to major programs) could play a role in helping us balance the budget.
5) And the list goes on...

The recent line in the sand has pushed many "moderates" into "liberal" territory. I hate it personally because I agree with conservatives on everything but the above...The Dems seem to welcome with open arms anyone who has even a shred of common ground, but the GOP has become a very angry and harsh party set on "purifying" its ideology by labeling everyone as a "liberal" (even if they are not in most areas)...

I voted GOP, but I don't like the constant bickering taking place...When party leaders start calling Gov. Christie and Gov. Jindal "liberal appeasers" for finding any common ground on certain issues (or even tragic events!) we have a big problem.
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12/18/12 12:11 pm


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Post John Jett
The GOP is a liberal party too because of their deficit spending. And yes, if someone believes that the second amendment should be abridged then they are liberal by definition.


You're other points are debatable and not necessarily liberal (unless they require deficit spending of course).
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12/18/12 12:26 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
J David Smith wrote:
I want to try to say this again. I LOVE LEE AND PTS. I am a product of Lee University. I have two children who are seniors in high school. They are both considering Lee as their top choice for college. I plan to enroll in PTS next year. They are both great institutions. The purpose of my original post IS NOT to slam Lee, Seminary or to mention any names on here.

I have written a letter to both Paul Conn and Stephen Land that details my specific concerns. This forum is not the place to address specifics. My post here is intended to create dialogue about the increasing influence of socially and politically liberal educators within our institutions. It is negligent to stick our heads in the proverbial sand and pretend that it is not an issue!

Gun control just happens to be the hot topic right now. My post was not about gun control. It is about the increasing number politically and socially liberal educators within our Church of God institutions. It is much larger than the issue of gun control.

I am in favor of critical thought and diversity of opinion. However, it is ludicrous for us to support those who would teach within our Church of God institutions who do not hold strongly to a Biblical worldview.

My son is presently being recruited to play basketball at Emory. As I began to research that particular school, I was intrigued to discover that they also have deep Wesleyan roots. However, it is now considered as one of the most liberal universities in the country. This did not happen over night.

I have had discussions with every one of those whom I have concerns with. Too often, they are arrogantly defensive of their ideology and use the same MO of organizations such as MSNBC and moveon.org, to label anyone who disagrees with their view as "tea baggers", "Right wing extremists", and etc.

I love the Church of God, Lee University and PTS too much to ignore that we have an issue!


Understood David.

I figured it was deeper than that.

But your post made it sound like gun control made them liberal - and my post pointed out that is not the case.

Let us know how it goes.

I got a son heading to Lee. I will let you know his impressions. He is a pretty big 2nd amendment rights guy as his heroes are all cops and military family members.

So if he ever runs into a teacher like that - he will no doubt have a lively debate.
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12/18/12 12:35 pm


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Post Bro Bob
Imagine devoting your entire life to nothing but learning and teaching. Not doing. Observing. Analyzing. Debating. Not creating. Not working. Studying.

Now imagine that you came up with nothing any different than what Solomon declared millennia ago. You have discovered nothing that wasn't known before. You have wasted your life. So you MUST discover the answer to questions no one asked before. You MUST go against what is and has always been, or your life was wasted.

How ironic it is that it is impossible for change not to come, and yet on many things the proposed 'change' is not new, it has been tried and tested and found lacking. It is no wonder to me that the idea that we must change (liberal fundamental), and this is HOW we must change, and this is the improvement the change will bring... is created and embraced most strongly by those who have devoted their life to exactly this study.

None of my best teachers were paid to teach. Not in life. Not in Bible study. Not in finances. Not one.

Vanity. All of it is vanity. If you would learn to be successful, observe what has worked and do that. If you would learn to avoid failure, observe what has failed and don't do it.

I know at least one of the professors of whom you speak. Wonderful man. Kind and compassionate heart. The only thing I learned from him was that kindness covers a lot of non-sense.


Last edited by Bro Bob on 12/18/12 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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12/18/12 1:02 pm


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Post Clint Wills
Travis Johnson wrote:

But, there is plenty of room in orthodox Christianity for pacifists, environmentalists, people who advocate gun control, and big government entitlement folks.

It is terrible to advocate the right to terminate the life of an unborn church or to take my money via taxation to do so for others using the Scriptures as your basis.


I live in the PNW...I don't know if there is room for environmentalists. They are too busy worshiping owls and whales to worship God. Wink
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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12/18/12 1:04 pm


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Post theElder
John Jett wrote: "Most people who are liberal in one area are liberal in all."

I am continually amazed at the people on Acts who are able to make such broad statements! I suppose this means you have been able to talk to 'most' people who are liberal?? Rolling Eyes

From the conversations I have had I seem to find that none of the folks I have talked that are liberals can be described as liberal on every issue nor are the conservatives that I have talked to been conservative on every issue.
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12/18/12 1:28 pm


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Post Major B zjudah1
You are 100% correct. I was saying that during the election.

I will also add that no matter what laws you my need to add to the books, or take away, you will never legislate evil!

It was against the law to kill babies in the womb when I was younger, it didn't stop them then, and since they couldn't win that war, they just legalized it.

Note: Sorry if this distracts from the original post. I saw a soap box, and jumped on it.
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12/18/12 1:29 pm


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Post Re: wow Major Troy Hamby
Major B. Trammell wrote:
muricewatsonsfriend wrote:
Major B. Trammell wrote:
However, a person who votes for Democrats, or more specifically, for DNC candidates is not a Christian; he is not a follower of Jesus Christ- whether that person is a Lee U professor, a professor at a seminary, or a denominational leader. It doesn't matter who they are or what position they hold.

A person who identifies himself or herself as a follower of Jesus Christ and who supports the Democratic party, and by necessity every single value of its platform including the murder of innocent children, by voting for DNC candidates is a hypocrite and has whored out his or her feigned Christian values in favor of politics and parties.

They're frauds."


and that's found where in the Bible? voting is NOT in the Bible - not one time, so how can you or anyone else speak with such clarity on a subject that the Bible is silent on?
- Darius


It's not about merely voting. It's about supporting evil, wickedness, injustice, and immorality and claiming to be a follower of a righteous, just, and moral Christ.

When you vote for a political candidate, you also are voting for the platform upon which they are running. The two are inseparable.

The "right" to murder a child at a woman's convenience, the defense of that evil and wicked practice, the pursuit and pledge to keep it legal and to fight all restrictions regarding it is part of the platform- the stated goals, ideals, and philosophy of the Democratic National Committee. It is what the Democratic National Committee and its candidates promise to pursue or accomplish if elected.

When a person votes for a candidate from the Democratic National Committee party, he is absolutely, positively, without question, casting his or her support for that platform- to support and defend the murder of children.

Followers of Jesus Christ- Christians- do not support the inhumane slaughter of innocent children. Period. Thus, followers of Jesus Christ- Christians- do not cast their support for those who promise to fight to continue such evil and wicked immorality.

Those who claim to be Christians, followers of a righteous, holy, just, moral Savior- Jesus Christ- and, yet, who practice, support, and defend evil, wickedness, injustice, and immorality are hypocrites, by the very definition, and have whored out their feigned and pretended Christian values in favor of politics.

You cannot be complicit in evil and be a follower of Jesus. The Bible is NOT silent.

It is what it is.


no, no, no Major, you're wrong! Didn't you hear that as long as you don't vote a straight democratic ticket, you are okay? ((according to theElder)) And if you only vote for local democrats, like county commissioner, that's okay too (because they're not "real" democrats I guess).
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12/18/12 2:35 pm


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Post J David Smith
I just had an online discussion with an individual professor who took me to task for my posting here. I attempted to have a logical dialogue, but the individual further confirmed my statement that the very people who promote free speech and critical thought have zero tolerance for anyone who thinks differently than themselves. They say things like, "There is room for various thoughts and ideas at the table." Yet, they refuse to entertain anything that opposes their dogmatic ideology!

The individual (who I know is reading this post) chastised me for writing my concerns to Dr. Conn and Dr. Land because, "The livelihood of faculty is at stake." ARE YOU KIDDING ME? We should passively allow instructors to teach our future ministers, leaders and educators from a liberal or socialistic world view because the livelihood of the faculty should be our primary concern? Please?! Twisted Evil
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12/18/12 2:58 pm


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Post Darrell Garrett
Thank you for standing firm David and for following through with your convictions on this by writing both schools. I applaud your actions. Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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12/18/12 3:51 pm


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Post That Is How It Is! Ronald
The machine that has been created has long ago overshadowed its true purpose. No longer is our learning at LC about what is right and wrong scripturally but what keeps the institution going. We are no longer a Pentecostal church. I wonder where COG would be today if in yrs past there was a mindset structure as there is today. P L Walker was called to preach when the Holy Ghost power fell and classes were delayed "days" due to the mighty outpouring! Today there is not room within our machine for that kind of manifestation. It would be deemed fanatical and quickly shut down. I shutter to think what we will be as a denomination due to the lifeless unctionless ministers that are being massed produced out of LC. Friendly Face
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12/18/12 3:54 pm


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Post Re: That Is How It Is! PastorJackson
Amen
Ronald wrote:
The machine that has been created has long ago overshadowed its true purpose. No longer is our learning at LC about what is right and wrong scripturally but what keeps the institution going. We are no longer a Pentecostal church. I wonder where COG would be today if in yrs past there was a mindset structure as there is today. P L Walker was called to preach when the Holy Ghost power fell and classes were delayed "days" due to the mighty outpouring! Today there is not room within our machine for that kind of manifestation. It would be deemed fanatical and quickly shut down. I shutter to think what we will be as a denomination due to the lifeless unctionless ministers that are being massed produced out of LC.

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12/18/12 4:35 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
Clint Wills wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:

But, there is plenty of room in orthodox Christianity for pacifists, environmentalists, people who advocate gun control, and big government entitlement folks.

It is terrible to advocate the right to terminate the life of an unborn church or to take my money via taxation to do so for others using the Scriptures as your basis.


I live in the PNW...I don't know if there is room for environmentalists. They are too busy worshiping owls and whales to worship God. Wink


I live in the opposite corner of the US. Some of my most mature followers of Christ are innovative practitioners restoring Coral Reefs. The love Jesus. They love their neighbors. And, they do a remarkable job in their work with Coral Restoration.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/01/us/cnnheroes-nedimyer-coral-reefs/index.html

There's a difference between worship creation and creation stewardship.
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12/18/12 4:44 pm


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Post Re: That Is How It Is! Travis Johnson
PastorJackson wrote:
Amen
Ronald wrote:
The machine that has been created has long ago overshadowed its true purpose. No longer is our learning at LC about what is right and wrong scripturally but what keeps the institution going. We are no longer a Pentecostal church. I wonder where COG would be today if in yrs past there was a mindset structure as there is today. P L Walker was called to preach when the Holy Ghost power fell and classes were delayed "days" due to the mighty outpouring! Today there is not room within our machine for that kind of manifestation. It would be deemed fanatical and quickly shut down. I shutter to think what we will be as a denomination due to the lifeless unctionless ministers that are being massed produced out of LC.


Seriously?

Pastor Jackson, what do you know about Lee or PTS to amen this?

Of course, Ronald says terrible things about unnamed "lifeless unctionless ministers" being trained at Lee from behind the cloak of a paper bag....talk about unctionless. That's weak, amigo.
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12/18/12 4:56 pm


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Post J David Smith
Please let each post stand on it's own merit. I have spent a lot of money and time with Lee, and may have two kids attending there next year. I also believe that the seminary is the best out there. I am a supporter of both. However, as someone with a vested interest in both, I have expressed my concerns on the issues that I feel will keep both of them as the top choice for Christian families to send their students to with the confidence that they will not be exposed to to a worldview that is in contrast to the Biblical worldview that has always been the selling point for Lee and Seminary Wow, is this a run on sentence?).

I repeat again...my posts ARE NOT a blanket criticism of Lee or Seminary!


Last edited by J David Smith on 12/18/12 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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12/18/12 5:11 pm


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Post Clint Wills
Travis Johnson wrote:
Clint Wills wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:

But, there is plenty of room in orthodox Christianity for pacifists, environmentalists, people who advocate gun control, and big government entitlement folks.

It is terrible to advocate the right to terminate the life of an unborn church or to take my money via taxation to do so for others using the Scriptures as your basis.


I live in the PNW...I don't know if there is room for environmentalists. They are too busy worshiping owls and whales to worship God. Wink


I live in the opposite corner of the US. Some of my most mature followers of Christ are innovative practitioners restoring Coral Reefs. The love Jesus. They love their neighbors. And, they do a remarkable job in their work with Coral Restoration.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/01/us/cnnheroes-nedimyer-coral-reefs/index.html

There's a difference between worship creation and creation stewardship.


I was joking...though feelings toward environmentalists in this neck of the woods is tense.
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12/18/12 5:11 pm


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Post Re: That Is How It Is! PastorJackson
Travis, so its a little club now? A person can not make a amen on a good comment unless you are KNOWN whether he or she attended? I have attended via distance learning but I grew up in Jasper very close to Cleveland. I have been in COG since the mid 90's and I have seen a lot and worked with a lot of ministers and I can see a difference! This goes much deeper than Lee, this comment goes to ministers that are being trained and graduated from there. So I will make a comment if I choose but thanks for asking. Oh all you need to do is look on this site or go to Orlando every two years to see the ones that Ronald is talking about. I am curious of what I have heard recently is true, that there not teaching baptism of the Holy Spirit due to being too controversial now. Can someone who is there or recently let me know. Thanks.
Travis Johnson wrote:
PastorJackson wrote:
Amen
Ronald wrote:
The machine that has been created has long ago overshadowed its true purpose. No longer is our learning at LC about what is right and wrong scripturally but what keeps the institution going. We are no longer a Pentecostal church. I wonder where COG would be today if in yrs past there was a mindset structure as there is today. P L Walker was called to preach when the Holy Ghost power fell and classes were delayed "days" due to the mighty outpouring! Today there is not room within our machine for that kind of manifestation. It would be deemed fanatical and quickly shut down. I shutter to think what we will be as a denomination due to the lifeless unctionless ministers that are being massed produced out of LC.


Seriously?

Pastor Jackson, what do you know about Lee or PTS to amen this?

Of course, Ronald says terrible things about unnamed "lifeless unctionless ministers" being trained at Lee from behind the cloak of a paper bag....talk about unctionless. That's weak, amigo.
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12/18/12 6:15 pm


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Post Re: That Is How It Is! Travis Johnson
PastorJackson wrote:
Oh all you need to do is look on this site or go to Orlando every two years to see the ones that Ronald is talking about.


I'd try to give an educated answer. But, I don't know:

- who you think I should look for on this site.
- who I should see every two years in Orlando.
- and who Ronald is.

The problem seems to be to me that there is another challenging issue present in this discussion than just theological liberalism vs. theological conservatism and governmental liberalism vs. governmental conservatism (and the confusing of the two throughout this thread).
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12/18/12 6:27 pm


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Post Eddie Robbins
Quote:
I am curious of what I have heard recently is true, that there not teaching baptism of the Holy Spirit due to being too controversial now. Can someone who is there or recently let me know. Thanks.


If you have to question whether or not someone has lied to you, you must not hold much stock in what they say and who they are.

Are you saying that teaching the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is too controversial to be taught at Lee University? Send an e-mail to Dr Conn and ask him. pconn@leeuniversity.edu That way, you can depend on the answer rather than somebody with a pen name telling you here.


Last edited by Eddie Robbins on 12/18/12 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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12/18/12 6:33 pm


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Post theElder
Troy, you can try to twist my words and maurice can join you in saying basically the same thing that Troy did but that won't make a bit of difference in the fact that what you guys are saying is untrue.

You two, as well as others on this board, have a lot of nerve casting aspersions on the spiritural life of anyone else when you have such a problem with the truth!

But as Major likes to say, whatever you say to contradict this.........IT Doesn't Matter!
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12/18/12 6:40 pm


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