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I say we throw her out!
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Post bradfreeman
Under the new covenant, God's laws are written on our hearts and minds, not stones.

We are clearly called to throw out that which was given on Mt. Sinai, the law, the 10 commandments, the old priesthood, the old sacrifices--the entire old system.

2 Cor. 3:5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit ; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory ? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

We are made "adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter". God does not make us adequate (equip us) to as servants of the letter. We are under the "ministry of the Spirit" and the "ministry of righteousness", not the "ministry of death" and the "ministry of condemnation". Jesus did not come to condemn the world, but to save it! John 3:17.

Heb. 12:18 For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19 and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command, "IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED." 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling." 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.


We cannot worship on 2 mountains. Sinai was scary and made even Moses "full of fear and trembling". But this is not the mountain we have come to! Our mountain is where we find "the spirits of the righteous made perfect", those who are "enrolled in heaven"! We have come to Mt. Zion!

We have a new covenant! Mixing the covenants is like adding a little leaven, it spoils the whole lump!

Gal. 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law ? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants : one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves ; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free ; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR ; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR ; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say ? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free ; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law ; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. 7 You were running well ; who hindered you from obeying the truth ? 8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.

Ishmael persecuted Isaac (Gal. 4:29), "so it is now". No one resists the new covenant like the children of the old covenant. They cannot live in the house together!

Those who want to mix covenants want the church to have 2 mothers. We cannot be children of 2 mothers. We are children of Sarah, not Hagar!

The entire "yoke of bondage" has to be cast out!
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11/21/12 8:32 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
bradfreeman wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
If what He finished was that all sin, past, present, and future, was paid for, unconditional universalism by definition must follow.


Incorrect. What follows is that sin will not be the reason anyone goes to Hell. Their punishment will flow from their rejection of Jesus' atoning work.

Jesus took our sin and offers us His righteousness.


Even the sin of unbelief/rejecting Jesus was 'paid for' according to the view.
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11/21/12 8:36 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
bradfreeman wrote:
Under the new covenant, God's laws are written on our hearts and minds, not stones.

We are clearly called to throw out that which was given on Mt. Sinai, the law, the 10 commandments, the old priesthood, the old sacrifices--the entire old system.

2 Cor. 3:5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit ; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory ? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

We are made "adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter". God does not make us adequate (equip us) to as servants of the letter. We are under the "ministry of the Spirit" and the "ministry of righteousness", not the "ministry of death" and the "ministry of condemnation". Jesus did not come to condemn the world, but to save it! John 3:17.

Heb. 12:18 For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19 and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command, "IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED." 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling." 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.


We cannot worship on 2 mountains. Sinai was scary and made even Moses "full of fear and trembling". But this is not the mountain we have come to! Our mountain is where we find "the spirits of the righteous made perfect", those who are "enrolled in heaven"! We have come to Mt. Zion!

We have a new covenant! Mixing the covenants is like adding a little leaven, it spoils the whole lump!

Gal. 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law ? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants : one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves ; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free ; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR ; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR ; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say ? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free ; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law ; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. 7 You were running well ; who hindered you from obeying the truth ? 8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.

Ishmael persecuted Isaac (Gal. 4:29), "so it is now". No one resists the new covenant like the children of the old covenant. They cannot live in the house together!

Those who want to mix covenants want the church to have 2 mothers. We cannot be children of 2 mothers. We are children of Sarah, not Hagar!

The entire "yoke of bondage" has to be cast out!


I couldn't agree more; the New Covenant which came through Christ has entirely replaced the Old Covenant which came through through Moses.
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11/21/12 8:38 am


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Post bradfreeman
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
If what He finished was that all sin, past, present, and future, was paid for, unconditional universalism by definition must follow.


Incorrect. What follows is that sin will not be the reason anyone goes to Hell. Their punishment will flow from their rejection of Jesus' atoning work.

Jesus took our sin and offers us His righteousness.


Even the sin of unbelief/rejecting Jesus was 'paid for' according to the view.


It was paid for. Anyone who comes to faith finds all his/her prior rejections of Christ atoned for by Christ.

What sins do you think were "laid on Him"?
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11/21/12 8:39 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
bradfreeman wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
If what He finished was that all sin, past, present, and future, was paid for, unconditional universalism by definition must follow.


Incorrect. What follows is that sin will not be the reason anyone goes to Hell. Their punishment will flow from their rejection of Jesus' atoning work.

Jesus took our sin and offers us His righteousness.


Even the sin of unbelief/rejecting Jesus was 'paid for' according to the view.


It was paid for. Anyone who comes to faith finds all his/her prior rejections of Christ atoned for by Christ.

What sins do you think were "laid on Him"?


If they were paid for, then forgiveness of them is absurd. That is the issue.

Not just prior rejections, either. Supposedly ALL sins, past, present and future were 'paid for.'
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11/21/12 8:40 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Again, Scripture specifically says Christ's death was a ransom/redemption price. It nowhere says it was a payment of debt. That is a theological fiction often asserted but never demonstrated from Scripture itself. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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11/21/12 8:43 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
If I owe someone $1000 and a mutual friend decides to pay my debt for me, to ask for or receive forgiveness of that same debt would be absurd. Payment of debt and forgiveness of debt are mutually exclusive. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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11/21/12 8:45 am


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Post Daniel Rushing
bradfreeman wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
If what He finished was that all sin, past, present, and future, was paid for, unconditional universalism by definition must follow.


Incorrect. What follows is that sin will not be the reason anyone goes to Hell. Their punishment will flow from their rejection of Jesus' atoning work.

Jesus took our sin and offers us His righteousness.


Even the sin of unbelief/rejecting Jesus was 'paid for' according to the view.


It was paid for. Anyone who comes to faith finds all his/her prior rejections of Christ atoned for by Christ.

What sins do you think were "laid on Him"?


Again, I think looking at Hebrews 6, we see the cross event standing in eternity as men effect its redemption in their lives. when they stop doing so, the cross is a disgrace, not their salvation. i would still like to see your take on that Brad.
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11/21/12 8:45 am


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Post bradfreeman
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Again, Scripture specifically says Christ's death was a ransom/redemption price. It nowhere says it was a payment of debt. That is a theological fiction often asserted but never demonstrated from Scripture itself.


I guess you'll have argue with yourself over the "debt" issue. My belief is that Jesus took away "the sin of the world". My belief is that God laid on Him "the iniquity of us all". Sin has been dealt with.

Your argument that this view means we don't need forgiveness is, again, shadow boxing. His grace was fully expressed on the cross. We now access or avail ourselves of this grace/forgiveness/blessing/salvation/atonement/new life by faith. It is always available. It is always offered. It is not accessed until we believe. Until we believe, we need forgiveness.
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Last edited by bradfreeman on 11/21/12 8:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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11/21/12 8:51 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Jesus did not teach that forgiveness of debt was the same thing as payment of debt:

Matt. 18:21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23 “For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 “When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 “But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26 “So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27 “And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28 “But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29 “So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30 “But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 “So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 “Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 ‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 “And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 “My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.” NASB
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11/21/12 8:51 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
bradfreeman wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Again, Scripture specifically says Christ's death was a ransom/redemption price. It nowhere says it was a payment of debt. That is a theological fiction often asserted but never demonstrated from Scripture itself.


I guess you'll have argue with yourself over the "debt" issue. My belief is that Jesus took away "the sin of the world". My belief is that God laid on him "the iniquity of us all". Sin has been dealt with.

Your argument that this view means we don't need forgiveness is, again, shadow boxing. His grace was fully expressed on the cross. We now access or avail ourselves of this grace/forgiveness/blessing/salvation/atonement/new life by faith. It is always available. It is always offered. It is not accessed until we believe. Until we believe, we need forgiveness.


The fact is, the view of the atonement which underlies your reasoning is simply unscriptural. I challenge you to find one scripture which says Jesus paid the debt for sin or paid the penalty for sin.

If on the other hand, the atonement of Christ was a ransom/redemption price from slavery to sin (which Scripture repeatedly says it was), its purpose is clear--to set the captive free from the bondage of sin, to deliver them from sin's power, enabling them to truly walk in newness of life.
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11/21/12 8:56 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
I would think we would all desire to hold to a scriptural view of the atonement only. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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11/21/12 8:58 am


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Post Daniel Rushing
If the forgiveness and absolution of sin is the core message of the gospel, as you suppose, don't you find it odd that in all these LENGHTY portions of Paul you post- forgiveness of sin is never mentioned. In fact, it is a rarely mentioned in the Pauline corpus.

Oh yeah, about Hebrews 6...?
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11/21/12 9:07 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Again, Scripture specifically says Christ's death was a ransom/redemption price. It nowhere says it was a payment of debt. That is a theological fiction often asserted but never demonstrated from Scripture itself.


I guess you'll have argue with yourself over the "debt" issue. My belief is that Jesus took away "the sin of the world". My belief is that God laid on him "the iniquity of us all". Sin has been dealt with.

Your argument that this view means we don't need forgiveness is, again, shadow boxing. His grace was fully expressed on the cross. We now access or avail ourselves of this grace/forgiveness/blessing/salvation/atonement/new life by faith. It is always available. It is always offered. It is not accessed until we believe. Until we believe, we need forgiveness.


The fact is, the view of the atonement which underlies your reasoning is simply unscriptural. I challenge you to find one scripture which says Jesus paid the debt for sin or paid the penalty for sin.

...or that all sins--past, present and future--were paid for by the death of Christ, which is the same thing as the sin debt payment or penal substitution view.
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11/21/12 9:13 am


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Post bradfreeman
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
The fact is, the view of the atonement which underlies your reasoning is simply unscriptural. I challenge you to find one scripture which says Jesus paid the debt for sin or paid the penalty for sin.


What a weird way of arguing! The "view of the atonement which underlies your reasoning"?

Here is my view of the atonement which underlies my reasoning:

Jesus bore the sin of the world in His body on the cross. 1 Peter 2:24
Jesus took away the sin of the world. John 1:29
Jesus became sin and a curse to remove both and give us righteousness and blessing. 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 3:13
Jesus did this "once for all" and "for all time". It is finished. He has sat down at the right hand of God and waits for His enemies to be made His footstool. Heb. 10:10-14
We access and remain in His finished work by faith. Rom 5:1,2

Jesus did what the blood of bulls and goats could never do...it took away our sin. Heb. 10:4. In Christ, our sin is gone.

Quote:
If on the other hand, the atonement of Christ was a ransom/redemption price from slavery to sin (which Scripture repeatedly says it was), its purpose is clear--to set the captive free from the bondage of sin, to deliver them from sin's power, enabling them to truly walk in newness of life.


It absolutely was that too! We have not only had our sin removed, but we have been enabled and empowered to stop sinning! The dominion of sin is broken and removed under grace. Our inner man is created in righteousness and true holiness! Eph. 4:24. We are a new creation, created unto good works in Christ!
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11/21/12 9:19 am


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Post RevSDH
What about the scripture

"The wages of sin is death"

If our sin has been totally erased past, present, and future, then can we live our lives however we want and not have to worry about the penalty of death?
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11/21/12 10:15 am


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Post bradfreeman
RevSDH wrote:
What about the scripture

"The wages of sin is death"

If our sin has been totally erased past, present, and future, then can we live our lives however we want and not have to worry about the penalty of death?


Sin is still at work in our bodies.

Rom. 7:16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh ; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Our flesh is weak, decaying, corruptible and will die (reap corruption) or be changed.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works : 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

The wages of sin is death...Christ died for our sin. In Christ, God will not take our sin into account because we are the "ungodly" that God justifies by faith!
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11/21/12 11:25 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
There is no denying on my part that the Cross of Christ was a once-for-all act, the only sufficient sacrifice for sin, by which believers are forgiven, cleansed, and set free from sin.

Whether you realize it or not, Brad, you are in fact repeating a theory of the atonement when you say things like:
Quote:
Jesus fulfilled the law on our behalf and made a perfect once-for-all sacrifice for all sins that have or will ever be committed (all past and future sins were taken away). Faith in His sacrifice has taken away ALL of our sins,

and:
Quote:
Jesus came to take away the sin of the world and He did just that. Jesus took away the sin of the world -- past, present and future. He dealt with all of it, one time, forever!


The above statements, if true, do indeed require absolute universalism. Whether one calls it the sin debt payment theory or the penal substitution theory or the satisfaction of wrath theory, even if one denies one has an atonement theory at all, the above statements do in fact teach the idea that sin has all been pre-paid for.

But the payment of debt or penal substitution theories are simply not taught in Scripture. Further, they directly imply both universalism and antinomianism, since God would be patently unjust to require sins to be "paid for" more than once (including the sin of unbelief), first by Christ then by the unrepentant sinner in Hell.

Again, the scriptural terminology of His death as a ransom removes all the above difficulties, while definitely avoiding both universalism and antinomianism.

So whether you admit you hold to a theory of the atonement or not, your statement that Jesus death covers all sins, past, present and future is in fact an atonement theory. A patently unscriptural one, but an atonement theory nonetheless.

While it is true that Christ's death was a once-for-all sacrifice, we must look to the Scriptures themselves if we ever hope to understand precisely what atoning sacrifices were designed to do in the Old Covenant and from that biblical background, to then see more clearly what His ultimate, once-for-all sacrifice did accomplish.
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11/21/12 12:34 pm


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Post c6thplayer1
bradfreeman wrote:
RevSDH wrote:
What about the scripture

"The wages of sin is death"

If our sin has been totally erased past, present, and future, then can we live our lives however we want and not have to worry about the penalty of death?


Sin is still at work in our bodies.

Rom. 7:16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh ; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Our flesh is weak, decaying, corruptible and will die (reap corruption) or be changed.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works : 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

The wages of sin is death...Christ died for our sin. In Christ, God will not take our sin into account because we are the "ungodly" that God justifies by faith!



Excellent case study Brad ... Thanks..
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11/21/12 5:53 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
bradfreeman wrote:

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works : 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

The wages of sin is death...Christ died for our sin. In Christ, God will not take our sin into account because we are the "ungodly" that God justifies by faith!


Only sins which have been actually repented of are forgiven, covered, and not taken into account. It's so good to know God forgives and refuses to hold our sins against us when we repent of them.


Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 11/21/12 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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11/21/12 6:29 pm


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