Actscelerate.com Forum Index Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
r/Actscelerate

The fallacy of "Care-taker Pastors"...
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
   Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Feature Presentations This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Message Author
Post The fallacy of "Care-taker Pastors"... W. Ray Williams
In a previous thread about closing churches, I responded that a church of people with no initiative or motivation should have a care-taker pastor and be allowed to die a peaceful death.

I have thought a lot about that in the past 24 hours and find I must apologize. I should have never suggested a care-taker pastor. I should have never suggested a path to a slow death for any church.

I should have suggested a more Biblical approach. They are either luke warm or the Spirit has left. In the former it means they are vomited out of the mouth of God and the latter means they are no longer a church.

I know this will offend many, but it is time we step up and declare that the Kingdom of God is not a spectator sport. The Kingdom of God is about particiaption in the life of a vibrant community of faith. The Kingdom of God is about winning the lost, making disciples, having sign and miracles following us as we press toward the mark.

I, for one, am tired of making excuses for myself and others that are too lazy, too selfish, too over-worked, too tired...(you fill in the blanks)....to seek Holiness, find justice, help the weak, see lives changed in the power of the Holy Spirit.

If we are too "whatever" to be the one working for the Kingdom, we need to step aside and let those that will and can work for the Kingdom move forward We should never be an impediment to the Kingdom.

The illustration church that started this discussion is a classic example of what is happening all over Christendom. I am ok if those 20 people are unable to work as hard as they once were. But they should be seeking ways to support those that can and, actively pursue the will of God in thier church and thier town.

Shame on us (SHAME ON ME) for not demanding only the best and most vigorous actions on behalf of the Kingdom of God. I FOR ONE AM CONVICTED...I must ensure I am not resting, but working.
_________________
Pax,

Ray


Last edited by W. Ray Williams on 10/16/12 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
10/16/12 11:51 am


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism. Quiet Wyatt
I would suggest that anyone who calls pastoring a largely elderly, slowly declining congregation being "a caretaker" has never himself done it. Further, anyone who thinks such a congregation doesn't deserve to exist has quite likely never had any real association with such a congregation. Rather than 'prophetic,' it's actually all too easy to say such things. One has to wonder how such a mentality views the elderly in general.

If I've heard one church growth 'expert' argue for the ecclesiastical equivalent of euthanasia for churches they don't see as valuable enough to exist, I must have heard a hundred. None of whom would ever even remotely consider pastoring a small declining congregation in one of the many small and declining communities in our country, which are truly in many ways the least of these my brethren.

Note: This in no way is meant to defend any church that is as toxic and ungodly as the one described by Ernie Long. To me that is a different question altogether.
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
10/16/12 12:34 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism. Ernie Long
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
I would suggest that anyone who calls pastoring a largely elderly, slowly declining congregation being "a caretaker" has never himself done it. Further, anyone who thinks such a congregation doesn't deserve to exist has quite likely never had any real association with such a congregation. Rather than 'prophetic,' it's actually all too easy to say such things. One has to wonder how such a mentality views the elderly in general.

If I've heard one church growth 'expert' argue for the ecclesiastical equivalent of euthanasia for churches they don't see as valuable enough to exist, I must have heard a hundred. None of whom would ever even remotely consider pastoring a small declining congregation in one of the many small and declining communities in our country, which are truly in many ways the least of these my brethren.

Note: This in no way is meant to defend any church that is as toxic and ungodly as the one described by Ernie Long. To me that is a different question altogether.


Spoken by someone whos knows what he is talking about.

To address your note, Why is my church ungodly? I will agree it is a toxic mess. These people love the Lord in their own way, but to call them ungodly??? I can't agree with that and if that is the picture I have painted of them, I apologize, that wasn't my intent.

Are they lazy? Yes.

Stubborn? Yes.

Comfortable? Yes.

Satisfied with a routine? Yes.

Unwilling to submit to authority? Yes.

Happy with our four and no more? Yes.

Ungodly? NO!!!!
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1050
10/16/12 12:57 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
Ernie, that is the impression I got from your description. I couldn't call that truly 'godly.' Sounds like goats more than sheep. (To be fair, I think my church has several goats in it too, though not nearly as many as yours sounds like it does). [Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
10/16/12 1:03 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post bonnie knox
Ernie, I think you might be surprised to know the picture you have painted of your congregation. I looked up your physical church building on Google maps (since my Aunt Marjorie, Clint's Grandma, goes there). Honestly I had pictured a little building like one might see in south downtown Raleigh with a tiny property, a sign with weeds growing around it, used tires spilling onto the property from the guy next door, chain link fences and barred windows on the neighboring properties. But that's not how it looks. The area is what I would call a nice residential area. Your property is large and not the run down eyesore I had gotten the image. I just wonder if I have gotten the wrong picture of the people as well. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/16/12 1:09 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
(I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm picking on you, brother. I honestly don't mean to. I just would not call a group like you describe true sheep). [Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
10/16/12 1:09 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism. roughridercog
Ernie Long wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
I would suggest that anyone who calls pastoring a largely elderly, slowly declining congregation being "a caretaker" has never himself done it. Further, anyone who thinks such a congregation doesn't deserve to exist has quite likely never had any real association with such a congregation. Rather than 'prophetic,' it's actually all too easy to say such things. One has to wonder how such a mentality views the elderly in general.

If I've heard one church growth 'expert' argue for the ecclesiastical equivalent of euthanasia for churches they don't see as valuable enough to exist, I must have heard a hundred. None of whom would ever even remotely consider pastoring a small declining congregation in one of the many small and declining communities in our country, which are truly in many ways the least of these my brethren.

Note: This in no way is meant to defend any church that is as toxic and ungodly as the one described by Ernie Long. To me that is a different question altogether.


Spoken by someone whos knows what he is talking about.

To address your note, Why is my church ungodly? I will agree it is a toxic mess. These people love the Lord in their own way, but to call them ungodly??? I can't agree with that and if that is the picture I have painted of them, I apologize, that wasn't my intent.

Are they lazy? Yes.

Stubborn? Yes.

Comfortable? Yes.

Satisfied with a routine? Yes.

Unwilling to submit to authority? Yes.

Happy with our four and no more? Yes.

Ungodly? NO!!!!


This is a description of so may of our congregations. They won't grow and they won't go away.

But close them?

That's not a church closure. It's euthanasia.
_________________
Doctor of Bovinamodulation
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
10/16/12 1:41 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism. W. Ray Williams
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
I would suggest that anyone who calls pastoring a largely elderly, slowly declining congregation being "a caretaker" has never himself done it. Further, anyone who thinks such a congregation doesn't deserve to exist has quite likely never had any real association with such a congregation. Rather than 'prophetic,' it's actually all too easy to say such things. One has to wonder how such a mentality views the elderly in general.

If I've heard one church growth 'expert' argue for the ecclesiastical equivalent of euthanasia for churches they don't see as valuable enough to exist, I must have heard a hundred. None of whom would ever even remotely consider pastoring a small declining congregation in one of the many small and declining communities in our country, which are truly in many ways the least of these my brethren.

Note: This in no way is meant to defend any church that is as toxic and ungodly as the one described by Ernie Long. To me that is a different question altogether.


Wyatt,

I have nothing against elderly Christians. The older and wiser among us should be revered and honored for thier years and service and lessons learned...many times at great cost. I do not want the churches to be euthanized simply because the congregation is older....

But...if the church refuses to be used, refuses to provide insights, wisdom and support to a newer generation of people....If that church decides that they are "retiring" from the Gospel...then yes, I have a problem with that and moreover I truly believe God has a problem with that.

God does not call us to retire.

Please hear what I am saying...not what I do not say. I am not calling for:

1. The wholesale closing of churches because they are not "viable".
2. I did not call for closing churches at all.
3. Dismissing the elderly as irrelevant.


I am saying:

1. Churches that are not living the Great Commission need serious and severe measures taken.
2. God does not call us to sit, be selfish or retire.
3. We must act...with urgency, expediency...

Listen folks...I am usually not this much of an alarmist, ask my Pastor (Billy Humphrey). The end is coming. We have little time. Whether it is the end of the world or the end of me, the end is coming. There is no time to sit around expecting the Gospel to be all about me and meeting my needs. The Gospel is about meeting the needs of others, (many times at my expense) and see the Kingdom of God be manifest is making disciples.
_________________
Pax,

Ray


Last edited by W. Ray Williams on 10/16/12 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
10/16/12 1:48 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism. Clint Wills
Ernie Long wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
I would suggest that anyone who calls pastoring a largely elderly, slowly declining congregation being "a caretaker" has never himself done it. Further, anyone who thinks such a congregation doesn't deserve to exist has quite likely never had any real association with such a congregation. Rather than 'prophetic,' it's actually all too easy to say such things. One has to wonder how such a mentality views the elderly in general.

If I've heard one church growth 'expert' argue for the ecclesiastical equivalent of euthanasia for churches they don't see as valuable enough to exist, I must have heard a hundred. None of whom would ever even remotely consider pastoring a small declining congregation in one of the many small and declining communities in our country, which are truly in many ways the least of these my brethren.

Note: This in no way is meant to defend any church that is as toxic and ungodly as the one described by Ernie Long. To me that is a different question altogether.


Spoken by someone whos knows what he is talking about.

To address your note, Why is my church ungodly? I will agree it is a toxic mess. These people love the Lord in their own way, but to call them ungodly??? I can't agree with that and if that is the picture I have painted of them, I apologize, that wasn't my intent.

Are they lazy? Yes.

Stubborn? Yes.

Comfortable? Yes.

Satisfied with a routine? Yes.

Unwilling to submit to authority? Yes.

Happy with our four and no more? Yes.

Ungodly? NO!!!!


Wait, wait, wait...so it is Godly to be lazy, stubborn, selfish, inwardly focused, and unwilling to submit to authority? If I were ever to feel like I were all those things I'd have a LOT of repenting to do.
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5163
10/16/12 1:49 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post bonnie knox
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/16/12 2:00 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Clint Wills
bonnie knox wrote:
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.


I can imagine you'd be a joy in a Sunday School class!! hahahaha
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5163
10/16/12 2:03 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post bonnie knox
Clint Wills wrote:
bonnie knox wrote:
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.


I can imagine you'd be a joy in a Sunday School class!! hahahaha


Yeah, sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do. Of course I'm pretty mild in Sunday School because I've already done all my venting on Acts.
Although, I did inadvertently cause a few ripples when we had one teacher who came in, the first Sunday as teacher taught from a Church of Christ lesson he had pulled word for word from the internet about how we weren't saved unless we were baptized. I happened to mention the lesson to my husband (a nod to Brother Paul). My husband talked with our pastor. I really had nothing to do with my husband talking to the pastor; I didn't know he was going to, even. The teacher was pretty steamed the next week that "someone had gone to the pastor instead of asking him (the teacher) about the lesson."
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/16/12 2:15 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post bonnie knox
Tom, you invited anyone to look at it through your filter. If you choose the filter, you choose the conclusion.
And who gets to decide how the resources are allocated? It is easy to criticize someone else for not selling their goods and giving to the poor.
I don't get to grab the other guy's talents just because I can use them better than he does.
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/16/12 3:03 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Choose another filter... W. Ray Williams
bonnie knox wrote:
Tom, you invited anyone to look at it through your filter. If you choose the filter, you choose the conclusion.
And who gets to decide how the resources are allocated? It is easy to criticize someone else for not selling their goods and giving to the poor.
I don't get to grab the other guy's talents just because I can use them better than he does.


As long as it is Biblical, choose another filter. I do not believe we are going to find a filter that allows us to act in selfishness and to our level of comfort. The entire reading of the Gospel is about giving of self, not being comfortable, laying one's life down as a sacrifice.

Pick another filter and let's discuss that.
_________________
Pax,

Ray


Last edited by W. Ray Williams on 10/16/12 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
10/16/12 3:16 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Wait just a minute.... Aaron Scott
I have pointed this out elsewhere, but feel I must do so again. Just because a church is in decline and contains mostly old folks who cannot do all they used to do, or are easily outdone by those with more energy and youthfulness, does not mean that church is somehow invalidated or useless.

Here's the simple fact: People who have lived for the Lord DESERVE to be able to worship as they wish to worship! This goes for young folks and old folks. So long as it is the "real thing," LET IT ALONE.

Why should Granny Jones have to watch teenagers bouncing around the stage playing music she can't stand, uttering words she can't understand, etc., while the young people are not likewise compelled to listen to Granny's favorites from the Redback, etc.? It's a double standard, and it has to go.

If a family prefers the worship at the New and Improved Church of God, fine! God bless them and keep them. But there are lots of folks--and, yes, most of them are aged--that grew up loving certain songs and styles, enjoy a more fervent style of preaching, etc. Is it not good and right to seek to give them a place that THEY ENJOY? We do that for young people and young couples--why not for the old folks?

Yes, they are going away. This doesn't mean they love Jesus any less fervently. It simply means that their particular style of worship does not attract the numbers (or perhaps any) that a more modern church attracts. So do we tell them they are no longer important to the kingdom when, if our eyes were opened, we might see many, many years of successful sowing and reaping of the harvest, of investing in the kingdom of God, of launching many ministers into the kingdom?

Here's what it comes down to.... The notion that non-growing churches are somehow invalidated and useless is based on the hidden premise that ALL CHURCHES will pretty much last forever...and will grow, grow, grow forever.

We know, however, that churches have lifespans. That wonderful church that meant so much to you in your youth? It might no longer even be around. Or if it is, it might be a church that none of your current members would find the least bit appealing.

Churches do their part...then they slowly fade away...leaving the work to newer churches and younger people. Neighborhoods change. New churches come to the area and take root. People die. People move away. Churches that can offer more and better are now attracting the people that once, many years ago, would have perhaps found their way to that small church.

And so churches slowly fade away. But they don't fade away all at once. The folks who remember the glory days, who still enjoy the worship in their church, still need a place that ministers to them. They don't want to have to change their whole world in order to attend church. They don't want to have to go to a new church where the pastor doesn't know them...when they have a pastor who has known them for 40 years.

So we minister on to them. Do we think that God is unjust to forget their labor of love and cynically say, "What have you done for me lately?" No. He knows that they would love to see the sort of things they saw in the 1950s and 1960s. He also knows that such things have become, like tent meetings, a thing of the past, for the most part.

"Even to old age...I am He."

We must take care that we do not become spiritual Darwinists (though I know that is not at all the intent of my good brothers who see this differently), coldly willing that a church die a quick death, rather than allow it to gently fade into eternity.

One day, 40 years from now, some ministers who are on the cutting edge today, may feel very differently about how older folks should be handled.

Again, we want young people to go to churches that they enjoy. We spend MILLIONS to get them to our church. And yet we begrudge an older church from ministering to those older folks who enjoy that sort of church?

It's one thing to not want souls saved. It's another thing to simply not be able to minister like you did before.

I have a feeling, though, that many of those who are no longer able, have already outdone many of us many times over.
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6027
10/16/12 3:17 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post There is no theft when it all belongs to God... W. Ray Williams
Major B. Trammell wrote:
bonnie knox wrote:

I don't get to grab the other guy's talents just because I can use them better than he does.


EXCELLENT!!!!!

Tom, I invite you to filter my response to you in that thread through Exodus 20:15.


Major,

I am sure Tom can speak for himself, but had these thoughts to share.

There are unscrupulous ministers and Bishops out there. I will not defend a particular situation as I do not know that situation.

But you cannot use EX 20.15 to say we should not reapportion, re-evaluate or redesignate church funds or property because it belongs to parishoners. It certainly does not belong to them, but to God. We call it God's House when convenient to require certain codes and morays, but it is OUR house when we want to be selfish and defend our lack of attention to the Gospel.

Again...please hear what I am saying and not what I do not say:

1. We should not willy-nilly close churches.
2. We should not act unscrupulously in our stewardship of God's assets.
3. We should never let our good-ole-boy network determine the fate of a church.

We should:

1. Work with urgency that the end is near.
2. If a church is not living out the Great Commission and Commandment, act swiftly and intentionally to bring about change.
3. Remember it is about God and His Kngdom, not our notion of what is owned and not owned by the people who meet in a place and call themselves a church.
_________________
Pax,

Ray
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
10/16/12 3:25 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Clint Wills
bonnie knox wrote:
Tom, you invited anyone to look at it through your filter. If you choose the filter, you choose the conclusion.
And who gets to decide how the resources are allocated? It is easy to criticize someone else for not selling their goods and giving to the poor.
I don't get to grab the other guy's talents just because I can use them better than he does.


No...but if we don't use the talents that we are given, then we can't be too surprised when they are taken away from us.
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5163
10/16/12 3:30 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: Wait just a minute.... W. Ray Williams
Aaron,

This is not about worship styles. This is about passionately pursuing the call of the Gospel by those who claim citenzenship in the Kingdom of God.

There is no problem with providing multiple services to suit differing styles and modes of worship. You could have a Gregorian Chant service. It is about churches that doggedly refuse to be a part of the building of the Kingdom of God.

I am saying something more fundamental than worship styles. I am saying:

If a church is a body of believers, claiming citizenship in the Kindgom of God, they will always strive to fulfill the mandate of the Great Commission/Commandment.
_________________
Pax,

Ray
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
10/16/12 3:35 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
If it is simply a question of real estate, if the congregation paid for the property and facilities, why shouldn't they have the right to continue using it as long as they can afford to? Of course we know it isn't just about real estate.

For that matter, if we're going to make it about property, we must concede that there's nothing in Scripture that says a church should own a meeting place to begin with. So the insistence on 'biblical principle' here seems to just beg the question. Of course we do have the biblical principle of good stewardship, but again, if we're just talking about the property side of things, there is no New Testament reference that I know of which says any congregation, whether big or small, should own a meeting house in the first place, much less, anything that would give guidance as to when a local church's property should be sold and the congregation told they can no longer use the sanctuary they paid for.
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
10/16/12 3:36 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Please read what I am writing.... W. Ray Williams
Major B. Trammell wrote:
That's funny.

When someone wants to justify stealing something, they get all spiritual about it and all the sudden the thing being stolen becomes, "God's."

The same thing happened in the situation I described (not a hypothetical), when the thief called the theft a move of God, despite the fact that it was back room political deals that brought it about.

If it's God's friend, let's let Him decide when to close it down, then.

The problem is that one size doesn't fit all. You're setting up a list of qualifications or circumstances to close churches that you admit none of us owns and you haven't even given thought to the FACT that there may be legitimate reasons why spiritually-strong churches aren't growing numerically or may even be declining.

The COG down the road from you is taking an offering to buy a new coffee maker. A coffee maker will not make disciples and purchasing one will not fulfill the Great Commission. Let's see you march into that church office and seize, and reapportion, and redistribute God's money to a place where you think it will be utilized better. Be prepared to turn in your credentials when you make bail, though.


I have not talked about closing a church.

I am not talking specifics of a church real or hypothetical.

I am not excusing the bad behavior of people who spiritualize theft.

I will say that a spiritually strong church will be one that is growing. To say something is healthy implies vibrancy and vitality. it implies a church that is doing the work of the Lord. The Great Commission/Commandment. Living out Matthew 25. Loving thier neighbor. Praying for thier enemies.

That kind of stuff. In a day and time when suicide, abortion, mayhem, war and all kinds of atrocities are the norm, we cannot sit still and just be concerned with "our 4 and no more".
_________________
Pax,

Ray
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
10/16/12 3:43 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Feature Presentations This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 1 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Acts-celerate Terms of Use | Acts-celerate Policy
Contact the Administrator.


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group :: Spelling by SpellingCow.