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Fallen From Grace... No Eternal Security!
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Post Re: Here's another one from Jesus chainrattler
Poimen wrote:
mytimewillcome wrote:
Poimen wrote:
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


But both are still in the kingdom


I don't think that's what it means, but nice try.


Chris, I submit that the reason you don't think that is what it means is because your theology that you have been taught all your life won't allow you to accept that that is what it means.

This is what I meant by my earlier post. We have a tendency to put our theology ahead of the plain text of Scripture. So if there is a conflict between our theology and what Scripture says, we assume that our theology is right and therefore, whatever Scripture actually says it cannot possibly mean. I'm not singling you out, we all have this tendency.

I was taught to believe in the Scripture literally wherever possible, and where it seemed impossible to take the Scripture literally (such as metaphors and such) to use other Scripture to help me understand the true meaning of what was unclear or fantastic. But what I was never taught to do was to bring my theology with me to the table and judge the meaning of Scripture through my theology. That can lead to serious error.

Your theology (and mine too) has taught you that the term "falling from grace" is synonymous with the term "losing your salvation". So every time you read "falling from grace" your mind interprets that phrase as losing your salvation.

Then you come to Scriptures like this: "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.", and your mind doesn't see or consider the first half of the verse, it only sees the second half because of your theology, and doesn't even try to deal with the first half of the verse.

Here is evidence. In your concluding statement in this post you say, "Yes friend, believers today CAN fall from grace, and that by returning to a life of sin and/or not abiding in Christ." A question. Where does your definition for "falling from grace" come from in the statement I just cited? I submit that it comes from your predetermined theology that you bring to the table with you when you read this verse. Your theology guides you, when you see the words "fallen from grace", to interpret that phrase as meaning "losing your salvation", and as a result you come up with the final statement I copied and pasted from your post. And it is a perfectly sensible response based on filtering the Scripture through your theology instead of allowing the Scripture to inform your theology. As I said, I'm not singling you out, we're all guilty of doing it.

I do not believe the phrase "falling from grace" is found anywhere else in Scripture (if I'm wrong someone can correct me, but I'm talking about the literal phrase here, not concepts regarding its meaning). The phrase is unique in Scripture, therefore we should and cannot ascertain its meaning through the ordinary process of filtering Scripture through our theology (which we should never do anyway). Instead, we should use other Scripture to derive it's meaning, beginning with the words immediately preceding it.

The true meaning of the phrase "falling from grace" is directly connected to the words "You who are trying to be justified by law". So, the meaning of the phrase is directly connected to an attempt by someone to justify themselves before God by adherence to some aspect of the Law of Moses. This attempt at self-justification has two catastrophic effects:

1. It results in the person being "alienated" from Christ.

2. It results in them "falling from grace".

3. There is a possibility that the phrase "falling from grace" is a descriptive phrase that illuminates the meaning of being alienated from Christ.

The point is, the meaning of "falling from grace" determined by examining the Scripture in which it is found, leads to the conclusion that "falling from grace" is connected with an ill-advised attempt at doing something good (justifying oneself through the Law) instead of the meaning "returning to a life of sin"

The first and true definition comes from allowing Scripture to speak for itself and mold our theology. The second definition comes from allowing our theology to define the meaning of Scripture, especially when Scripture seems to disagree with our theology.

Poimen wrote:
It is a statement of contrast, and of condemnation. It is then followed with "except your righteousness exceed that of the scribes and pharisees ye shall in no case enter the kingdom of heaven."


No, it is not followed by such a verse. The phrase fallen from grace is found in Galatians. The phrase "except your righteousness exceeds...." is found in the gospels? Now, why do you think you made this mistake? (I don't think it's because there is anything wrong with you). Instead, I think it is further evidence of how we allow our theology to bend the meaning of Scripture to fit our theology. We think faster than we speak, so what happened? Here is what I believe was the scenario:

We come across the phrase "fallen from grace", and without considering the other Scripture around the phrase, our theology immediately defines it for us: "That means to lose your salvation".

The next step then, is for our minds to search for other Scriptures that support this definition that our theology has given us, especially when a cognitive dissonance is created by the plain meaning of the text in contrast with our theology. (It can't possibly mean what it seems to say by just simply reading it -or- I can't make the connection between what it says and the words surrounding it, so I consult my theology to create a definition for me to resolve the confusion).

Poimen wrote:
We also know that Scripture tells us explicitly in various places that people who do various things (i.e. hate, fornicate, steal, extort, get drunk, etc.) will not inherit the kingdom. Consequently, unless or until they repent, they will find themselves cut off, dried up, and gathered at the last to be burned.


Although everything you say in this part of your post is true, it has nothing to do with the definition and meaning of "falling from grace". This statement is based on the definition of the phrase given to you by your theology, but the phrase itself does not mean any of the things you've cited here.

These behaviors are directly connected to not continuing to live by faith or be led by the Spirit, however, they are not connected to the meaning of the phrase fall from grace. Falling from grace is simply attempting to be justified before God by adherence to some aspect of the Law of Moses, thus providing our own righteousness, instead of receiving our righteousness from God through faith in Jesus Christ.
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10/6/12 8:23 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:19, 20 ESV) [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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10/6/12 9:11 am


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Post Randy Johnson
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:19, 20 ESV)


It seems in this passage that Jesus recognized that the Pharisees had a level of righteousness but it was insufficient to gain them entrance into the kingdom of heave.

It would be interesting to know what level of righteousness the Pharisees had and what can be done by us to exceed that level of righteousness.

Any ideas?
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10/6/12 9:37 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Randy,

I think Jesus was pointing towards the need for true inner righteousness/purity of heart, as He did so often in the Gospels. The Pharisees only had cleansed the outside of the cup.
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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10/6/12 9:46 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
(I posted Matt 5:19-20 to show chainrattler what Poimen was referring to). [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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10/6/12 10:01 am


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Post Randy Johnson
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Randy,

I think Jesus was pointing towards the need for true inner righteousness/purity of heart, as He did so often in the Gospels. The Pharisees only had cleansed the outside of the cup.


Thanks, Wyatt!
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10/6/12 11:02 am


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Post mytimewillcome
Randy Johnson wrote:


It would be interesting to know what level of righteousness the Pharisees had and what can be done by us to exceed that level of righteousness.

Any ideas?


C'mon, guys. This is Theology 101. Jesus Christ is our righteousness!

Jesus was pointing to the need for a greater level of righteousness through faith in Him. The Pharisees were certainly "do-gooders" but it still wasn't good enough.

We are not able to produce the righteousness in and of ourselves needed to gain entrance into the kingdom. All that is needed is faith.
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10/6/12 2:05 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
I agree that we can be sanctified (have a pure and clean heart) by faith in Jesus Christ only. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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10/6/12 2:15 pm


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Post bradfreeman
Randy Johnson wrote:
It would be interesting to know what level of righteousness the Pharisees had and what can be done by us to exceed that level of righteousness.

Any ideas?


Here you go my friend, in a nutshell:

Phil. 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law (pharisees, human effort, outer man discipline), but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith (believers, by grace, inner man holiness),

The law cannot make anyone righteous. Faith, however, gives us the gift of righeousness. Believers are the righteousness of God.
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10/7/12 7:45 am


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Post Re: Here's another one from Jesus bradfreeman
Poimen wrote:
mytimewillcome wrote:
Poimen wrote:
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


But both are still in the kingdom


I don't think that's what it means, but nice try. It is a statement of contrast, and of condemnation. It is then followed with "except your righteousness exceed that of the scribes and pharisees ye shall in no case enter the kingdom of heaven."


You cannot be arguing that either of these groups are not "in the kingdom of heaven", can you? They are not condemned. Jesus certainly knows how to say someone will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Right?

Quote:
We also know that Scripture tells us explicitly in various places that people who do various things (i.e. hate, fornicate, steal, extort, get drunk, etc.) will not inherit the kingdom.


The scriptures you refer to reference the kingdom of God, not the kingdom of heaven. Although, God's desire is for both to prevail on earth. Our actions in the natural bring about God's kingdom coming and His will being done "on earth as it is in heaven".

Quote:
Yes friend, believers today CAN fall from grace, and that by returning to a life of sin and/or not abiding in Christ.


Seems that you have chosen to take a position opposite of Paul with regards to falling from grace. He specifically states that by choosing to operate under the old system that measures your righteousness by your successes or failures in keeping the rules is how you become "severed from Christ" and "fall from grace". He nowhere references "sin" in the passage.

Gal. 3:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law ; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
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10/7/12 8:02 am


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