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Why do small churches stay small?
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Post Some churches are small usefull
because the people wants them small. You can't be a big fish in a small pond, if the pond grows. Friendly Face
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9/19/12 5:53 am


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Post And then there's this.... Aaron Scott
For lack of a better word, some churches grow DESPITE their inadequacies...and some don't DESPITE their excellence.

I attend a church with a very forward-thinking pastor. We hold events, we have VBS, we are a friendly church, etc. In fact, that's how our church has been for about the last 15 or so years. When I first came to this church, I was absolutely certain that with the excellent preaching, the best praise team in the county, and the exuberant fellowship and youth of our church, that we would quickly become the largest church.

It didn't happen. Yes, we grew. We eventually were 26th in our state in Sunday School and lots of great things happened. But we didn't bust down the walls, so to speak.

Down the road, there is a large Pentecostal church whose preaching, by good and sincere men of God, is still about two steps behind the Church of God preachers in our town. Their music is just one notch above Red back, and their sound system and music is not anywhere near acceptable levels, usually.

And yet they are the biggest Pentecostal church in the area!

WHY?

I finally realized that while SOME people may come to a church because of great singing or what have you, most people go because of...CONNECTIONS. If their family goes there, if their friends go there, the singing, preaching, and ministries are of secondary importance. This is why churches can hold well-planned, thoughtful events...and yet not see much change in their attendance numbers.

Some of this might be attributable to less than great follow-up or linkage, but most of it is because those people, though they come to your event--even to massive revivals--"fit" somewhere else better...perhaps where their family attends.

In 2001, we had one of those MASSIVE revivals. Five weeks of total awesome. At the end, though hundreds from the area had been blessed...we gained about 5-7 people. Now, it so happens that those people are worth their weight in gold and are now in the ministry, etc. But large increases, no.

People go to churches, mainly, I believe, because of connections. That is why friend-on-friend witnessing is so effective. Of family-on-family. A built-in connection is already there. Yes, some come for other reasons. And some churches may operate outside this principle altogether. But if great preaching, singing, fellowship, and ministry were the key, my church would be about seven times bigger.

There is simply more to it. And there is NO MAGIC BUTTONS, despite the millions of dollars of sales in "How to Grow Your Church" books.
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9/19/12 6:52 am


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Post you can wayne
skinnybishop wrote:
Eddie Robbins wrote:
One reason is that if you are a family looking for a church, it's pretty hard to take your teenagers where there the youth group has 4 kids in it. The same for the younger children. I believe that most families choose their church based on what is offered to their kids. Small churches just can't do it for them.


I agree with that statement. On the other hand, it can be fairly difficult to grow more productive ministries, when people won't give smaller churches a chance.

That is one reason churches stay small. For certain, that is not the only reason. My point is, few people want to help develop and build ministries. They want to walk into one that is already in place, with all the bells and whistles.

As a pastor of a smaller church, it can often feel like you are chasing your tail. You have a small youth group or children's ministry, but can't grow because everybody wants to take their family to the huge church across town.....that has 200 kids on Wednesday night.

How are you going to grow if people won't give the 4 person youth group a chance?

SkinnyBishop,
You can grow your youth group but not by adding other Christians to your congregation. If you have a couple good workers in your church - I can tell you how to increase your youth group. It's really not all that hard but it does require commitment, hard work and lot's of patience from just a few.
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9/19/12 7:43 am


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Post Clint Wills
InspiredHillbilly wrote:
Clint Wills wrote:
InspiredHillbilly wrote:


And on top of that... too many churches play to that mentality... trying to "sell" their church to guests/visitors. Frankly, if someone visits and the size of the youth group, or children's ministry... or physical building... or quality of music play into the decision of whether that should be their home church... their heart isn't right to begin with.


Since when are we trying to reach people who's heart is in the right place??


taking my comment out of context... wasn't talkin about soul winning or the unchurched... this was more in reference to "christians" who are looking for a church for some reason.


My mistake...I don't get too concerned about whether or not we are attracting believers.
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9/19/12 9:39 am


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Post Eddie, good point Aaron Scott
There's something to that saying about "the rich getting richer." Large churches have the resources, financial and human, to create big, effective ministries.

A couple looking for a church that will be inviting to their children also are much more likely to join the ALREADY large church that has such things in place.

Also, some new plants soar. Why? Well, some of it is likely because of great preaching and music, but a thoughtful plant has an air of adventure and excitement that attracts. Consider that new plants almost never draw an audience that consists mainly of seniors. Why? Those seniors are likely already connected elsewhere. So a new plant can reach those who are not well-connected to their own churches, as well as new people who come to feel the need of being connected to something fresh and exciting.

But it's kind of like financial interest. The more principal you have, the greater the interest you will accrue. The more people you have, the more people seem to come...until you reach equilibrium of some sort.
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9/19/12 3:41 pm


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Post Staying 4golf
I have been involved with several small churchs and the main thing I see the reason they not just stay small is they die a slow gradual death! Little by little each year till the doors close. The main reason I have seen is they are not first and formost about souls and reaching the lost. Most are not churchs, but mearly a hang out joint! I preached at a small church like this that the only different betwween alot of social clubs churchs and the V.F.W is this church has a cross on the building! Many of these small churchs Ichob had been written on the door long ago. They expect the preacher to bring people in. I told a small church that I pastored it is your place to bring people into here, sheep have sheep. Sheppards don't have sheep. Yes alot of the time they have suffered from a bad preacher, but the preacher is not the main problem. I have seen churchs with bad preachers that still grow, because they took there calling to heart and lived it. That is what I have seen. It is one of the sadest things you can see is a dead church and they think they are alive!
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9/19/12 6:38 pm


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Post Re: Staying Christlaw
4golf wrote:
Many of these small churchs Ichob had been written on the door long ago.

Are you sure? I heard they had "Michelob" written over the door.
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9/19/12 6:50 pm


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Post Re: Staying Cojak
4golf wrote:
I have been involved with several small churchs and the main thing I see the reason they not just stay small is they die a slow gradual death! Little by little each year till the doors close. The main reason I have seen is they are not first and formost about souls and reaching the lost. Most are not churchs, but mearly a hang out joint! ............... Sheppards don't have sheep. Yes alot of the time they have suffered from a bad preacher, but the preacher is not the main problem. I have seen churchs with bad preachers that still grow, because they took there calling to heart and lived it. That is what I have seen. It is one of the sadest things you can see is a dead church and they think they are alive!


I think you are 'maybe' partially right. In the past 30 years it has been the preacher, his personality or charisma. I have never seen a church grow that the pastor did not lead in soul winning. In the 'long time ago' members were taught to go tot he church nearest them. They were to stay no matter how bad or good the pastor.
Now church members have learned they do not have to stay at a church where a preacher continually beats them over the head, they can leave.

If it isn't mostly the preacher, why do a good many churches start a down hill slide when the 'super' pastor leaves?

A business dies because of poor leadership. A restaurant goes under when the manager takes the attitude, take it of leave it. Some churches have been so hurt they will never come out of it. I knew a business man who would call some businesses and churches 'snake bit', they will never recover.

I have attended some wonderful small churches and know many dedicated ministers, men who have literally given their lives to the church, serving and aiding a small group of Christians who have been beaten down.

Not saying all meet these guidelines, but most do and do not have Michelob or Icabod over the door. Of course that is my opinion. Wink

Grow in number? Not every church will grow in number just like every general store will not be a Walmart, but there is a place for them in the economy and in God's service. Cool
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9/19/12 9:15 pm


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Post missionaldawg
I really think you have do define the word small here. Is a small church a church that runs 400 in a town of 600,000? Is a small church one that runs 100 in a town of 2,000? What is small?

Now most churches stay small because of lack of vision and lck of buy in. Others because of Gods sovereignty. Some because the people of the church would rather have a visitation minister/great preacher, but not a pastor or visionary leader. There are TONS of reason that churches grow and don't grow.

I heard Mark Driscoll speak on pruning at the NLC a few years ago. God pruns for these reasons, so that we grow and produce more fruit or so that we die and that was our purpose. After pruning either we will grow and bear more fruit or we will die. We have to ask ourselves the question on dying churches are we trying to save something God is trying to prun or something that was pruned and is dying.....I got lots more on this subject, but I digress!
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9/19/12 9:19 pm


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Post Brandon Bowers
In this discussion we need to separate 2 kinds of growth here - transfer growth and evangelistic growth..

In the area of transfer growth, I agree with Inspired Hillbilly. There are a ton of consumer Christians out there looking for the Golden Corral of churches that can offer everything you'd ever want on a buffet.. As someone who's been involved in church planting, and as a parent, there is a fine line here.. Yes, we want our kids to have good church programs, but I also realized that while our church was in its infancy, we had to help create a core kids ministry for other kids to come to.. It goes both ways. When a church is small, you're going to have to ask some people to be committed, regardless of the size and perceived "quality" of the programs and ministries... But in the meantime, parents are going to have to take some responsibility at home to instill some Christian values and education in their kids.... Come on, church is a couple of hours a week at most. I can promise you that your kids can make it in a "lesser quality" setting while the program/ministry is being built. Make sure the basics are happening, and it's ok if your kids don't have puppets, video, lights, and a band right away.

Now, from the evangelistic side of things -- if your church isn't outward focused, you'll never grown. That's the bottom line, unless you're in a very rural community that has no growth. Our church is only 2 years old, but we have a healthy level of growth and just moved into a new building... Now, the church my dad grew up in is located in a very rural farming community, about 15 miles away from the closest town. My grandfather, who has been dead since 1984 helped that church recover from damage many years ago... Since then, they've not built anything there except a picnic pavilion and more graves in the graveyard.... But that community isn't growing either.. It's mostly aging farmers and their families who decide to stay on and keep the farms going.

So you have to be fair in evaluating the whole story. Some churches stay small because they are full of small minded, inwardly focused people with poor leadership... Some stay small because there's simply no growth in the community... Some are small because they can be more effective small... You can't make any blanket statements on this one, as there are too many variables...

And not all big churches are effective either. I know many churches that grow from the problems of other churches, and the problems just transfer with them...
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9/19/12 10:03 pm


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Post Christlaw
Brandon Bowers wrote:
In this discussion we need to separate 2 kinds of growth here - transfer growth and evangelistic growth..

In the area of transfer growth, I agree with Inspired Hillbilly. There are a ton of consumer Christians out there looking for the Golden Corral of churches that can offer everything you'd ever want on a buffet.. As someone who's been involved in church planting, and as a parent, there is a fine line here.. Yes, we want our kids to have good church programs, but I also realized that while our church was in its infancy, we had to help create a core kids ministry for other kids to come to.. It goes both ways. When a church is small, you're going to have to ask some people to be committed, regardless of the size and perceived "quality" of the programs and ministries... But in the meantime, parents are going to have to take some responsibility at home to instill some Christian values and education in their kids.... Come on, church is a couple of hours a week at most. I can promise you that your kids can make it in a "lesser quality" setting while the program/ministry is being built. Make sure the basics are happening, and it's ok if your kids don't have puppets, video, lights, and a band right away.

Now, from the evangelistic side of things -- if your church isn't outward focused, you'll never grown. That's the bottom line, unless you're in a very rural community that has no growth. Our church is only 2 years old, but we have a healthy level of growth and just moved into a new building... Now, the church my dad grew up in is located in a very rural farming community, about 15 miles away from the closest town. My grandfather, who has been dead since 1984 helped that church recover from damage many years ago... Since then, they've not built anything there except a picnic pavilion and more graves in the graveyard.... But that community isn't growing either.. It's mostly aging farmers and their families who decide to stay on and keep the farms going.

So you have to be fair in evaluating the whole story. Some churches stay small because they are full of small minded, inwardly focused people with poor leadership... Some stay small because there's simply no growth in the community... Some are small because they can be more effective small... You can't make any blanket statements on this one, as there are too many variables...

And not all big churches are effective either. I know many churches that grow from the problems of other churches, and the problems just transfer with them...

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9/19/12 10:06 pm


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Post Christlaw 4golf
Christlaw now that is funny " Michelob over the door"!! I don't care were you are from, that is funny! Come to think of it I wouldn't be suprised to see it over churchs door today. I have lost the stunness of being surprised!
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9/19/12 10:26 pm


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Post revuriah
Patrick Harris wrote:


I can worship anywhere, my focus is will my children be engaged and active.

Patrick


This is a statement I can definitely relate to. I have kids, and our church doesn't have too much to offer right now. But, I know that we are where God wants us.

I am the pastor. It's a very small church. And I now feel the very real pain, pressures, and struggles of trying to grow a small church, after having served on staff at a medium size church, and a very large church. I know the joy of seeing a young family darken the doors, sit through service, weeping as God touches them. But we never see them again. They undoubtedly find a bigger church with more to offer their family, their kids.

I don't blame them. If I weren't the pastor, I'd be prayerfully seeking a place where my kids can get what they need. But in the meantime, it stinks.

Will my church ever get to that place the larger churches are at? I won't limit God, He could send a massive revival, and crazy numeric growth. But He may not choose to go that route, either. I guess my only option is to stick it out, work like it depends on me, and pray like it depends on God, because it does.

I definitely see this from both sides.
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Post InspiredHillbilly
Brandon Bowers wrote:
In this discussion we need to separate 2 kinds of growth here - transfer growth and evangelistic growth..

In the area of transfer growth, I agree with Inspired Hillbilly. There are a ton of consumer Christians out there looking for the Golden Corral of churches that can offer everything you'd ever want on a buffet.. As someone who's been involved in church planting, and as a parent, there is a fine line here.. Yes, we want our kids to have good church programs, but I also realized that while our church was in its infancy, we had to help create a core kids ministry for other kids to come to.. It goes both ways. When a church is small, you're going to have to ask some people to be committed, regardless of the size and perceived "quality" of the programs and ministries... But in the meantime, parents are going to have to take some responsibility at home to instill some Christian values and education in their kids.... Come on, church is a couple of hours a week at most. I can promise you that your kids can make it in a "lesser quality" setting while the program/ministry is being built. Make sure the basics are happening, and it's ok if your kids don't have puppets, video, lights, and a band right away.

Now, from the evangelistic side of things -- if your church isn't outward focused, you'll never grown. That's the bottom line, unless you're in a very rural community that has no growth. Our church is only 2 years old, but we have a healthy level of growth and just moved into a new building... Now, the church my dad grew up in is located in a very rural farming community, about 15 miles away from the closest town. My grandfather, who has been dead since 1984 helped that church recover from damage many years ago... Since then, they've not built anything there except a picnic pavilion and more graves in the graveyard.... But that community isn't growing either.. It's mostly aging farmers and their families who decide to stay on and keep the farms going.

So you have to be fair in evaluating the whole story. Some churches stay small because they are full of small minded, inwardly focused people with poor leadership... Some stay small because there's simply no growth in the community... Some are small because they can be more effective small... You can't make any blanket statements on this one, as there are too many variables...

And not all big churches are effective either. I know many churches that grow from the problems of other churches, and the problems just transfer with them...


Absolute best thing you've ever posted... and I almost never agree with ya....
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Post Carolyn Smith
Brandon Bowers wrote:
In this discussion we need to separate 2 kinds of growth here - transfer growth and evangelistic growth..

In the area of transfer growth, I agree with Inspired Hillbilly. There are a ton of consumer Christians out there looking for the Golden Corral of churches that can offer everything you'd ever want on a buffet.. As someone who's been involved in church planting, and as a parent, there is a fine line here.. Yes, we want our kids to have good church programs, but I also realized that while our church was in its infancy, we had to help create a core kids ministry for other kids to come to.. It goes both ways. When a church is small, you're going to have to ask some people to be committed, regardless of the size and perceived "quality" of the programs and ministries... But in the meantime, parents are going to have to take some responsibility at home to instill some Christian values and education in their kids.... Come on, church is a couple of hours a week at most. I can promise you that your kids can make it in a "lesser quality" setting while the program/ministry is being built. Make sure the basics are happening, and it's ok if your kids don't have puppets, video, lights, and a band right away.

Now, from the evangelistic side of things -- if your church isn't outward focused, you'll never grown. That's the bottom line, unless you're in a very rural community that has no growth. Our church is only 2 years old, but we have a healthy level of growth and just moved into a new building... Now, the church my dad grew up in is located in a very rural farming community, about 15 miles away from the closest town. My grandfather, who has been dead since 1984 helped that church recover from damage many years ago... Since then, they've not built anything there except a picnic pavilion and more graves in the graveyard.... But that community isn't growing either.. It's mostly aging farmers and their families who decide to stay on and keep the farms going.

So you have to be fair in evaluating the whole story. Some churches stay small because they are full of small minded, inwardly focused people with poor leadership... Some stay small because there's simply no growth in the community... Some are small because they can be more effective small... You can't make any blanket statements on this one, as there are too many variables...

And not all big churches are effective either. I know many churches that grow from the problems of other churches, and the problems just transfer with them...


Great post, Brandon, and you didn't mention pooping once. Smile
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Post Revuriah... Aaron Scott
It's all Kingdom work. They come to your church, they are touched, the determine to "get back in church"...AND THEY DO...just not at your church. Your church, however, played a role.

I remember Ray H. Hughes telling about a revival he went to where he didn't have much results. A short while after, another preacher went there and just had great results. RHH was whining about it to God, saying, "God, I plowed the field, etc." God spoke to him and said, "A record is being kept" (or something like that. So whether it shows up on earth's radar, God is not unfaithful to forget your labor of love.

Lastly, I grew up in "small" churches. Yes, we got better over the years in terms of Children's Church, Sunday School, music, etc. But I have always felt that I was the most privileged person on earth to have been permitted to grow up "in the House of the Lord." I loved the Church of God--and I came up during the "Golden Age," you might say, of our denomination--a mixture of modern times and full-bore Pentecostal passion.

Your children may very well be receiving FAR MORE than they ever would if they went to a church that had all the bells and whistles. I sure did. I seldom knew what it was for the children to have their own church--I got to experience the same church the adults did, and I grew to love it with all my heart.
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Post Re: Revuriah... revuriah
Aaron Scott wrote:
It's all Kingdom work. They come to your church, they are touched, the determine to "get back in church"...AND THEY DO...just not at your church. Your church, however, played a role.

I remember Ray H. Hughes telling about a revival he went to where he didn't have much results. A short while after, another preacher went there and just had great results. RHH was whining about it to God, saying, "God, I plowed the field, etc." God spoke to him and said, "A record is being kept" (or something like that. So whether it shows up on earth's radar, God is not unfaithful to forget your labor of love.

Lastly, I grew up in "small" churches. Yes, we got better over the years in terms of Children's Church, Sunday School, music, etc. But I have always felt that I was the most privileged person on earth to have been permitted to grow up "in the House of the Lord." I loved the Church of God--and I came up during the "Golden Age," you might say, of our denomination--a mixture of modern times and full-bore Pentecostal passion.

Your children may very well be receiving FAR MORE than they ever would if they went to a church that had all the bells and whistles. I sure did. I seldom knew what it was for the children to have their own church--I got to experience the same church the adults did, and I grew to love it with all my heart.


I'm not saying we don't play a role...and I am blessed to have played a part. However, we want to grow beyond our few. We want to have more to offer new families, new converts. It is frustrating, no matter how we look at it, to see people come, receive and move on. The idea of the farmer being first to partake in the fruit comes to mind. I don't mind not being first, but could we get just some fruit from it? Embarassed

I know I sound like I'm complaining. In a sense, I am. God will help me with that. But I see a harvest, and I want our church to be a part of that harvest. We have some good things happening. We have seen new converts. We just won a lady who was atheist and had never been in a church before finding us. She is on fire now. Our people share Christ, have won some to the Lord who attend when they can. But we just can't seem to keep families.
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Post Re: Revuriah... Carolyn Smith
revuriah wrote:
Aaron Scott wrote:
It's all Kingdom work. They come to your church, they are touched, the determine to "get back in church"...AND THEY DO...just not at your church. Your church, however, played a role.

I remember Ray H. Hughes telling about a revival he went to where he didn't have much results. A short while after, another preacher went there and just had great results. RHH was whining about it to God, saying, "God, I plowed the field, etc." God spoke to him and said, "A record is being kept" (or something like that. So whether it shows up on earth's radar, God is not unfaithful to forget your labor of love.

Lastly, I grew up in "small" churches. Yes, we got better over the years in terms of Children's Church, Sunday School, music, etc. But I have always felt that I was the most privileged person on earth to have been permitted to grow up "in the House of the Lord." I loved the Church of God--and I came up during the "Golden Age," you might say, of our denomination--a mixture of modern times and full-bore Pentecostal passion.

Your children may very well be receiving FAR MORE than they ever would if they went to a church that had all the bells and whistles. I sure did. I seldom knew what it was for the children to have their own church--I got to experience the same church the adults did, and I grew to love it with all my heart.


I'm not saying we don't play a role...and I am blessed to have played a part. However, we want to grow beyond our few. We want to have more to offer new families, new converts. It is frustrating, no matter how we look at it, to see people come, receive and move on. The idea of the farmer being first to partake in the fruit comes to mind. I don't mind not being first, but could we get just some fruit from it? Embarassed

I know I sound like I'm complaining. In a sense, I am. God will help me with that. But I see a harvest, and I want our church to be a part of that harvest. We have some good things happening. We have seen new converts. We just won a lady who was atheist and had never been in a church before finding us. She is on fire now. Our people share Christ, have won some to the Lord who attend when they can. But we just can't seem to keep families.


There's an old saying..."Despise not small beginnings." Continue to be faithful, and God will bless your efforts.
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Post Cojak
Carolyn Smith wrote:


Great post, Brandon, and you didn't mention pooping once. Smile


ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL
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Post SouthGeorgiaBoy
Does God love the pastor of a "large" church more than He does the pastor of a "small" church? Does He view them in a different light? I remember going to church growth conferences and leave feeling defeated rather than encourage because I was not pastoring a large church. But really I was because I was averaging 105 in a town of 500 people.

Paul Walker shared a vision that the Lord showed him several years ago. In the vision he saw a large vine that stretched as far as he could see in either direction. On that vine was a small insignificant branch. He asked the Lord what that meant. The Lord responded, "I am the vine, you are the branch."

He then said that all of a sudden there were branches all over the vine. They were the same size and he could no longer see his. He asked the Lord what this meant. The Lord responded, "I am the vine and these are the branches that I have connected to me" whether they are pastors of larger churches or small ones. He said the Lord reminded him that he was no more important than the other Shepherds caring for their flocks.

I think the main thing is to be faithful where God plants us.

I read all the post here and there is good points in all of them. I love the dialogue and discussion.
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Posts: 1037
9/20/12 7:32 pm


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