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What would you do to IMPROVE MIP?
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Post philunderwood
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Post What to do to improve MIP? Dean Steenburgh
The book reading or CD/Internet listening is fine for the material that is presented but some of it is redundant as it copies some things that were covered in college. I understand the reason for it's implementation in MIP as we use the current model.

We have a giant hole in our overall system & it comes in the form or need of training people on how to be church planters and/or effective church leaders as pastors. We have way too many churches today that are led by guys who have very little interest in becoming relevant to their community unless the community becomes relative to them first.

Re-training current leaders is probably not the only answer but it would never be shunned either. The answer comes when we make up a dedicated mind with a determined will to make it our goal to spread the message of Christ in "other" places outside of saturated areas.

Consider this if you might:
Take a look at a map of the U.S. & look at the areas where we are the weakest & call that the mission field. If you live in the saturated S/E part of the U.S. & your vision of spreading God's Word is to squeeze in another church between the multiple churches that already exist, then your vision is weak & limited ...in my opinion & in most cases.

However if you have the fortitude to consider planting a church in an area where you are not familiar with the landscape or the culture, then you my friend are not only a church planting candidate but you are a missionary as well. There is never going to come a day in our lifetime where the CoG is going to lose it's S/E identity or it's southern culture. But if we don't embrace the rest of the U.S. as fertile soil for soul harvest & challenge church planters to be willing to take a risk on this mission field, then we will continue our march as a dying movement who has lost it's will to reach 'all' the lost who we have been entrusted to reach.

Last night at a 'meet-n-greet' with the new AB (Charles Fischer) I asked him about church planting efforts & his vision for California in terms of birthing new churches. He said the #1 primary target is San Diego (one of the most beautiful cities in the U.S.) Over 2 million residents, huge college town, military bases, border town to Mexico & our closest fellowship is a group of less than 12 people who meet about 15 miles outside of town. We used to have 3 churches in S.D. with one of them a 250 member church but over the years it shrunk to nothing & the 3 were amalgamated to the one that is 15 miles away ...pretty sad if you ask me. Now with fresh vision & commitment we will make a concerted effort to plant our 1st new church in the very near future in this gorgeous setting. I pray that the Lord will send us the right leaders who will be willing to stay for the long run.



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Post Re: What to do to improve MIP? Nature Boy Florida
Dean Steenburgh wrote:

Take a look at a map of the U.S. & look at the areas where we are the weakest & call that the mission field. If you live in the saturated S/E part of the U.S. & your vision of spreading God's Word is to squeeze in another church between the multiple churches that already exist, then your vision is weak & limited

.


Define saturated?

The north east counties of Florida have well over a million folks - yet COG attendance in that area is less than 1,500.

Is that over saturated?

St Johns County (S.R. 210 and Durbin Crossing) is exploding in new homes and families. I drive through there virtually every day. I have not seen a COG or any Pentecostal church planted there.

Is that over saturated?

Can we declare "Mission Accomplished" here and is it time to move on to new areas where we can have the same success?
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Post Re: What to do to improve MIP? Dean Steenburgh
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Dean Steenburgh wrote:

Take a look at a map of the U.S. & look at the areas where we are the weakest & call that the mission field. If you live in the saturated S/E part of the U.S. & your vision of spreading God's Word is to squeeze in another church between the multiple churches that already exist, then your vision is weak & limited

.


Define saturated?

The north east counties of Florida have well over a million folks - yet COG attendance in that area is less than 1,500.

Is that over saturated?

St Johns County (S.R. 210 and Durbin Crossing) is exploding in new homes and families. I drive through there virtually every day. I have not seen a COG or any Pentecostal church planted there.

Is that over saturated?

Can we declare "Mission Accomplished" here and is it time to move on to new areas where we can have the same success?


California is well over 33 million people & in this whole state we have less than 120 CoG congregations. Compared to Florida where the CoG is the strongest of any state I would say it is time to say we have done a fine job in the South & consider the rest of the nation. You do realize that the rest of the nation needs to hear the message of Christ as well ...right???



.
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Post Re: What would you do to improve MIP chainrattler
Florida Bishop wrote:


I believe now, as I always have, that the International Offices, as well as our State/Regional Offices "exist" for the sole purpose of serving the local church! This is our purpose for being!


In a top-down, hierarchical organization how can this be true? It would seem the opposite, that the local church exists to serve the state office and the state offices exist to serve the International offices. Especially since it explicitly states in the Minutes that local churches have no right to withdraw from the Church of God, which absolutely makes sense if we believe the Church of God to be ONE CHURCH governed from the TOP (PB, EC, GC, GA) DOWN.

I understand where Jesus' admonition "the greatest among you will be the servant of all" applies to the attitudes we should all take regardless of our "rank" in the system, however, that attitude does not change the fact that there is a ranking, and in the polity the COG adopted many decades ago, that polity is an episcopal, top-down, hierarchy similar to what the Roman Catholic church practices.

If, in reality, that is not the way we see ourselves today or want to conduct ourselves as we venture further into the 21st century, why don't we just be honest with ourselves and change the Minutes to actually reflect the type of polity we have grown to realize is more apt for this period in Church of God history?

On the issue of MIP, there are two sides to ministry training:

The Theological Side and the

Social Science (the art of dealing with people)

Many of us get sufficient training in the theological side by growing up in the church under good teaching, preaching, and reading.

Most of us probably don't get sufficient training in the social sciences - that is, how to deal with people, especially difficult people. When I first started pastoring 30 years ago I was young and very naive. I thought everyone came to church for the right reasons and the same reasons. I also thought that everyone saw my role as the pastor the same way I saw my role as the pastor.

I lasted 16 months in that first church and had a rude awakening. Being young, I blamed the people's lack of spirituality, they were dead, lukewarm, etc. But in reality, I simply wasn't mature enough to know how to deal with people. I hated the idea of having to know how to deal with people and considered it a form of compromise with the world and unspiritual (Jimmy Swaggarts sermons against psychology helped with that).

I approached God like a magician. If I just prayed, God would magically fix people (or take them out of my way), and I would be vindicated by God's supernatural power working against the people who opposed me and my vision and call to ministry. After all, isn't that what God did in the Bible for Moses and the Prophets and other great spiritual leaders? And God is no respecter of persons, right? So, if He did it for them, I expected Him to do it for me because I was preaching His Word and ministering to the people in the altars with the gifts of the Spirit. Boy, I tell ya, I was really something!

Yeah, I was really something.

If we need anything in MIP, or any other ministry program, it is lessons in how to deal with people, as well as training in doctrine.
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9/8/12 5:36 pm


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Post Re: MIP training by links, not books Pastor Nations
doyle wrote:
As stated previously, I'm a fan of books. But the internet has brought such a social shift, until even large book stores like Barnes and Nobles are struggling. I may love my fishing boat but if it's sinking, to stay alive I have to find a different way to make progress.

Instead of having to read so many books, why not set up MIP by online links.

Obviously, the link choices would need to be within our COG basic doctrinal guidelines but maybe Lee U, the AG, Church of God of Prophecy, Pentecostal Holiness and fundamental schools like Liberty U or Oral Roberts U would have info about that.

writedoyle@yahoo.com


The AG has it all online:

http://www.globaluniversity.edu/berean_index.cfm

.
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9/8/12 5:54 pm


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Post Re: What to do to improve MIP? Nature Boy Florida
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Dean Steenburgh wrote:

Take a look at a map of the U.S. & look at the areas where we are the weakest & call that the mission field. If you live in the saturated S/E part of the U.S. & your vision of spreading God's Word is to squeeze in another church between the multiple churches that already exist, then your vision is weak & limited

.


Define saturated?

The north east counties of Florida have well over a million folks - yet COG attendance in that area is less than 1,500.

Is that over saturated?

St Johns County (S.R. 210 and Durbin Crossing) is exploding in new homes and families. I drive through there virtually every day. I have not seen a COG or any Pentecostal church planted there.

Is that over saturated?

Can we declare "Mission Accomplished" here and is it time to move on to new areas where we can have the same success?


California is well over 33 million people & in this whole state we have less than 120 CoG congregations. Compared to Florida where the CoG is the strongest of any state I would say it is time to say we have done a fine job in the South & consider the rest of the nation. You do realize that the rest of the nation needs to hear the message of Christ as well ...right???



.


You guys got Jentezen half time.

You got plenty.

Twisted Evil


(I get your point)
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Post John Haywood
I WOULD like an answer to the question about cams being voted down at the assembly then the Gen. office making it mandatory when the GA said no. How can this happen making sometime mandatory that was never approved by the GA. Sad Acts-celerater
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Post Re: What would you do to improve MIP zjudah1
chainrattler wrote:
Florida Bishop wrote:


I believe now, as I always have, that the International Offices, as well as our State/Regional Offices "exist" for the sole purpose of serving the local church! This is our purpose for being!


In a top-down, hierarchical organization how can this be true? It would seem the opposite, that the local church exists to serve the state office and the state offices exist to serve the International offices. Especially since it explicitly states in the Minutes that local churches have no right to withdraw from the Church of God, which absolutely makes sense if we believe the Church of God to be ONE CHURCH governed from the TOP (PB, EC, GC, GA) DOWN.

I understand where Jesus' admonition "the greatest among you will be the servant of all" applies to the attitudes we should all take regardless of our "rank" in the system, however, that attitude does not change the fact that there is a ranking, and in the polity the COG adopted many decades ago, that polity is an episcopal, top-down, hierarchy similar to what the Roman Catholic church practices.

If, in reality, that is not the way we see ourselves today or want to conduct ourselves as we venture further into the 21st century, why don't we just be honest with ourselves and change the Minutes to actually reflect the type of polity we have grown to realize is more apt for this period in Church of God history?

On the issue of MIP, there are two sides to ministry training:

The Theological Side and the

Social Science (the art of dealing with people)

Many of us get sufficient training in the theological side by growing up in the church under good teaching, preaching, and reading.

Most of us probably don't get sufficient training in the social sciences - that is, how to deal with people, especially difficult people. When I first started pastoring 30 years ago I was young and very naive. I thought everyone came to church for the right reasons and the same reasons. I also thought that everyone saw my role as the pastor the same way I saw my role as the pastor.

I lasted 16 months in that first church and had a rude awakening. Being young, I blamed the people's lack of spirituality, they were dead, lukewarm, etc. But in reality, I simply wasn't mature enough to know how to deal with people. I hated the idea of having to know how to deal with people and considered it a form of compromise with the world and unspiritual (Jimmy Swaggarts sermons against psychology helped with that).

I approached God like a magician. If I just prayed, God would magically fix people (or take them out of my way), and I would be vindicated by God's supernatural power working against the people who opposed me and my vision and call to ministry. After all, isn't that what God did in the Bible for Moses and the Prophets and other great spiritual leaders? And God is no respecter of persons, right? So, if He did it for them, I expected Him to do it for me because I was preaching His Word and ministering to the people in the altars with the gifts of the Spirit. Boy, I tell ya, I was really something!

Yeah, I was really something.

If we need anything in MIP, or any other ministry program, it is lessons in how to deal with people, as well as training in doctrine.



Well said...happened to me as well!
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9/8/12 7:55 pm


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Post Saturation? Aaron Scott
While I believe that the Church of God is not "just another" church, I also can see that while we may only have a handful of OUR churches in an area, that church can be "saturated" with other churches, making it very hard for a new plant to take hold.

At the same time, some areas are saturated with Churches of God. Cleveland, hardly a metropolis, has a huge number of churches when compared to much larger areas.

Ideally, we could go into a community with 65 Assemblies of God, set up shop, and STILL draw a sustaining crowd. But while that's ideal, it's not all that likely.

Churches should not only be planted where there are fewer competing churches, independent or of any like denomination, but should be planted where there are few churches PERIOD. It seems as short-sighted to start yet another Church of God in Cleveland as it does to start a Church of God in an area with numerous Pentecostal churches.

Our priority should be in those areas that don't have a strong Pentecostal presence at all, let along a strong Church of God presence.
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9/8/12 7:58 pm


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Post Brandon Bowers
I had a good experience with MIP.

I graduated high school in 1998, wanting to go into ministry, but not ready for college yet. My pastor recommended MIP, so I did it.

The state of VA at that time did a good job with my placement. I grew up in a large church, so they placed me in a smaller church in the next county over. I had a great supervising pastor who was on the state evangelism board, and even though he was surprised to get me, especially as young as I was, I believe he really cared about me. When I was complete with my internship, the church didn't really want me to leave there, but I went back to my home church for a while before I went to Lee.

Some of the posts on here allude to wanting MIP to be less intense. I'm not sure how it is now, but from what I did, I would ask that it be more intense.

The idea is that you might graduate from MIP and "be ready" to get a church. I wouldn't have been ready after my internship. At the time, you were only required to preach 1 sermon during the 9 month internship... Change it to 1 per month!! And as for reading - I would double it. I know pastors who read 1 book per week... And diversify it a little more. I had a ton of COG authors, plus I had to read a woman's devotional... That was kind of irrelevant for a single 18 year old.

My pastor did a good job at meeting with me and keeping me involved in a lot of areas of the church. I had a hand in kids, youth, and outreach. For a church of about 100 people at that time, we were pretty active. I also played in the worship band.

Remember - you only have 9 months.. The expectation should be that it's intense. You're taking college credits while doing practical ministry, and still living life.... Let's be real - most of you full and even part time pastors are putting in a ton of hours at the church, on top of your other commitments. Set the bar very high while your interns are training, and you'll get better results when they're done.

I would also suggest more one on one mentoring. One of the most valuable things I gained was the alone time I had with my pastor, but we were only required to have one meeting a month, and it was more of a checklist type of thing. When we were doing ministry together, planning something together, or simply riding in the car together --- those were more valuable to me than anything, and they just didn't happen enough.

Lastly, because I did MIP before I went to Lee, I was exempted from a lot of stuff at Lee.. I didn't have to do the Pastoral Ministry practicum. I got out of a couple of classes, and since I had my Exhorter's, I was even exempted from going to Chapel... I would suggest getting rid of the practicum and chapel exemptions. A second practicum at the end of my Lee studies would have made for more realistic expectations after I graduated and thought I'd be the next Rick Warren... And the only thing missing chapel did for me was allow me to get more sleep, or to work more at my job.

Hope this helps!
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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
And as for reading - I would double it. I know pastors who read 1 book per week... And diversify it a little more. I had a ton of COG authors, plus I had to read a woman's devotional... That was kind of irrelevant for a single 18 year old.


I know a pastor who would definitely disagree with adding more to the reading. He had a young family and a full time job and was not a person who had done a lot of reading prior to that time. He was literally in tears, trying to keep up with his reading assignment.
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Post Carolyn Smith
bonnie knox wrote:
Quote:
And as for reading - I would double it. I know pastors who read 1 book per week... And diversify it a little more. I had a ton of COG authors, plus I had to read a woman's devotional... That was kind of irrelevant for a single 18 year old.


I know a pastor who would definitely disagree with adding more to the reading. He had a young family and a full time job and was not a person who had done a lot of reading prior to that time. He was literally in tears, trying to keep up with his reading assignment.


I'd agree with this, as well. My husband was full time at ECBC when we when through it, as well as working full time, and we had one child about two years old. (Ok, so going thru the program while still in college was a bit much, but we were young & foolish.) I think the point of all the reading was to teach discipline, but it was a LOT of reading. I think the reading has been whittled down some since we took it. I don't remember a lot about what we read, but one of them was by AW Tozer, and it was so deep, you couldn't read much at a time. The reading was a challenge, and I am an avid reader.

I remember our master pastor telling us a story about something happening in his first church which involved his digging a ditch and some hard physical labor. He looked at his wife from inside that ditch and said, "They didn't tell me anything about this at Lee. They need a course in Ditchdigging 101."

I think the travel and overnight expense involved in some MIP programs is a real strain and sacrifice for married couples. Most of them are also working, so it involves time away from their jobs and a lot of stress. Anything that could be done to relieve this would be great. I agree that modern technology should certainly be utilized to the fullest effect.

I'd also suggest including some things about our heritage (such as "Like a Mighty Army") as well as exposure to other effective ministries inside and outside the COG. Understanding our heritage needs to be passed on to younger generations. And if we are going to win the world for Jesus, we need to do away with the "us four and no more" mentality that we are the only ones going to heaven. I realize most don't think like that anymore, but there are some who have never been exposed to another way of thinking re: church culture, and it would be the perfect time to expand their worlds.
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Post philunderwood
Quote:
If we need anything in MIP, or any other ministry program, it is lessons in how to deal with people, as well as training in doctrine.


This is a horn-toot... CRM's reFocusing process is completely centered on relational intelligence and servant leadership.

Phase One: Focusing Leaders starts with personal renewal. It helps
pastors, leaders, and church members discover God’s unique shaping
of their lives and supports them in aligning their lives around God’s
purposes for them. As God’s children, created in God’s image, each
carries God’s DNA. God’s nature is to be missional. So, each believer is
called to be a person on mission. Focused leaders are missional leaders,
capable of stepping beyond their current circumstances to discover and
live God’s unique, strategic call for their lives -- a call that engages the
world in which they live and minister. Throughout Phase One, the pastor
is supported in learning, modeling, and practicing what it takes to live
a focused life. The coaching and guidance of a trained facilitator, the
personal discovery-based curriculum, and the camaraderie of the other
pastors combine to create a learning environment optimal for change
and growth.

Phase Two: Focusing Your Ministry prepares the pastor to lead well,
while fueling missional momentum in the local church. The result is a
pastor who is equipped and supported in leading a congregation that
is actively engaged in its community, touching lives in a redemptive way.
It is a church “on mission” in its own local context. This phase supports
pastors to become leaders of change both in themselves and in those
they lead, to influence cultural change, develop leaders, empower
teams, catalyze change. Integral to Phase Two is the Focusing the Church
process that takes place in each pastor’s church. It helps to equip lay
teams who assist the congregation to discover and live out:
a) Who God has called each local church to be;
b) Who that church is best equipped to serve;
c) The kind of impact it desires to have on the surrounding community;
d) The values that will dictate how it behaves;
e) The structures that will most effectively support its mission; and
f) A few initiatives to begin meeting real needs of those nearby in Godhonoring
ways.
The genius of reFocusing may be in the way the process values the
contributions of most everyone in the church. As a result, it invites broad
congregational participation in the missional ministry that emerges,
while equipping the local pastor as the champion of the process.

Our Phase One discovery process covers..
Calling to Calendar
Obedience Checks
Building Teams
Spiritual Struggle
Crisis Processing
Coaching Others
Mentoring
Isolation
Facilitating Discovery
Sustained Implementation
Spiritual Authority
Mobilizing Leaders

Phase Two is a little more intensive...
Leading Change
Faith in the Midst of Change
Focusing the Church
Empowering Others
Releasing Control
Problem Solving I
Influenceing Culture
Dealing With Leadership Backlash
Leading Influencers
Being in Conflict
Integrity Checks
Problem Solving II
Missional Leadership
Going Beyond My Comfort Zone
Church Planting
Communicating Vision
Faith Challenge
Ministry Assessment
Anchoring Change
Strategic Living
Role Renegotiation
Mission Implementation

What drives the reFocusing Networks and the Focusing Leaders
process?
The reFocusing of leaders and churches can occur when men and
women choose a life-style of surrender to the King and to the expansion
of God’s kingdom in our hearts, our churches, and ultimately in our
communities. Leadership, vision and strategic focusing are sometimes
questioned. One fear is that tools and processes like these are often
rely more on human planning than listening for and responding to the
plans of God.
The Essentials of the Paradigm
• God is already at work in you, in your church and in your
community.
• There has never been a time when God has not been at work.
• God’s invitation to the church is to join God in His work.
• This invitation to missional effectiveness and vitality will require
absolute surrender on our part.
The Paradigm and Vision
• Our call is not to invent the future the way we would choose it.
• Our call is to discover what God is doing.
• Our call is to align ourselves with God’s intentions and purposes.
• Our call is to release our grip on whatever we cling to, in place
of God, and to entrust ourselves and our future to the God who
knows it all.
The Paradigm Applied
• For congregation members - how is God already at work in their
lives?
• For churches - how is God at work, shaping us for community
impact?
• For communities - how is God at work in the people of this community?



What if an MIP type curriculum followed this kind of process journey?
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Post If you have a candidate carrying out a ministry... roughridercog
in a local church, then do not pull him out of that church to send them to another church. It's one thing to send them to observe a ministry, etc. but for that candidate to be expected to go and serve there would weaken the local church.
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Post Re: First thing... Clint Wills
roughridercog wrote:
If the candidate completed a degree in Bible or pastoral ministries from Lee the MIP should be waived.


Ironically I disagree with this one. The improvement I would make would be to let it be an internship rather than a course. A degree doesn't get you ministry experience. Use CAMS for the course work part and allow MIP to truly be an internship focused less on course work and more on getting into the nitty-gritty of ministry.
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9/10/12 10:57 am


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Post My recommendations... Jason Isaacs
I am 28 years old, have been a senior pastor for almost 5 years and have not gone through the MIP program. I haven't done so for a few reasons:

1. The time commitment for my family
The last time I checked my wife is required to go through MIP with me. She is a full time teacher and at this time in our lives with 2 kids under 5, our family is not ready to make the commitment to 6 weekend at the campground during a 6th month period. Obviously you make time for what you want, and if Andy stanley was inviting me to drive to Atlanta 6 weekends I would do it in a second, but currently for what MIP is, this schedule doesn't work for us.

2. The practicality of the material to my local church mission and environment
I want to be careful to not sound arrogant in how I say this, because I believe there are many different ways to "do" church, but currently MIP is not structured to help a young pastor lead a church in a metropolitan city through contemporary or modern methods. In my opinion, looking in from the outside, the instructors are great men with tenure in ministry who have a wealth of wisdom to shepherding or pastoral care, but minister in completely different environments than what I am trying to build.

3. The Cost
Not because it's too expensive or my church wouldn't cover the cost, but because the cost compared to the quality of the materials isn't good enough in my opinion.

All that being said I love what I'm hearing from Marty and the NGA MIP changes. These are my suggestions for improving MIP (or making it more appealing)
1. Offer digital solutions. Much like online classes for college. We can meet up at the beginning and the end but we should be able to learn the material on our own.
2. Offer the opportunity to test out. Either based on taking an actual test or lead pastor experience. If you can pass the test before you start I think you should be able to bypass the sessions.
3. Offer much more practical experience in thriving local churches. Not just churches that have large attendance because that attendance may have been gained 15 years ago, but find the churches that are growing now, seeing salvations and baptisms, and sit them in the front of the room for Q&A.
4. Offer different streams for those lay ministers who are wanting to be credentialed, and those who are already pastoring who still need to go through the program.
5. Offer MIP credit for going to other training events and conferences. If you are able to go to a round table event with Chris Hodges or Dino Rizzo or Marty Baker shouldn't that count for something?

Just my thoughts. At some point I will go through the MIP because it's the only way I will get to vote at the Assembly, but lucky for me the GA bought me 2 more years until I can be ordained, so I can mature fully.

Jason
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9/10/12 9:17 pm


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Post great question... Jason Isaacs
John Haywood wrote:
I WOULD like an answer to the question about cams being voted down at the assembly then the Gen. office making it mandatory when the GA said no. How can this happen making sometime mandatory that was never approved by the GA. Sad


I would love to hear an explanation from someone who knows about this. I agree, but I'm not sure of what actually happened.

Jason
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9/10/12 9:19 pm


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Post Brandon Bowers
Jason, how asinine is it for you to go through MIP after pastoring for 5 years? What would you gain from it? Can't there be a waiver put in place for guys like yourself?
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9/10/12 9:38 pm


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Post Carolyn Smith
I agree there should be a waiver for people like Jason who are already pastoring.

It's been about 30 years since we wen through the program, and the major thrust of our ministry has not been pastoring, but rather children's ministry. It would also be good to concentrate some time on things besides being a lead pastor. We had no idea at the time we were headed in that direction, but we have since realized it was during that nine month period that my husband first picked up a puppet and changed the course of our ministry.

Probably the main thing that stuck with us through the years is a phrase someone in MIP taught us, "Find a heart and mend it. Find a hurt and heal it." This came to life when one of the couples in our class of MIP students lost a child to a school bus accident. I can't tell you one thing I remember reading during that time, but that incident and the sessions with the pastors teaching us are what impacted us in a big way.
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9/11/12 12:58 am


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