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Gerald Abreu |
On the international front:
How does the COG family in other countries view this issue?
How would a policy change affect them?
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http://geraldabreu.info
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
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There are two ways to enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.
John Adams |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 900
8/17/12 2:10 pm
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Gerald Abreu |
On the international front:
How does the COG family in other countries view this issue?
How would a policy change affect them?
_________________
http://geraldabreu.info
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
Abraham Lincoln
There are two ways to enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.
John Adams |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 900
8/17/12 2:14 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Da Sheik wrote: | Link, don't waste your time on "bonnie" because "she" believes women have the right to be overseers despite the overwhelming evidence otherwise  |
Don't worry, I posted something way back on page 2 about this, and it's pretty well been ignored.
I don't know why you put "bonnie" and "she" in quotes. My real name is Bonnie Knox and I am female (and a wife and mom). (And I do not post under any other user name on ACTS.)
I wouldn't say women have the "right" to be overseers. My position more accurately stated is that I'm not by any means convinced that women are prohibited from being overseers.
The evidence does not overwhelm all of us. |
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Posts: 14803
8/17/12 2:19 pm
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Bro Bob |
| Quote: | | Link, don't waste your time on "bonnie" because "she" believes women have the right to be overseers despite the overwhelming evidence otherwise |
I don't understand the quotes for Bonnie and she.
And I think you misunderstand her. It is my impression that it is not that women "have the right", but that we have the option.
At any rate, it has never been a waste of my time to hear her out. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3945
8/17/12 2:20 pm
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Bro Bob |
Proof that Bonnie types faster and has to edit less than I do before hitting the submit button!!!!
Coolest double post ever! |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3945
8/17/12 2:21 pm
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| Two Awesome Points... |
Aaron Scott |
Bonnie has pointed out that if we take Jesus' choice in disciples to be meaningful, perhaps we should exclude Gentiles from leadership. Although this is not completely telling (since the apostle example is an implication, not a clear statement), I think Bonnie has a point.
But then Link comes along and scores big. Indeed, if we had switched out woman and man with Gentile and Jew, we would not even be having this conversation (perhaps). On what grounds, gentlemen, do we argue about women being in leadership, but would exclude whatever we substituted for women? (E.g., "I do not permit a teenager/novice/Syrian/African/Roman/etc. to usurp authority over a man.") |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
8/17/12 3:22 pm
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| Re: Two Awesome Points... |
PastorJackson |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | Bonnie has pointed out that if we take Jesus' choice in disciples to be meaningful, perhaps we should exclude Gentiles from leadership. Although this is not completely telling (since the apostle example is an implication, not a clear statement), I think Bonnie has a point.
But then Link comes along and scores big. Indeed, if we had switched out woman and man with Gentile and Jew, we would not even be having this conversation (perhaps). On what grounds, gentlemen, do we argue about women being in leadership, but would exclude whatever we substituted for women? (E.g., "I do not permit a teenager/novice/Syrian/African/Roman/etc. to usurp authority over a man.") |
Yes but we can not switch out words it is what it is.
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Posts: 4750
8/17/12 4:02 pm
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| Re: Two Awesome Points... |
bonnie knox |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | Bonnie has pointed out that if we take Jesus' choice in disciples to be meaningful, perhaps we should exclude Gentiles from leadership. Although this is not completely telling (since the apostle example is an implication, not a clear statement), I think Bonnie has a point.
But then Link comes along and scores big. Indeed, if we had switched out woman and man with Gentile and Jew, we would not even be having this conversation (perhaps). On what grounds, gentlemen, do we argue about women being in leadership, but would exclude whatever we substituted for women? (E.g., "I do not permit a teenager/novice/Syrian/African/Roman/etc. to usurp authority over a man.") |
No, Link starts out with a hypothetical and then says it would be foolish to use Galatians 3:28 to argue against the hypothetical.
I happen to think Galatians 3:28 is not a verse to argue for women in leadership. I guess Link missed that. Or ignored it. So really that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
As far as the reference in Timothy about Paul not allowing women to teach or usurp authority over a man, that is ground that has been covered before.
It happens every time you say there were no female kings in the OT. No, but there was a female queen of Judah. That has been pointed out before.
Well, but, she was wicked you will say. Then you will once again assert there were no female kings.
Of course there cannot be a female king since a female monarch is a queen. Aha! See? No female kings!
The explanation of women learning in silence, some will assert, has to do with the culture of the women being disruptive. But Link will say the Bible doesn't say that, but will turn around and appeal to the lack of bishops in history apart from the scripture.
If Junia is mentioned, well we don't know if she was an apostle. If Deborah is mentioned, well the NT apostles bound in heaven their way of operating and that didn't include women. If Priscilla is mentioned, well she taught Apollos in tandem with her husband, so that doesn't count. If Huldah is mentioned, she is ignored.
If it is asserted that Paul's instruction were, in light of the rest of scriptures about women, specific to the situation at Ephesus, there is a demand to know how we can know what is relevant and what is not (as if we can't see the Bible as a whole - and maybe that's the problem). |
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Posts: 14803
8/17/12 4:25 pm
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| Bonnie... |
Aaron Scott |
No, Link's argument does work. He is simply saying that IF we had mentioned X instead of women usurping authority over a man, then we would have also have assumed that, that being the case, X would not be eligible to be a bishop.
Now, if it is indeed the case that we would believe that about X, then he rightfully asks why we are not accepting that when you substitute "women" for X.
That's a reasonable question. Indeed, why would we agree if that "Jews over the age of 70" are not to usurp authority over a man, then that means that "Jews over the age of 70" cannot be in leadership...but just as quickly explain it all away when we say that "women" are not to usurp authority over a man and, therefore, cannot be in leadership?
I do see where you're coming from. I don't think you are realizing where Link is coming from.
As for any "queen" of Israel, you HAVE to know that was by default, not by design. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
8/17/12 4:42 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | That's a reasonable question. Indeed, why would we agree if that "Jews over the age of 70" are not to usurp authority over a man, then that means that "Jews over the age of 70" cannot be in leadership... |
That's a hypothetical question. Yes, we would still argue over it. How do I know? Are there snake handling churches? Yes. There are churches that grab one phrase in the same way Link has grabbed "not usurp authority." |
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Posts: 14803
8/17/12 4:53 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | As for any "queen" of Israel, you HAVE to know that was by default, not by design. |
Ha! I don't think any monarch over Israel, male or female, was God's original intent. I think he wanted judges (like Deborah, for example).
But regardless of whether it was by default or design, it's there. So it is disingenuous to say there were no female "kings."
Also it's circular reasoning on your part to say she was there by default. |
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Posts: 14803
8/17/12 5:03 pm
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| Bonnie... |
Aaron Scott |
Bonnie, I misunderstood who you were talking about as queen. I was thinking of some story (maybe incorrectly) where a child king was usurped by the queen. But Asa's mother was, so far as we know, queen only because she was married to Asa's father (the king).
As for the hypothetical, I don't think you yet understand the point I'm making. Yes, you are correct that it is hypothetical. But what is being asked of you is WHY would you agree (assuming you would) that if it said that a Gentile could not usurp authority over a Jew, that a Gentile could not be a church leader...but if we replace those terms with man and woman, you (apparently) claim that a woman can STILL be a leader? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
8/17/12 5:11 pm
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| Major, I finally figured out your problem... |
Aaron Scott |
You aren't actually READING the arguments. You're just jumping in with your insults.
I am NOT arguing that men and women are not equal. In fact, I claim just the opposite! I claim that ALTHOUGH men and women are equal before God, STILL God has placed the man in the leadership role.
For instance, I am equal to any President of the United States in terms of my humanity and citizenship, etc. But the President is over me in terms of AUTHORITY/LEADERSHIP.
That is what is being argued. Maybe you could take a few moments to inform yourself before you smugly pontificate? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
8/17/12 5:14 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | WHY would you agree (assuming you would) that if it said that a Gentile could not usurp authority over a Jew, that a Gentile could not be a church leader... |
As I mentioned above (in the snake handling reference), undoubtedly some people would, some wouldn't.
So, no, it is not safe to assume I would. Would I not look at the entirety of scripture to determine if that injunction was limited by time and place? (YES!)
You could fairly safely assume that about Link. But I don't know why he doesn't handle snakes. |
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Posts: 14803
8/17/12 5:16 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Bonnie, I misunderstood who you were talking about as queen. I was thinking of some story (maybe incorrectly) where a child king was usurped by the queen. |
We're probably both talking about the same wicked woman Athaliah. Don't start insisting we discount those who ascended to the throne by violence or coup.
There were no female monarchs. Yes, there was one. Well, there shouldn't have been.
That reminds me of the Baptist who, when confronted with Jesus turning water to wine, "Well, he shouldn't have." |
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Posts: 14803
8/17/12 5:22 pm
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Link |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | Bonnie, I misunderstood who you were talking about as queen. I was thinking of some story (maybe incorrectly) where a child king was usurped by the queen. |
We're probably both talking about the same wicked woman Athaliah. Don't start insisting we discount those who ascended to the throne by violence or coup.
There were no female monarchs. Yes, there was one. Well, there shouldn't have been.
That reminds me of the Baptist who, when confronted with Jesus turning water to wine, "Well, he shouldn't have." |
You know Athaliah killed the heirs to the throne (her grandkids) except for one, right? And then the high priest led a coup that ended with her execution.
Jezebel is the other prominent 'queen' (or king's consort) that gets a lot of attention in scripture from the time of kings and queens in Israel's history.
Deborah was a judge. She did make that comment to Barak about the honor of killing the enemy being given to a woman. Lamentations laments women ruling over the people.
As far as we know, Huldah was not a ruler of the people. She was a prophetess. I don't think anyone on here is arguing that God can't or wouldn't use women in prophesying.
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
8/17/12 5:29 pm
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| Re: Two Awesome Points... |
Link |
| bonnie knox wrote: |
No, Link starts out with a hypothetical and then says it would be foolish to use Galatians 3:28 to argue against the hypothetical. |
Where do you get that from my post.
| Quote: |
I happen to think Galatians 3:28 is not a verse to argue for women in leadership. |
Lots of posts on here. Sorry if I overlooked one of your points.
| Quote: |
The explanation of women learning in silence, some will assert, has to do with the culture of the women being disruptive. But Link will say the Bible doesn't say that, but will turn around and appeal to the lack of bishops in history apart from the scripture. |
I'm not reading the history of bishops since the first century into the text. Taking some scholar's guesswork about why Paul wrote what he does in Ephesians-- ignoring the fact that he bases his arguments on creation-- really doesn't sit well with me. You could say, "The reason Moses said not to commit adultery is because they did it in idolatry, but that doesn't apply to us because...." and justify anything with that reasoning. I do believe we should understand what Paul is saying in context, but pulling junk out of the air, backed up by some information about the religious system in Ephesus is really just guesswork. Where is the historical evidence that this was the specific problem with the church.
And if women in the bishoprick were not allowed just because the culture of Ephesus, and they were used to pagan women priests-- then why wouldn't Paul have been in favor of women bishops? If it's supposed to be okay because our culture is egalitarian, why shouldn't it have been allowed in Ephesus if they were a bit egalitarian?
I do think the fact that the idea of female bishops is so new, and the fact that we are surrounded by a culture that has embraced feminist and various other egalitarian concepts has a lot to do with opinions on the matter. (The idea of women in formal pastoral ministry predates feminism, although it may have risen in popularity along side women's suffrage and similar movements. Feminism's influence on our culture, no doubt, has helped aid the popularity of ordaining women in these types of roles.)
| Quote: |
If Junia is mentioned, well we don't know if she was an apostle. |
It's not clear in Greek or English, and if she was, does that really prove the point? If the church sent her out with her husband, does that make her a bishop? Were the Corinthian 'apostles' who delivered money in II Corinthians bishops or did they appoint bishops? Did Epaphras-- maybe if he was Epaphraditus.
| Quote: |
If Deborah is mentioned, well the NT apostles bound in heaven their way of operating and that didn't include women. |
The apostles appointed elders, senior men. They didn't appoint one big female judge. And they gave requirements for the judges. Lamentations laments children and women ruling over the people, and the apostles didn't say appoint children or women as bishops. They appointed elders. They said to appoint the husband of one wife who ruled his house well who was not a novice. The issue is not who is going to rule Israel.
| Quote: |
If Priscilla is mentioned, well she taught Apollos in tandem with her husband, so that doesn't count. |
I think I said that passage is worthy of consideration in regard to women's roles and ministry and such, but it doesn't allow female bishops.
| Quote: | | If Huldah is mentioned, she is ignored. |
She was a prophetess, not even a ruler, right?
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
8/17/12 5:44 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | You know Athaliah killed the heirs to the throne (her grandkids) except for one, right? And then the high priest led a coup that ended with her execution.
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Relevance? Aaron said there were no female kings. I was merely pointing out there was a female monarch.
| Quote: | | Jezebel is the other prominent 'queen' (or king's consort) that gets a lot of attention in scripture from the time of kings and queens in Israel's history. |
No, we musn't forget Jezebel. She is a favorite of people who think women should not wear make-up, be in leadership, etc, etc.
She has no relevance to Aaron's statement, nor mine.
| Quote: | | Deborah was a judge. She did make that comment to Barak about the honor of killing the enemy being given to a woman. |
Is that evidence that women are inferior or merely evidence that in that patriarchal society it would be embarrassing to be shown up by a woman?
| Quote: | | As far as we know, Huldah was not a ruler of the people. She was a prophetess. I don't think anyone on here is arguing that God can't or wouldn't use women in prophesying |
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So what do you do when the prophecy includes telling the king the direction to go? Must we not have that because that would mean her words are authoritative?
| Quote: | | Lamentations laments women ruling over the people. |
The context (as I've pointed out before - are you ignoring what I say because I'm a woman?) is that so many men have been killed in battle, there are no men left to rule.
Last edited by bonnie knox on 8/18/12 12:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Posts: 14803
8/17/12 5:45 pm
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Link |
| Quote: | | So what do you do when the prophecy includes telling the king the direction to go? Must we not have that because that would mean her words are authoritative? |
True prophecy is authoritative because God is communicating to His people. The prophet has authority to say the words of God. But that doesn't make the prophet a rule. Sometimes the prophet was a ruler, too, as in the case of Moses. Other times, he is not, as was the case with most of the prophets we read about in scripture.
A prophet is not automatically a bishop. One could be a prophet without being an elder. One could be a novice and be gifted as a prophet, I suppose. A prophet could conceivably rule his house poorly and have disrespectful, unfaithful children.
| Quote: |
Quote:
Lamentations laments women ruling over the people.
The context (as I've pointed out before - are you ignoring what I say because I'm a woman?) is that so many men have been killed in battle, there are no men left to rule. |
That's the reason women ruled over them, but the comment presents the fact that women were ruling over the people in a negative light. It doesn't say, "The women rule over them--yippeeee."
I know that whole topic is considered to be politically incorrect, but it is in scripture. Allowing genocide in certain cases and regulating slavery are unpopular and considered to be politically incorrect, too, but God gave commandments about such things in scripture.
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
8/17/12 6:14 pm
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| Bonnie, oh, no you don't--ha! |
Aaron Scott |
You don't get to act like Athaliah proves your point. She doesn't (and, of course, I'm sure you know that). I mean, she DID murder all the other ascendants to the thrown (save the one that got away). I do not discount that she was leader for a period. I DO discount that she was for a single moment LEGITIMATE.
The PLAN does not appear to have ever been for a woman in leadership. So when we say that monarchs and priests are males, I do indeed need to clarify and note that they were the only LEGITIMATE holders of such offices.
You could say that Athaliah USURPED authority. But the authority was given to the males in the kingly line.
In any case, my apologies for not being clear. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
8/17/12 6:20 pm
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