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My issue with the Bishop/age situation
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Post My issue with the Bishop/age situation KevinWallace
I will say this and move one from...

Clearly I completely disagree with the way it turned out. But I can and willingly submit to the will of the body. My issue is the way that we act after we voted it down. To jump, clap and shout after we successfully send a message to our sons that we don't want them on the floor is unbelievable. This kind of thing hurts. I have been engaged in damage control since it happened. We need to continue to encourage these young brothers to make a difference in the world.

Furthermore, I am quite excited that we are having a study on the nomenclature of our movement. How a man pastoring 20 people 14 of which are his relatives, can mandate men call him Bishop is laughable. I am in no way demeaning pastors of small churches... they are my heroes. But there is such an unhealthy addiction to titles and positions at times.

I had a man who voted for me to be on the C-18 and then asked me how old I was after the fact. When I told him I was 32, he said he would have taken his vote back. He was not kidding. It was one of those weird moments. But oh well. Let's continue to encourage young brothers to come on strong.

I gave my reason(s) for why I supported the motion. I had another sermonette prepared to give at the assembly but didn't make it down off the stage in time. That was probably a good thing. Enjoyed seeing everyone. Hope it's not 2 years before we do it again.

ps Buck, when you want me to show you how to have a preacher voice, give me a call.... lol

peace
kev
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7/29/12 7:15 am


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Post Re: My issue with the Bishop/age situation Travis Johnson
KevinWallace wrote:


I had a man who voted for me to be on the C-18 and then asked me how old I was after the fact. When I told him I was 32, he said he would have taken his vote back.


I almost didn't vote for you after seeing rock your bow tie. Then, I thought, "that takes guts to go out in public looking like you work for NPR." So, I voted for you anyway.
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7/29/12 8:45 am


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Post Re: My issue with the Bishop/age situation Lee Roy Brown
KevinWallace wrote:
I will say this and move one from...

Clearly I completely disagree with the way it turned out. But I can and willingly submit to the will of the body. My issue is the way that we act after we voted it down. To jump, clap and shout after we successfully send a message to our sons that we don't want them on the floor is unbelievable. This kind of thing hurts. I have been engaged in damage control since it happened. We need to continue to encourage these young brothers to make a difference in the world.

Furthermore, I am quite excited that we are having a study on the nomenclature of our movement. How a man pastoring 20 people 14 of which are his relatives, can mandate men call him Bishop is laughable. I am in no way demeaning pastors of small churches... they are my heroes. But there is such an unhealthy addiction to titles and positions at times.

I had a man who voted for me to be on the C-18 and then asked me how old I was after the fact. When I told him I was 32, he said he would have taken his vote back. He was not kidding. It was one of those weird moments. But oh well. let's continue to encourage young brothers to come on strong.

I gave my reason(s) for why I supported the motion. I had another sermonette prepared to give at the assembly but didn't make it down off the stage in time. That was probably a good thing. Enjoyed seeing everyone. Hope its not 2 years before we do it again.

ps Buck, when you want me to show you how to have a preacher voice, give me a call.... lol

peace
kev


I think your reading to much into things. Applause is just something that naturally comes out when your point of view wins. I am a loud person, I preach that way and yell at football games if that is your make up your more likely to clap when things go your way.
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7/29/12 2:31 pm


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Post Lee Roy... KevinWallace
I may be. In light of the young men I spoke with and communicated to this was a huge part of their pain. It is what it is: A cheer for the failing of the motion. [/img]
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Post Agree With Lee Roy Brown HighFive
If the vote had gone the other way, there would have been the same response. Just natural. Always happens. To react to something that has always been a natural response is in itself childish.
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7/29/12 3:58 pm


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Post Joshua Henson
Kevin,

I'm with you man! I thought some of the arguments against the motion were outright laughable. I thought it was very disrespectful for the way the people responded after the vote was official.

I found the whole concept of needing to have teenagers to be fairly ignorant in general. That kind of ticked me off.

Personally, I felt that some of the best speeches during the entire General Assembly was made by some of our younger ministers.

Well, whatever! Moving on.
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7/29/12 4:23 pm


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Post Re: Agree With Lee Roy Brown Travis Johnson
HighFive wrote:
If the vote had gone the other way, there would have been the same response. Just natural. Always happens. To react to something that has always been a natural response is in itself childish.


I'm sure it's some of both. People laughed at the guy from Soddy Daisy without intending to lend their voices to the belittling of the man's wife and women in general. We ought not be so easily offended. And we ought to be mindful of who our words are landing on. Ultimately, if you try to do anything, someone is going to bent out of shape.

There's definitely room for our young bucks to toughen up...and room for our to be more mindful of how we carry ourselves.
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7/29/12 4:41 pm


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Post Apples and Oranges Joshua Henson
I'm with Travis on this one.

I think it's one thing to clap for passing the Trial Boards and Child Molester motions and for resolutions on marriage

It's another thing to clap on a divisive issue that is close to the hearts of some and directly expresses what many ministers think of young ministers. Part of the problem is that by cheering and clapping, you are also giving your support for some of the arguments.

Whether or not you agree or disagree with the motion, some of the arguments against the motion were belittling and demeaning.

There is no place for that kind of conduct in a Christian organization. We can respectfully disagree while still affirming and edifying one another.
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7/29/12 5:12 pm


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Post J David Smith
I understand the point that Kevin is making, and agree that clapping and cheering was not the proper response or decorum. I also submit that the responses by several young ministers on twitter and facebook was also improper.

I was against the motion. I began pastoring at the age of 26, and became an Ordained Bishop (Ordained at the time) at the age of 30. I have a history that reveals my passion at mentoring, affirming and releasing young ministers. My vote against this motion is because I believe that our entire usage of the term "bishop" should be reviewed. We are too loose with that term.

When the motion was overturned, my iPhone starting lighting up with young ministers tweeting rhetoric that the Church of God had just rejected young ministers. In my assessment, that response was just as inappropriate as the response of those who clapped and cheered in the General Assembly.

The motion was spun to be about age. Insinuations and outright accusations were that the failure of the motion shut out our young ministers. This is not true! It borders on dishonesty to imply that this motion was solely an age issue. It was not! It was an issue of maturity and experience. In my opinion, the responses that I saw on twitter by some younger ministers validated that the General Assembly made the right decision.

*Had I read Tom's post before I wrote this one, this post would simply say "ditto." Wink
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Post J David KevinWallace
We are great friends. I esteem you very highly. If you voted it down because we use the term Bishop loosely (which I wholeheartedly agree with) then we need to take a bunch of bishop credentials away from people who fail that test. That is my opinion...

If wisdom and experience are the criteria that these young men lack, then older brothers brothers who have less wisdom than 24 year old men need to turn in their credentials till we get the nomenclature right. Maybe none of us should be called bishop. But young men need to be able to speak into the movement just like the older fathers...in my opinion.

Finally I agree with you guys that some of the young guys over reacted in immature manners. I gently tried to rebuke and correct that in love. But I did understand their pain. It's time to move on. We need all hands on deck. Blessings.
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Last edited by KevinWallace on 7/29/12 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Re: J David J David Smith
KevinWallace wrote:
We are great friends. I esteem you very highly. If you voted it down because we use the term
Bishop loosely (which I wholeheartedly agree with) then we need to take a bunch of bishop credentials away from people who fail that test. What is comical is that no one bothered quoting or utilizing the Bible in the decision making process.
If wisdom and experience are the criteria that these young men lack, then gray headed brothers who have less wisdom than 24 year old men need to turn in their credentials till we get the nomenclature right. Maybe none of us should be called bishop. But young men need to be able to speak into the movement just like their seasoned. I do believe that there are measures in place to do this.

Finally I agree with you guys that some of the young guys over reacted in immature manners. I gently tried to rebuke and correct that in love. But I did understand their pain. It's time to move on. We need all hands on deck. Blessings.


I am responding from my phone, so my ability to fully articulate my thoughts on this are limited to my level of patience with the iPhone keyboard.

I acquiesce regarding your comments on the term "Bishop." That is not the only reason that I opposed the motion. However, I do passionately believe that we need to review our usage of the term. My reasons are communicated in Tom Sterben's post within this thread better than I could attempt to pen.

I am not opposed to releasing young men into ministry. I realize that you are aware of that. I hesitated to publicly express my opinion on this motion for the fear that I would be linked to the comments of others who spoke in opposition of the motion.

I have observed God's hand upon your life since you were a teenager. One would be in denial to not notice the unique and select favor upon your life and ministry. However, there are also young men like myself. I can only relate to my own experience. For me, it took a season of brokenness for God to really help me to decrease so that He could increase. I was filled with arrogance that was often disguised and misconceived as authority. It took a Spiritual journey for God to convert knowledge into wisdom. To be painfully honest, I believe that you are the exception and I am the rule. Maturity and wisdom come with time. It is my perspective, after 15 years of intentional and strategic mentoring of young ministers, that setting an individual forth too soon can be more detrimental than beneficial.

I attended two General Assemblies prior to becoming eligible to vote. Once I was able to participate in the General Council, I was deeply appreciative of the process. I still am. I have attended every General Council session since I became eligible to have a voice. I understand the privilege that I have been given.

You were my first vote for the council of 18. I did not give a second thought to your age, because I know you and the level of wisdom and experience that you bring to the table. Therefore, I reiterate my opinion that this is not an issue of age. It is an issue of wisdom and experience that in most individuals only comes with time. I also concur with you that there are men who presently sit in the General Council who lack wisdom. I don't know how to resolve that. I do know that I voted my convictions.

I am proud of you and the anointing that is upon your life! I attended your service this morning from my hotel room via the internet. You inspire me. As a matter of fact, I am going shopping for a bow tie as soon as I get back to Atlanta!
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7/29/12 7:07 pm


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Post Re: My issue with the Bishop/age situation Link
KevinWallace wrote:
Furthermore, I am quite excited that we are having a study on the nomenclature of our movement. How a man pastoring 20 people 14 of which are his relatives, can mandate men call him Bishop is laughable. I am in no way demeaning pastors of small churches... they are my heroes. But there is such an unhealthy addiction to titles and positions at times.


An obession with being called by titles is unhealthy. But if someone is functioning as a bishop in a church of 20 relatives, why not acknowledge him as one?

If one has to be old to be an elder of the church, why appoint young pastors then? Why have a system where 'bishop' does not mean what it means in scripture?
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7/29/12 7:39 pm


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Post J David Smith... KevinWallace
Hey bro, I will probably call you to get your insight on the nomenclature issue. It seems to me we really rethink that issue in my opinion. If it weren't for the message we sent, I would be against the motion as well. Simply because the bishop term is so misplaced as you have so eloquently said. II have the utmost respect for you and the ministry God has given you. Your recent promotion is evidence of the favor of God on your life. I know that you mentor, train release and help young men. If I seemed to say anything else I am sorry for that. You have always been pro young men. Shoot you helped. I am thankful for our connection in the kingdom.

Concerning the bow tie... pray diligently. Be secure in your masculinity. While at assembly, I felt like Paul as he withstood the beast at Ephesus...but in the end I kept the bow tie.LOL
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Post Eddie Robbins
I wore a bow tie.....in 1974. I wore one in the Vindagua picture. It was a pink one. I was very secure. Acts-pert Poster
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7/29/12 7:55 pm


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Post Eddie KevinWallace
key word = 1974.

I suppose that is why I encountered so much grief. Very Happy Shocked
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Post Buck Marshall
Kevin,

I was enjoying your original post and then have to admit I spit my milk out when I got the post script. LOL

I neither desire nor need to develop a preacher voice...but be assured that if I needed lessons...you would be the one I would call upon. Especially considering you have done so much with the one I taught you in Campus Choir. (Never did get a thank you card for that btw)

Love you bro...don't let Travis give you too much grief about the bow tie.

I mean he isn't wrong about it...but just don't let him give you too much grief.

Wink
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Post A possible solution Paul W. Nolan
Since I was working in Registration during the Assembly, I didn't get to hear all of the banter involved in the deliberations. If there is a concern about a 25 year old Ordained Bishop being eligible to serve as an Administrative Bishop or as Presiding Bishop, why not raise the age limit in the qualifications to 35 years old? We require it of the President of the United States, why not of those who would seek either of those offices? Just an idea. Carry on... Friendly Face
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7/30/12 9:17 am


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Post Re: Agree With Lee Roy Brown Clint Wills
HighFive wrote:
If the vote had gone the other way, there would have been the same response. Just natural. Always happens. To react to something that has always been a natural response is in itself childish.


Apples and oranges man. It's one thing to cheer that more people are being included - it's another thing completely to cheer that people are being excluded.

Personally, I don't think that this motion passing or failing has a whole lot of bearing on the denomination. I wanted it to pass, and still wish it would have, but if that motion not passing is what brings the COG down I'd be shocked. If young ministers (and I'm fairly young) get so bent out of shape about this that they leave the denomination, then maybe that proves the point of the opposition.
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7/30/12 9:31 am


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Post Re: Agree With Lee Roy Brown Lee Roy Brown
Clint Wills wrote:
HighFive wrote:
If the vote had gone the other way, there would have been the same response. Just natural. Always happens. To react to something that has always been a natural response is in itself childish.


Apples and oranges man. It's one thing to cheer that more people are being included - it's another thing completely to cheer that people are being excluded.

Personally, I don't think that this motion passing or failing has a whole lot of bearing on the denomination. I wanted it to pass, and still wish it would have, but if that motion not passing is what brings the COG down I'd be shocked. If young ministers (and I'm fairly young) get so bent out of shape about this that they leave the denomination, then maybe that proves the point of the opposition.


Being excluded? Someone is being excluded? I guess young men can’t pastor now? They can’t serve as Evangelist? They can’t be ordained ministers? I just see all the young people being excluded. No what we did was say that if you are going to be at the highest level in our church just wait a little bit. Experience produces wisdom and wisdom will bring a defining definition to issues that youth might not be able to bring.

I am a young man at 33 years old. I became Bishop at 25 years old because I started my ministerial journey very young. I started pastoring at 22 years old. I can however tell you that those extra three years of developing made a world of difference for me. I needed those. It also allowed me to know exactly what I needed to do and gave me guidelines on how to proceed within the Church of God. I liked knowing those guidelines and knowing what was next.

Shape up young men in three years you might realize why I voted against it. BTW I didn’t applaud but can understand why some people did as mentioned above. The funny thing is a lot of young men were voting against this motion also. I should know I was setting with a few of them.
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7/30/12 9:51 am


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Post Lee Roy KevinWallace
I like to agree with people. Many times I have agreed with you. But this last post reeks. "Shape up young men?" Are you serious? I have a feeling they dont care why you voted against it. The fact is, we can talk about all of the psychological and sociological reasons why we shouldn't have voted for this, but we can't talk about the scriptural reasons why we shouldn't have voted for this...because there aren't any.

There are 24 year old men who are more qualified than some 50 year olds. Obviously that is not the norm. But when you make hard and fast rules that exclude sons who have wisdom beyond their years and abilities that are God-given, we keep them out of the decision making processes of our church. We will regret this one day if the Lord tarries.
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