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Nature Boy Florida

Affiliate Churches the bigger issue on the agenda

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16619 **6/24/12 5:36 pm**

You guys have been duped.

The affiliate church issue (again) is the bigger issue.

Once allowed, current churches will demand they be given their deeds, as well - and how could you stop them. Some churches will be more equal than others - some allowed to have deeds - some not. Lawsuits will be flying all over the place to demand equal treatment.

Churches that don't owe money - will ask for their deeds - and then pull out at the first sign of disagreement. State overseer positions will be impotent to do anything to wayward pastors - or wayward churches for fear that they will pull out - and who will general HQ stand with - knowing they ultimately could be responsible.

This, my friends, is the ferret in the pants - sure to cause a real problem if allowed.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today!

Clyde Walker

And what would be wrong with that?

Friendly Face Posts: 117 **6/24/12 6:27 pm**

Why do we feel like we have to own our churches to keep them in the COG? The AG doesn't have to own their churches and neither does the Southern Baptists yet they lose very few congregations.

It would be a refreshing to have a denomination where all the churches are there because they love it not because their property is owned by headquarters.

Kyle Morrow

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2397 **6/24/12 7:19 pm**

I agree with Tom on this one! Yeah I said it!

There is just no way an independent church will just one day decide I think I'm going to give up 10% of my income (after the cuts are finalized) and surrender the deed to my building so I can become a part of the Church of God. We are good, but not that good!

Acts2Grind

Acts-celerater Posts: 534 **6/24/12 7:37 pm**

Mr. Florida you seem to be a little too tightly wound my friend. I spent half my ministry career in a denomination that allowed for churches to become solvent enough to request their deeds and it was granted nearly every time. In all those years I cannot remember a single incident where a church gained property deeds and then vacated the denomination.

You are sounding an alarm based NOT on fact but merely on speculation!

Embrace the notion of accepting affiliate churches and if your local church is strong enough to exist on their own without the mother office guiding them then allow them the option to operate with their deeds. If they cannot operate without assistance then build in a safeguard where the deed reverts back to HQ. My goodness you might actually experience growth for once and wouldn't that be a nice change?

Pretty simple but not scary at all.
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Cojak

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24275 **6/24/12 7:42 pm**

I think the associate church is a good idea and a step in the right direction. Not in my life time, but if the Lord tarries big changes will come about concerning deeds. NBF may have hit the nail on the head, and the waters may be rough at first, but I think it would smooth out.
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G. Scott Hager

Friendly Face Posts: 231 **6/24/12 8:19 pm**

Will the associate churches be required to give the tithe of tithe?
Also, can existing COG congregations be able to pull their deeds and become Associate churches?
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Fisher

Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2017 **6/24/12 8:25 pm**

It is really sad when the behavior of the EC always leads to trying to figure out what their up to.
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NPS39

Re: TOT

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1458 **6/24/12 8:45 pm**

Nature Boy Florida

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16619 **6/24/12 9:18 pm**

Do you believe this is a first step toward decentralization?

Is the Council trying to throw the decentralized govt. guys a bone?

I guess you guys don't get it.

The problem isn't with being HQ owning the properties - or with individual churches owning the properties. The problem is trying to do both at the same time. Not possible.

Walk on left side of the road - safe.
Walk on right side of the road - safe.

Try to walk down the middle of the road - sooner or later - SQUISH - just like grape. - Miyagi
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today!

Change Agent

Affiliate Churches

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **6/24/12 9:31 pm**

I am for affiliate churches but I do not think that this will pass at this time. OB's are concerned that this is just the first step in the fall of the political system in the COG. Next, current churches will demand their deeds back. After the deeds are given back the control of the political is no more. If you were a pastor that had depended in the political system to keep you a church those days would be over. Churches would pick their own pastors. Most COG pastors I know want to keep the known present system.

Poimen

Re: Affiliate Churches

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5657 **6/24/12 11:43 pm**

Clyde Walker

This passed the General Council Last Assembly

Friendly Face Posts: 117 **6/25/12 5:06 am**

However after an impassioned speech by Ray Hughes the measure failed in the General Assembly.

It could very well pass this time and would be a good thing especially if it leads to decentralization. A little more than 70 years of communism failed in the former Soviet Union for several reasons.

1. Too much power at the top.
2. Too little freedom of expression among the masses.
3. Incentive for excellence was destroyed among the working class.

Being taken care of from the cradle to the grave sounds good to nonproducers but it certainly doesn't produce much.

It is true that if the deeds were given back to the churches there would be a tremendous loss of power in Cleveland and State Offices. They would have to lead with the carrot method rather than the stick.

It is also true that churches would be able to hire and fire their own pastors. A whole lot of non productive pastors would lose their jobs. those pastors who keep their jobs would have a great incentive to study, pray, be nice and genuinely love their people. If that happens you would see great growth.

Travis Johnson

Re: This passed the General Council Last Assembly

Acts-dicted Posts: 7862 **6/25/12 6:29 am**

Ronald

Can A Church:

Friendly Face Posts: 405 **6/25/12 8:02 am**

pull out if their deed is now to the local Church?

Clyde Walker

No, a local church cannot take its property out of the COG.

Friendly Face Posts: 117 **6/25/12 8:41 am**

According to the Minutes of the General Assembly all local churches must use the adopted Church of God deed form and be deeded to the Church of God with headquarters in Cleveland, TN.

There is nothing you can legally do to get the property back in the name of the local church unless they want to give it back.

I have heard of local churches going through a local process to get the deed back in the name of the local church. However if that is tested in a court of law it will not hold up. They own it.

I do know of several large churches that have slipped in under the radar and purchased property without deeding it to the COG. I don't think there is much that can be done about that unless they sold property that was in the name of the COG and used that money to purchase the new property. In that case the COG would probably win it back in a court.

Virtually all the control of local churches and pastors stems from the fact that the COG owns the property. That is a double edged sword however.

Since all local churches are owned by the COG, the COG is ultimately responsible for the mortgages and any claims in a law suit regarding what happens on that property.

If someone is injured in a fall on that property, or if a child or an adult is molested on that property, the COG is responsible in a lawsuit. When the suit is filed, it is filed against the local church, the state office and general offices. Hundreds of thousands of dollars have been paid in the past to settle such lawsuits.

Eddie Robbins

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **6/25/12 8:51 am**

Not to get off track, but a group can own a building and rent it to a church just like Travis rented a theater. What keeps that from happening?

What would happen if a church asked for the deed. The COG refused to give them the deed. Then, the church abandoned the property and rented a place owned by a group of members? What stops that?

It is logical to think that if a group went that far, they wouldn't stay in the COG, but just for the sake of argument, I am asking.

Ronald

I Asked:

Friendly Face Posts: 405 **6/25/12 9:08 am**

What if it has "never" been deeded to GH. It has always been deeded to the local. What @ that?

Rayford Harrison

Nothing legally stops a church from buying/renting property.

New Member Posts: 18 **6/25/12 9:31 am**

Ronald

Could Someone Please:

Friendly Face Posts: 405 **6/25/12 9:40 am**

answer my question.

Rayford Harrison

What if it has never been deeded to the COG?

New Member Posts: 18 **6/25/12 10:07 am**

Then it doesn't belong to the Church of God. There have been many examples.

There was a very solid Church of God in Fairborn, Ohio. If I remember correctly they had an average attendance of several hundred. The founding pastor of that church became upset at General Headquarters and announced he was taking the church independent. When the legal department of the COG tried to claim the property they discovered that the pastor and his wife had bought the property initially and it was never transferred to the COG. It still belongs to them.

There was a church in the south of Houston, TX. Their church grew into a very large congregation and they asked permission to build a new church but were turned down by their AB. The pastor bought the property next door to the church in his own name and built the new church. When he retired he sold the church to an independent pastor. The old pastor retired well in Florida.

There was a church in Savannah, GA that was founded by a Church of God pastor who moved there from Danville, VA. Although the new church was Church of God the pastor purchased the property in his own name. He later had his credentials revoked for failing to report and there was nothing the COG could do about the property. It still belongs to the pastor who purchased it.

I am confident there are many congregations that have never deeded their property to the COG. Headquarters has made the decision to let a sleeping dog lie.