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roughridercog

What EXACTLY does God's Word say about drinking?

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **5/30/12 12:59 pm**

Let's pretend for a second that the Minutes don't exist and we have to make a decision based on nothing but the Bible.

What does the Bible say about drinking?

Does it teach abstinence or moderation?
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation

roughridercog

Hmmm, so we're silent?

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **5/30/12 1:13 pm**

No one wants to talk Scripture?
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation

Curtis Lowe II

Now Rough...

Acts-celerater Posts: 902 **5/30/12 1:15 pm**

we don't want to cloud the issue by bring in the scriptures. Embarassed

All joking aside I do want to say that I admire your spirit and willingness in this whole discussion to let the Bible be our ultimate guide in spite of what I know are your personal preferences and conviction. I always enjoy your posts. God bless.
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roughridercog

We Pentecostals can be as bad...

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **5/30/12 1:18 pm**

as the Roman Catholic church when it comes to equating church tradition with Scripture.
We can talk our personal convictions, but we waffle when we have to back up tradition with Scripture.
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation

Link

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **5/30/12 1:45 pm**

On the subject of tithing.

Deuteronomy 14:26
And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
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Clint Wills

I do think...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5161 **5/30/12 1:50 pm**

That it's not completely inappropriate to use common sense along with the Bible. The Bible does not say that drinking is sin.

However, it does say that being drunk is sin and that being bound by anything isn't God's plan for our lives (and walking outside of God's plan is sin - right?). I have a friend who didn't ever get drunk, but HAD to have his wine EVERY SINGLE NIGHT. To me, whether or not he drank very much wasn't the issue. The issue was that he felt that he needed the wine daily.

The other thing I've noticed - in my view at least - is that people that drink are far more likely to get angry and offended at people who are anti-drinking than the other way around. My parents take the stand that drinking is not a sin, but based on their experience there isn't really a need for it either. The VAST majority of couples they have counseled hold alcohol in high regard in their home. Not drunkards, but socially and just as a centerpiece of who they are. That still doesn't make drinking sin, but if one spouse is against it and the other isn't it can cause a rift.

Finally, something I've seen is that Christians who drink wear it as a badge. "Hello...I'm John Doe, and I'm a Christian drinker - I'm free from not drinking because I'm a strong Christian" blah, blah, blah. Even my best friend falls into this catagory to some extent.

He said to me once, "I don't agree with your dad's stand on alcohol."

My reply was, "how so?".

"He is against any drinking."

"Privately, yes he probably is, but he has never told you that it's sin"

"No...he hasn't"

"Then you disagree with what you THINK he holds as a personal conviction"

"Yeah - I suppose that's about right"

He was so wrapped up in being upset that he perceived someone was against drinking that he didn't even bother to look at what he knew. HE was looking for an argument about drinking.

Clint Wills

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5161 **5/30/12 1:53 pm**

Telecaster

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1882 **5/30/12 2:08 pm**

By my best understanding and knowledge, it says the drinker can be a fool, but it never says not to drink. It simply says don't get drunk.

I've found a sure fire way to never get drunk though. It's simply not to drink at all.

When it comes to drinking and so forth, I'm a lot more concerned with the application of Romans 10 than I am a specific scripture to tell whether or not I can drink.

roughridercog

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **5/30/12 5:24 pm**

Dean Steenburgh

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4682 **5/30/12 9:56 pm**

Abstinence is the only answer to a lot of things where when it is applied it works 100% of the time!

Consumption discussion/debate sounds like an argument that says, "well, if you're gonna do it just make sure you do it with careful moderation." The problem is for far too many people we never know what the definition of moderation is. One guy says he can drink a beer & feel a light buzz while another guy says he can drink a 6 pack & barely feel a thing. The temptation is there (or built in by testosterone) to try to increase our consumption stamina & always be the guy who can withstand the highest levels of consumption w/out ever being influenced by it's negative reactions.

By agreeing to drink alcohol we have bought in to the lie that we have the ability to keep a leash on the inner monster ...yeah right!

We think we have biblical permission to drink alcoholic beverages even though we can see the results of it's dangers all the time. Hard to get hurt in the O.T. when you might be riding a donkey or a camel. How many times do you put your hands inside the cage of the grizzly bear knowing that you can pull your hands out at any moment until one day you're caught off guard & he's got you? The enemy has taken alcohol & used it as a means to lure people away from reality (getting a light buzz) & tries to get them to lower their guard until he's got you. Why even play with the nasty fire to begin with?? Why do we look for ways to skirt the laws of common sense & look for loop hole answers/responses to doing things we know we would never do if we were surrounded by our peers or those we are providing insight towards?

I guess if you use the 'moderation & lite consumption' argument, then we can justify smoking a little dope, teens or singles can play around a little bit but don't go all the way, a little taste of porn, couple of puffs on that pipe, spend some time in the casinos or horse races & the list can go on & on ...as long as we do it in moderation of course & keep the consumption levels low.

I mean the bible doesn't forbid these things so it must be OK to toy with them just a little bit as long as we don't go over the edge or get caught, which ever comes first. Rolling Eyes

At the end of the debate we're still supposed to be setting an example of holiness & thoughtfulness which is pretty hard to do while you're on top of the table at Outback with a lamp shade over your head belting out Sweet Home Alabama.

Come on guys, stop looking for the easy way out & man up to the notion that it takes more to say 'no' to various vices (even though permissible) than it does to enjoy lite consumption. We are on a slippery slope here & there will be some who are watching your example to make sure you don't cause them to stumble by your lack of fortitude.

.
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peterz3fo

Friendly Face Posts: 395 **5/31/12 10:11 am**

bradfreeman

Re: What EXACTLY does God's Word say about drinking?

Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 **5/31/12 10:58 am**

doyle

Choke

Acts-celerate Owner Posts: 6957 **5/31/12 11:39 am**

As much as it chokes me to say it since I have been and still am rather 'old school; when it comes to the topic of drinking, the Scripture does not attempt to enforce abstinence.

For many years, I believe Jesus made a new wine, something like grape juice, when he turned the water into (grape juice) wine. Not completely sure but when the measurements from that parable are added up, I was told it comes to about 180 gallons. If that's true, that was some massive wedding.

Proverbs 20:1 says that he who is "deceived" by wine is "Not wise." But it doesn't say they will go to Hell for it.

Apostle Paul advised taking "a little" wine for the stomach's sake.

Deacon's wives in the New Testament were advised "Not to be given to much wine," which seems to indicate a little wine was accepted.

How much is a "little" probably has been debated for centuries.

I totally agree that the less complicated stance is simply to declare abstinence as a denominational policy. I'm glad our church does take a stand against drinking. It's certainly more comfortable for me, however, Scripture does not always fit our desire for comfort or simplicity.

Doyle
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Tracy S Hamilton

The Short answer

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Posts: 2714 **5/31/12 12:32 pm**

The simple and short answer is that the Bible teaches moderation. It is just that plain and simple. And therefore, I don't preach against something that the Bible doesn't forbid.

But I also maintain that the absolute best way to never be ensnared by it is to never start.

Same could be said for fried chicken as well. Or candy bars, soft drinks, sweet tea, etc.

Cojak

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **5/31/12 11:20 pm**

I would love to see teachings on moderation. Not for 'ENFORCEMENT' purposes but for common sense guide lines for our members. My dad said chewing and dipping was under the command about the filthiness of the flesh. LOL.
Tobacco is the nations top cause of death. It may not be scripturally wrong, but it is logically wrong. I will be the first to say, it is near impossible to smoke 3 cigarettes a day. That is moderation and smokers will tell you they would love to ENJOY 3 a day, one after each meal. But that is NEAR IMPOSSIBLE. so abstinence is logical.

The next national killer is Obesity at from 120K to 300K a year deaths. Moderation is logically called for.

The next Killer is Alcohol at about 75K a year, not close to the above mentioned killers. But moderation would be good to teach.

Fire arms account for 27K deaths a year. Of course we cannot teach on that since fire arms aren't in the Scriptures. Probably moderation in trips to the woods and range.

Whoa, approved drugs by prescription kills about 83K a year We definitely need moderation here.

Illegal drugs account for 17K a year, maybe moderation would be good.

Now for visits to the Emergency room? the best figures i can find are above obesity and alcohol, maybe abstinence would be good here. LOL

Now about Caffeine, I could find no death related to it however Coffee enema's have caused death. Definitely we should have total abstinence here.
But for caffeine by mouth i.e. coffee, tea I believe moderation should be recommended.

I am on the moderation teachings, for guidelines only, not discipline!.

But then that is me, liberal but conservative.
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chainrattler

Acts-celerater Posts: 975 **6/1/12 5:58 am**

The fruit of the Spirit is self-control, and we are called to live by the Spirit and walk in the Spirit.

No matter what the topic (alcohol, food, sex, etc.) we are called to exhibit the fruit of self-control.

Sometimes self-control will require total abstinence for us, in one or more areas and sometimes love (another attribute of the fruit of the Spirit) will require us not to exercise our liberty (or boast about it) before other believers with a weak conscience regarding that thing, lest we tempt them to violate their own conscience and do something not in faith (which is sin).

Not being a "stumblingblock" to others was never meant to give other people control over our lives (which is how it is practically practiced in many cases by those who love to exercise control over others and slander and gossip about them if they can't).

muricewatsonsfriend

the narrow scope of this discussion

Acts-celerater Posts: 733 **6/1/12 6:30 am**

the narrow scope of this discussion is, imho, part of the challenge. if we are only allowed to reference scriptures specifically related to whatever the topic is, then by default there is no biblical argument to discuss anything that happened in the world after the close of the canon.

however, biblical principles are imported - and that pertains to every discussion. like the earlier poster said, common sense does not have to be set aside.

- mutual submission one to another; this is one of the NT principles we are to adhere to. mc donald's tells their employees, "here is a uniform and the dress code." this is their company policy, and they have a reason to do what they do; sell hamburgers. in the church, we submit one to another out of love for one another and the fear of the Lord.
I don't have any rights or claims.
- it is perceived in our country that drinking is wrong. that's why people get pulled over - not for being overweight, drinking coffee, etc etc. Paul teaches that we are to have a good reputation with the outside world. it is fair to say that the overwhelming majority of Americans - Christian or not - see the consumption of alcohol as something that is wrong - or else there wouldn't be a drinking age
- what about the principle of human responsibilty? beer is consumed in the US second only to water. at the same time, people starve to death by the thousands. how about feeding the world bread instead of drinking beer?
- finally, there is no way that any of us can prove that everyone in the bible drank intoxicating beverages. there isn't a bible word for grape juice. however, several times (once is good enough) we are admonished to stay away from intoxicants - more often than the so-called "command" to drink scriptures.
Legalism is a door that swings both ways. We should be careful to avoid either side of it.
- Darius

Eddie Robbins

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **6/1/12 6:42 am**

peterz3fo

Friendly Face Posts: 395 **6/1/12 8:05 am**

Clint Wills

Why is it...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5161 **6/1/12 11:21 am**

That we take the absence of absolutes in the Bible as permission to do whatever we want?

I'm not making this statement solely about drinking, but about anything that the Bible isn't specifically clear about. We take silence from the Bible and make it say, "get crazy". If the Bible didn't say "don't get drunk", then there are those that would get wasted every weekend in spite of what it does to their mind and body. We look at the Bible as a line to not be crossed rather than a way of life. I know as a teenager that was EXACTLY the way I saw it when it came to girls. It says not to fornicate - I could make that mean that I could do anything EXCEPT intercourse. The problem with that line of thinking was that tip-toeing the line is harder than walking a tight-rope. Sooner or later you're going to cross it. What if I am drinking a beer and decide to have a second one. However, somewhere between the end of #1 and the end of #2 I feel a buzz. Have I sinned? Don't we only know what moderation is once we found out where it ends? I look at my weight as an example...I was never overweight until I was. I wasn't "in shape", but I was thin and looked more fit than I was. Nobody would call my eating habits "sin" because I was thin. However, I found out where my tipping point was when I stepped on a scale and saw how much weight I'd gained. I wasn't TRYING to gain weight, but I wasn't trying NOT to either.

I think of it similarly with drinking - I don't know how much I can have and still be moderate until I know how much it takes to cross beyond moderation. I'm not TRYING to get drunk, but I'm not trying not to either.