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Pastor's who teach the principle of the tithe
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Post Travis Johnson
chainrattler wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:

No one said anything about standard of living.


That is exactly the impact of your response to the statement:

Quote:
For years pastors visited the sick and shut in without the benefit of it being a full time job. When I was growing up there weren't any full time salaried pastors and yet they got the job done.

You should do that as a life plan. Your kids and wife will love you for it.


Being bivocational does impact your standard of living.


No. I had zero content addressing standard of living. In fact, when I was bivocational, my compensation was substantially higher than what it is in full-time ministry. But, my time was extremely limited. The model suggested as a life plan is unsustainable if you're going to honor your wife and children.
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3/5/12 11:16 pm


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Post Re: Pastor's who teach the principle of the tithe bradfreeman
Tracy S Hamilton wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Tracy S Hamilton wrote:
Jack Hayford
Robert Morris
Brady Boyd
Stovall Weems
Joel Osteen
Craig Groeschel
Andy Stanley - the blessing of being a percentage giver (tither)
Loran Livingston
Jentezen Franklin
Ed Young Sr.
Ed Young Jr.
Charles Blake
Bob Coy
Kerry Shook
Dave Stone
T.D. Jakes
Joe Champion
Creflo Dollar
Chuck Smith
Greg Surratt
Tommy Barnett
Jimmy Evans

The list could go on and on and on...... I think all of these men are pretty sound doctrinally and all teach on tithing. Surely that can't all be wrong or maybe they just haven't read Actscelerate.


Others who do not teach the principle of the tithe:

Paul
Peter
James
John
Barnabas
The Holy Ghost - Acts 15:28,29

The list could go on and on and on...... I think all of these are pretty sound doctrinally and none teach on NT tithing. Surely they can't all be wrong or maybe they just haven't read Actscelerate. Wink



Opinion..... plain and simple..... we all know that you have one as do others. I don't think they had to preach something that was apparently the norm. Jesus said .... "this you ought to do." That seems like enough for me. I don't think the disciples would contradict Jesus.


It's not my opinion that Paul, Peter, James and John said nothing about a tithing requirement for NT believers.

It's also not my opinion that, in Matthew 23, Jesus was telling OT law-keepers that it was hypocritical of them to tithe on their spices and ignore much more important matters. He was not laying out a principle for NT believers anymore than He was in Matthew 23:1,2 when he told OT Jews they should do everything the leaders who "sit in the seat of Moses" tell them to. This command was also for OT Jews, not NT believers. The fact is, He was talking to OT Jews, living under the OT Law. I'm not reading anything into Matthew 23...just taking it at face value.

It is your opinion that Jesus commanded that we currently have to obey Jewish leaders who sit in the seat of Moses.

It's also not my opinion that Paul warned that keeping the Law in an attempt to get a blessing from God would bring a curse unless you keep the whole law. Gal. 3.
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Acts-dicted
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3/6/12 12:26 am


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Post Re: Pastor's who teach the principle of the tithe Tracy S Hamilton
bradfreeman wrote:
Tracy S Hamilton wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Tracy S Hamilton wrote:
Jack Hayford
Robert Morris
Brady Boyd
Stovall Weems
Joel Osteen
Craig Groeschel
Andy Stanley - the blessing of being a percentage giver (tither)
Loran Livingston
Jentezen Franklin
Ed Young Sr.
Ed Young Jr.
Charles Blake
Bob Coy
Kerry Shook
Dave Stone
T.D. Jakes
Joe Champion
Creflo Dollar
Chuck Smith
Greg Surratt
Tommy Barnett
Jimmy Evans

The list could go on and on and on...... I think all of these men are pretty sound doctrinally and all teach on tithing. Surely that can't all be wrong or maybe they just haven't read Actscelerate.


Others who do not teach the principle of the tithe:

Paul
Peter
James
John
Barnabas
The Holy Ghost - Acts 15:28,29

The list could go on and on and on...... I think all of these are pretty sound doctrinally and none teach on NT tithing. Surely they can't all be wrong or maybe they just haven't read Actscelerate. Wink



Opinion..... plain and simple..... we all know that you have one as do others. I don't think they had to preach something that was apparently the norm. Jesus said .... "this you ought to do." That seems like enough for me. I don't think the disciples would contradict Jesus.


It's not my opinion that Paul, Peter, James and John said nothing about a tithing requirement for NT believers.

It's also not my opinion that, in Matthew 23, Jesus was telling OT law-keepers that it was hypocritical of them to tithe on their spices and ignore much more important matters. He was not laying out a principle for NT believers anymore than He was in Matthew 23:1,2 when he told OT Jews they should do everything the leaders who "sit in the seat of Moses" tell them to. This command was also for OT Jews, not NT believers. The fact is, He was talking to OT Jews, living under the OT Law. I'm not reading anything into Matthew 23...just taking it at face value.

It is your opinion that Jesus commanded that we currently have to obey Jewish leaders who sit in the seat of Moses.

It's also not my opinion that Paul warned that keeping the Law in an attempt to get a blessing from God would bring a curse unless you keep the whole law. Gal. 3.



Funny how God addressed the issue about returning to him..... it was about tithing and giving.... and then God himself said..... "I don't change."

And then people argue that apparently God changed or at least changed his mind. I guess God just mis-understood himself.
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3/6/12 11:46 am


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Post Re: Pastor's who teach the principle of the tithe Resident Skeptic
Tracy S Hamilton wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Tracy S Hamilton wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Tracy S Hamilton wrote:
Jack Hayford
Robert Morris
Brady Boyd
Stovall Weems
Joel Osteen
Craig Groeschel
Andy Stanley - the blessing of being a percentage giver (tither)
Loran Livingston
Jentezen Franklin
Ed Young Sr.
Ed Young Jr.
Charles Blake
Bob Coy
Kerry Shook
Dave Stone
T.D. Jakes
Joe Champion
Creflo Dollar
Chuck Smith
Greg Surratt
Tommy Barnett
Jimmy Evans

The list could go on and on and on...... I think all of these men are pretty sound doctrinally and all teach on tithing. Surely that can't all be wrong or maybe they just haven't read Actscelerate.


Others who do not teach the principle of the tithe:

Paul
Peter
James
John
Barnabas
The Holy Ghost - Acts 15:28,29

The list could go on and on and on...... I think all of these are pretty sound doctrinally and none teach on NT tithing. Surely they can't all be wrong or maybe they just haven't read Actscelerate. Wink



Opinion..... plain and simple..... we all know that you have one as do others. I don't think they had to preach something that was apparently the norm. Jesus said .... "this you ought to do." That seems like enough for me. I don't think the disciples would contradict Jesus.


It's not my opinion that Paul, Peter, James and John said nothing about a tithing requirement for NT believers.

It's also not my opinion that, in Matthew 23, Jesus was telling OT law-keepers that it was hypocritical of them to tithe on their spices and ignore much more important matters. He was not laying out a principle for NT believers anymore than He was in Matthew 23:1,2 when he told OT Jews they should do everything the leaders who "sit in the seat of Moses" tell them to. This command was also for OT Jews, not NT believers. The fact is, He was talking to OT Jews, living under the OT Law. I'm not reading anything into Matthew 23...just taking it at face value.

It is your opinion that Jesus commanded that we currently have to obey Jewish leaders who sit in the seat of Moses.

It's also not my opinion that Paul warned that keeping the Law in an attempt to get a blessing from God would bring a curse unless you keep the whole law. Gal. 3.



Funny how God addressed the issue about returning to him..... it was about tithing and giving.... and then God himself said..... "I don't change."

And then people argue that apparently God changed or at least changed his mind. I guess God just mis-understood himself.


Funny how you think that if you keep repeating your hermeneutically flawed interpretation of that passage that it's true meaning will somehow change into what you want it to mean.
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3/6/12 12:04 pm


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Post Oh fer crying out loud... roughridercog
If you wanna preach and believe tithing (I do), then do so. If you don't, then don't. That's pretty simple.
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Post Re: Oh fer crying out loud... krista
roughridercog wrote:
If you wanna preach and believe tithing (I do), then do so. If you don't, then don't. That's pretty simple.


delete


Last edited by krista on 3/9/12 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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3/6/12 2:57 pm


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Post Re: Pastor's who teach the principle of the tithe Tracy S Hamilton
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Tracy S Hamilton wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Tracy S Hamilton wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Tracy S Hamilton wrote:
Jack Hayford
Robert Morris
Brady Boyd
Stovall Weems
Joel Osteen
Craig Groeschel
Andy Stanley - the blessing of being a percentage giver (tither)
Loran Livingston
Jentezen Franklin
Ed Young Sr.
Ed Young Jr.
Charles Blake
Bob Coy
Kerry Shook
Dave Stone
T.D. Jakes
Joe Champion
Creflo Dollar
Chuck Smith
Greg Surratt
Tommy Barnett
Jimmy Evans

The list could go on and on and on...... I think all of these men are pretty sound doctrinally and all teach on tithing. Surely that can't all be wrong or maybe they just haven't read Actscelerate.


Others who do not teach the principle of the tithe:

Paul
Peter
James
John
Barnabas
The Holy Ghost - Acts 15:28,29

The list could go on and on and on...... I think all of these are pretty sound doctrinally and none teach on NT tithing. Surely they can't all be wrong or maybe they just haven't read Actscelerate. Wink



Opinion..... plain and simple..... we all know that you have one as do others. I don't think they had to preach something that was apparently the norm. Jesus said .... "this you ought to do." That seems like enough for me. I don't think the disciples would contradict Jesus.


It's not my opinion that Paul, Peter, James and John said nothing about a tithing requirement for NT believers.

It's also not my opinion that, in Matthew 23, Jesus was telling OT law-keepers that it was hypocritical of them to tithe on their spices and ignore much more important matters. He was not laying out a principle for NT believers anymore than He was in Matthew 23:1,2 when he told OT Jews they should do everything the leaders who "sit in the seat of Moses" tell them to. This command was also for OT Jews, not NT believers. The fact is, He was talking to OT Jews, living under the OT Law. I'm not reading anything into Matthew 23...just taking it at face value.

It is your opinion that Jesus commanded that we currently have to obey Jewish leaders who sit in the seat of Moses.

It's also not my opinion that Paul warned that keeping the Law in an attempt to get a blessing from God would bring a curse unless you keep the whole law. Gal. 3.



Funny how God addressed the issue about returning to him..... it was about tithing and giving.... and then God himself said..... "I don't change."

And then people argue that apparently God changed or at least changed his mind. I guess God just mis-understood himself.


Funny how you think that if you keep repeating your hermeneutically flawed interpretation of that passage that it's true meaning will somehow change into what you want it to mean.


OK.... Resident.... I think we all know now that you are fascinated with the world hermeneutics..... lol We are all glad you can say and spell it.

There are different ways of dealing with hermeneutics..... it doesn't have to be the way that you see it..... lol
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3/6/12 3:33 pm


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Post krista
delete

Last edited by krista on 3/9/12 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post krista
Major B. Trammell wrote:
krista wrote:

Jesus had a perfect opportunity to teach that one need to not tithe any longer when he scolded the Pharisees. But He didn't. He said" to not leave the other undone".


Krista, Jesus did not have the perfect opportunity to teach that one need not tithe when He scolded the Pharisees. At the time He spoke to the Pharisees in Matthew 23, the Law was still in effect.

Jesus stated that He did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill the Law and that not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law.... until all be fulfilled.

All was not fulfilled until His atonement on the cross.

If He had told those currently under the Law before his atonement that they need not tithe, He would have been doing away with the Law before it was fulfilled.

He told the Pharisees in Matthew 23 that they should not neglect the other matters of the Law. They were being hypocrites. They were practicing parts of the Law that could be observed in public (tithing) but were not following the Law when they weren't in plain sight of people (neglecting justice). They were putting on a show to make people believe they were righteous when they were not.

His statement was to a group of people who were at the time under the Law and the Law would remain until His atonement.

As for the 10%, 10% is a percentage. Of course, it is also a proportion as well. 10 is 10% of 100 just like 20 is 10% of 200. They are the same percentage, and each is the same proportion.

The difference is that a tithe is defined as 10%. That is set in stone. Under the New Covenant giving, Paul instructs each man to give "as he has purposed in his heart." So, under the New Covenant giving, one man's proportion may be bigger than another's or smaller than another's depending on what proportion he has decided to give in his heart, individually and in obedience to God. That proportion is not necessarily the same for each person, since each "purposes" in his own heart what to give.


delete


Last edited by krista on 3/9/12 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post chainrattler
Travis Johnson wrote:
chainrattler wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:

No one said anything about standard of living.


That is exactly the impact of your response to the statement:

Quote:
For years pastors visited the sick and shut in without the benefit of it being a full time job. When I was growing up there weren't any full time salaried pastors and yet they got the job done.

You should do that as a life plan. Your kids and wife will love you for it.


Being bivocational does impact your standard of living.


No. I had zero content addressing standard of living. In fact, when I was bivocational, my compensation was substantially higher than what it is in full-time ministry. But, my time was extremely limited. The model suggested as a life plan is unsustainable if you're going to honor your wife and children.


Standard of living is not limited to finances, as you pointed out just now. Time constraints count too.
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3/6/12 7:47 pm


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Post krista
krista wrote:
Major B. Trammell wrote:
krista wrote:

Jesus had a perfect opportunity to teach that one need to not tithe any longer when he scolded the Pharisees. But He didn't. He said" to not leave the other undone".


Krista, Jesus did not have the perfect opportunity to teach that one need not tithe when He scolded the Pharisees. At the time He spoke to the Pharisees in Matthew 23, the Law was still in effect.

Jesus stated that He did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill the Law and that not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law.... until all be fulfilled.

All was not fulfilled until His atonement on the cross.

If He had told those currently under the Law before his atonement that they need not tithe, He would have been doing away with the Law before it was fulfilled.

He told the Pharisees in Matthew 23 that they should not neglect the other matters of the Law. They were being hypocrites. They were practicing parts of the Law that could be observed in public (tithing) but were not following the Law when they weren't in plain sight of people (neglecting justice). They were putting on a show to make people believe they were righteous when they were not.

His statement was to a group of people who were at the time under the Law and the Law would remain until His atonement.

As for the 10%, 10% is a percentage. Of course, it is also a proportion as well. 10 is 10% of 100 just like 20 is 10% of 200. They are the same percentage, and each is the same proportion.

The difference is that a tithe is defined as 10%. That is set in stone. Under the New Covenant giving, Paul instructs each man to give "as he has purposed in his heart." So, under the New Covenant giving, one man's proportion may be bigger than another's or smaller than another's depending on what proportion he has decided to give in his heart, individually and in obedience to God. That proportion is not necessarily the same for each person, since each "purposes" in his own heart what to give.


Major, Then let's stop calling it tithes and stop paying the TOT. Just count it as offering. Or maybe you already do. Laughing
If while Christ was alive the Law was totally still in tact, then how could Christ forgive sin? Wouldn't sin have been dealt with through animal sacrifice since the Law was still in effect? Wouldn't it have been out of order for Christ to forgive, since the system at hand was the Law? If His atonement ( Death) was the definite line that made the distinction of Law vs Grace, why would He forgive instead of directing one to offer up a sacrifice?
Also in 2 Corinthians 9, it is an offering being taken for the Church at Jerusalem and their needs. He was encouraging the Corinthians to purpose in their heart the gift they were going to give. To me, this was separated from the tithe. Like when we recieve a special offering at Church and people have to decide what to give. This was concerning a special offering, and not doctrine on weekly giving.
So we go back to proportion. The proportion I believe was the Tithe, because it was in proportion to what one had.


delete


Last edited by krista on 3/9/12 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Resident Skeptic
Quote:
It's based proportionately, which would point us to the Tithe. The Tithe is exactly that.


And yet you have nothing you can use in context that points you to a tithe.
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3/6/12 9:27 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
chainrattler wrote:
Standard of living is not limited to finances, as you pointed out just now. Time constraints count too.


Definition of STANDARD OF LIVING (Merriam Webster)

1: the necessities, comforts, and luxuries enjoyed or aspired to by an individual or group
2: a minimum of necessities, comforts, or luxuries held essential to maintaining a person or group in customary or proper status or circumstances

When it comes to working bivocationally in a way that you are full-time outside of the church and completely available in the evenings to visit (as you suggested is an appropriate way of ministry life), is an unacceptable plan for ministry and family health for me...and I'd advise against it for others as well.

I'm not saying bivocational ministry is unacceptable. It's actually good and beautiful. But, this model of a professional pastor who is underpaid while maintaining all of the responsibilities of a professional do-er is devastating for family health...and it avoids the calling of a pastor to equip saints for works of service.

If I had to choose between pastoral ministry and a healthy, functional life with my family, I'd choose my family in a heartbeat. My wife and my children are only second to myself in terms of ministry responsibility. I treasure them...and would rather they know the grace of Jesus than anyone else on the planet. I wouldn't trade their destinies for the care of strangers who will never realize the extent of the sacrifice made for their occasional care.

And, I won't have them hating Jesus because of the way I stewarded my time.
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3/6/12 9:34 pm


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Post AMEN skinnybishop
Travis Johnson wrote:
chainrattler wrote:
Standard of living is not limited to finances, as you pointed out just now. Time constraints count too.


Definition of STANDARD OF LIVING (Merriam Webster)

1: the necessities, comforts, and luxuries enjoyed or aspired to by an individual or group
2: a minimum of necessities, comforts, or luxuries held essential to maintaining a person or group in customary or proper status or circumstances

When it comes to working bivocationally in a way that you are full-time outside of the church and completely available in the evenings to visit (as you suggested is an appropriate way of ministry life), is an unacceptable plan for ministry and family health for me...and I'd advise against it for others as well.

I'm not saying bivocational ministry is unacceptable. It's actually good and beautiful. But, this model of a professional pastor who is underpaid while maintaining all of the responsibilities of a professional do-er is devastating for family health...and it avoids the calling of a pastor to equip saints for works of service.

If I had to choose between pastoral ministry and a healthy, functional life with my family, I'd choose my family in a heartbeat. My wife and my children are only second to myself in terms of ministry responsibility. I treasure them...and would rather they know the grace of Jesus than anyone else on the planet. I wouldn't trade their destinies for the care of strangers who will never realize the extent of the sacrifice made for their occasional care.

And, I won't have them hating Jesus because of the way I stewarded my time.


Agree 100% Several years ago, I was a bivocational pastor. During that time I decided that I would not sacrifice my family on the altar of church growth. I think people confuse serving God with serving the Church. Two different things.
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3/6/12 10:10 pm


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Post krista
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Quote:
It's based proportionately, which would point us to the Tithe. The Tithe is exactly that.


And yet you have nothing you can use in context that points you to a tithe.


delete


Last edited by krista on 3/9/12 1:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Re: Pastor's who teach the principle of the tithe TarheelBishop
Tracy S Hamilton wrote:
Jack Hayford
Robert Morris
Brady Boyd
Stovall Weems
Joel Osteen
Craig Groeschel
Andy Stanley - the blessing of being a percentage giver (tither)
Loran Livingston
Jentezen Franklin
Ed Young Sr.
Ed Young Jr.
Charles Blake
Bob Coy
Kerry Shook
Dave Stone
T.D. Jakes
Joe Champion
Creflo Dollar
Chuck Smith
Greg Surratt
Tommy Barnett
Jimmy Evans

The list could go on and on and on...... I think all of these men are pretty sound doctrinally and all teach on tithing. Surely that can't all be wrong or maybe they just haven't read Actscelerate.


+1
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3/7/12 1:59 pm


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Post Re: Pastor's who teach the principle of the tithe Resident Skeptic
TarheelBishop wrote:
Tracy S Hamilton wrote:
Jack Hayford
Robert Morris
Brady Boyd
Stovall Weems
Joel Osteen
Craig Groeschel
Andy Stanley - the blessing of being a percentage giver (tither)
Loran Livingston
Jentezen Franklin
Ed Young Sr.
Ed Young Jr.
Charles Blake
Bob Coy
Kerry Shook
Dave Stone
T.D. Jakes
Joe Champion
Creflo Dollar
Chuck Smith
Greg Surratt
Tommy Barnett
Jimmy Evans

The list could go on and on and on...... I think all of these men are pretty sound doctrinally and all teach on tithing. Surely that can't all be wrong or maybe they just haven't read Actscelerate.


+1


Yes, a hearty +1 for false teachers.

Trammell posts tons of scripture and Tracey posts a list of names. Umm, I'll go with Tremmell.
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Post Resident Skeptic
krista wrote:
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Quote:
It's based proportionately, which would point us to the Tithe. The Tithe is exactly that.


And yet you have nothing you can use in context that points you to a tithe.


More than giving as one purposes in their heart. That is false teaching and is not the model for giving. If you want to give according to 2 Corinthians 9, go for it.


Even if Tremmell is wrong on one point, that does not help your cause. Better to miss it on one point than to miss it on dozens of points like the "tithers" do.
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Post Re: Pastor's who teach the principle of the tithe krista
Resident Skeptic wrote:
TarheelBishop wrote:
Tracy S Hamilton wrote:
Jack Hayford
Robert Morris
Brady Boyd
Stovall Weems
Joel Osteen
Craig Groeschel
Andy Stanley - the blessing of being a percentage giver (tither)
Loran Livingston
Jentezen Franklin
Ed Young Sr.
Ed Young Jr.
Charles Blake
Bob Coy
Kerry Shook
Dave Stone
T.D. Jakes
Joe Champion
Creflo Dollar
Chuck Smith
Greg Surratt
Tommy Barnett
Jimmy Evans

The list could go on and on and on...... I think all of these men are pretty sound doctrinally and all teach on tithing. Surely that can't all be wrong or maybe they just haven't read Actscelerate.


+1


Yes, a hearty +1 for false teachers.

Trammell posts tons of scripture and Tracey posts a list of names. Umm, I'll go with Tremmell.


delete


Last edited by krista on 3/9/12 1:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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3/7/12 2:12 pm


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Post krista
Major B. Trammell wrote:
Resident Skeptic wrote:

Even if Tremmell is wrong on one point, that does not help your cause. Better to miss it on one point than to miss it on dozens of points like the "tithers" do.


But, Trammell is not wrong on any of the points in his post in the Myths About Tithing/ Truths About Christian Giving post.

I know you haven't been here for a terribly long time, but krista's purpose on this board is not and never has been to engage in discussions on the issues. He/She trolls this forum looking for an opportunity to stifle discussion and truth that is opposed to traditions. He/She is a contrarian and, as far as I can tell a parody (a poster who is only here as a joke and/or to cause problems). He/She is not to be taken seriously. Since her (I use the feminine pronoun, here, since the name "krista" is feminine, but I don't really know its true identity) arrival, here on Acts, she has not ceased to follow me (and a couple of others) from thread to thread lobbing personal attacks instead of discussion. She stalks, harasses, and attacks and it just goes on and on without end.

For explicit proof of this just do a search of my posts over the past two days and then compare a search of hers over the same period of time (or I can just give links, if you wish) She's followed me to nearly every thread I've posted in and lobbed the personal attacks about my character, my pastorate, my integrity, my motives, and has implied falsehoods about me instead of engaging in the issue.

Then, she pretends to wonder why those she stalks, harasses, and attacks do not reply to her posts. The answer is because she is not seeking discussion. She is only seeking to continue her game.

And so it continues, unchecked.


delete


Last edited by krista on 3/9/12 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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