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 Re: Tracey said.... |
Tracy S Hamilton |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quote: | | Tithes brought into the storehouse (local church) |
There you go again. Please show one shred of evidence that the local church is the "storehouse". |
Study!! All of the men who I listed above believe the same thing. |
It matters not what any of those men say. I asked YOU, brother. We can't form our doctrine around what is popular. |
It has nothing to do with what is popular. From a principle standpoint the storehouse is where people were fed. People today are fed whenever they go to church or should be from spiritual food. And yes, if it is need, physical food.
The principle is woven throughout scripture. The OT is a type and shadow of the NT.... I'm sure you already know that. No matter whether rich or poor, tithing is still 1 cent on every dime. It is not the amount, it is the obedience. No one should be looked down on because their tithe might be $10 a week or no one should be lifted up because their tithe might be $1000 a week.
The men that I have listed above are a little more in depth than just going by what is popular. It is the same with me. Trust me, those who know me well, know that doing the normal is something where I tend to go the other way.
Again, we just simply disagree, it doesn't make you wrong and it certainly doesn't make me wrong. But I am glad to know that I am in pretty good company with what I teach as it relates to tithing.
Last edited by Tracy S Hamilton on 3/5/12 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2716
3/5/12 3:36 pm
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mytimewillcome |
| Most on that list are either multimillionaires or close to it while their congregation struggle to pay their light bill yet still manage to give. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3661
3/5/12 3:39 pm
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Tracy S Hamilton |
| mytimewillcome wrote: | | Most on that list are either multimillionaires or close to it while their congregation struggle to pay their light bill yet still manage to give. |
And how do you know that? How do you know who are multi-millionaires and how do you know that their congregation struggles to pay their light bill?
Nothing has ever been said about that there are not times when people go through tough times. Tough times never negate God's Word.
Last edited by Tracy S Hamilton on 3/5/12 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2716
3/5/12 3:46 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| Troy Hamby wrote: |
This is just a small sampling of what the NT teaches on giving and I'm sure all of you are aware of this already. I have no problem in teaching Christians that they should give...in fact, I like how Travis put it. We should be giving generously, freely, joyously without compulsion or manipulation and our giving should be a blessing not only to the church but to the world. I just have a real problem with how tithing is taught in the church and how some pastors will twist and manipulate scripture to get more "giving units". Blech! |
It is still proportionate giving. The poor are to give and to be celebrated for giving, whether it is the widow giving a mite into the temple treasury or the Macedonians who were incredibly poor but who were also renowned for the radical generosity to the wealthy church in Jerusalem.
I'd go further and say just because our doctrine has open loops (local church as storehouse, etc....) doesn't preclude such from being true. So, I don't think we should be hostile to such. In fact, we are led in the direction that our giving to the local church should be in the same model/rhythm as the tithe...perhaps even being the tithe.
Let's guard ourselves about closing the open loops of Scripture for the sake of our own organizational sanity regardless of which side of the issue we fall on. Let's wrestle it out and both encourage the local church, denominational church, and even the poor widow to give generously, to live counter-culturally, and to work to create environments where not only the widow and orphan receive ministry...but, also where the impoverished Macedonian Church can generously give to people who are better off for the sake of the Gospel. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
3/5/12 3:46 pm
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| The Joy Of Obedience |
doyle |
So far, I haven't seen one Scripture that says tithing is only an Old Testament expectation; not one. I haven't seen any Scripture stating tithing is no longer viewed by God as obedience.
However, the Lord spoke strongly about tithing BUT it was to be done with wisdom and justice."
"This you ought to do."
However, I totally agree that the issue of tithing has been incredibly abused and discredited by tons of wrong emphasis and false promises. Sometimes it's not only what we do but how it's done.
Absolutely never should any minister over-promise; assuring people of particular things that will happen if they tithe. The Bible quotes God in saying He will "Pour out a blessing..." but does not say in particular what that blessing will be.
Ministers who pressure people and rant on people to force them to tithe, actually discredit the joy of obedience.
In many ways, tithing is the first life-style step of obedience for many new Christians.
If the only thing I ever received from tithing was the joy of knowing I was being obedient, that would be enough to continue tithing.
Doyle
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The largest room in the world is the room for improvement. |
Acts-celerate Owner
Posts: 6957
3/5/12 4:10 pm
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InspiredHillbilly |
| p5harri wrote: | | InspiredHillbilly wrote: | | Troy Hamby wrote: | | Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | Travis Johnson wrote: | Ultimately, the new testament teaches first fruits, proportionate to what you make, cheerful, sacrificial, non-coercive giving. I see no place in the new testament where we should be relieved of radical generosity, not only to the stranger, not only to the neighbor, but also to the assembled saints.
Call it a tithe. Call it new testament giving. But, let's not use our theological differences to undermine our cooperative giving. And, let's also not use our stewardship practices to dermine the mission of the church and encourage people to give to a consumeristic, me-is tic lifestyle. |
Tithes brought into the storehouse (local church) should be touching the lives of the stranger, our neighbors, and should be a benefit to the assembled saints. |
Ok, so what if it's not? What if you know for a guaranteed fact that 99% of all tithes that are given to the "storehouse" is going towards salaries, mortgage and electric? What if you know definitively that little if none of the tithes actually went towards what God meant it to go to...blessing the widows, orphans, poor, hungry, etc?
Can you stop tithing to that church because it's not fulfilling it's end of the bargain? |
So the paying of full time ministerial salaries isn't touching the lives of widows, orphans, etc? That full time youth pastor that can have great youth ministries for the project kids... or the full time pastor that can visit the shut in since he doesn't have to work a secular job isn't the tithe touching them?
And the electric bill and having insurance paid for isn't assisting in the ministry of touching lives? I totally disagree if that is your statement here. |
For years pastors visited the sick and shut in without the benefit of it being a full time job. When I was growing up there weren't any full time salaried pastors and yet they got the job done. |
Patrick, you totally missed the point of my comments... no one would invalidate the honest ministry that goes on by volunteer ministers as well as bi-vocational. In the part of the country I grew up in, even today probably about 50% of them receive nothing more than a pastor's appreciate gift and a Christmas gift once a year. And they serve and love their people.
My comment was to Troy making it sound like people tithing and it going to salaries, electric bills, insurance, and building maintenance wasn't ministry... or touching lives....
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Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ
The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret... |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2120
3/5/12 4:24 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
Wow. These tithe threads will never end.
Ten % is indeed the rule God used in the past - and I think it is a fantastic rule of thumb for us today. Anything less than that - and I don't believe you are really trusting God with your finances. I believe a minister teaching the principle of giving is correct in referring back to the OT tithe principle. That minister should also teach that God loves a cheerful giver - and that if they can't be cheerful in giving 10% - then they should put it back in their pocket until they could be - just as when Christ said the one at the altar praying should stop praying until he has made things right with his brother.
Furthermore - if they have brothers that have "ought" against them - and if they can't give 10% cheerfully - they have some spiritual growing to do - again - if you are here on this earth and can't put at least 10% of your finances and your time into doing God's work - then what are you here for?
I have two problems with today's tithe teaching...
1) My problem is - teaching that God curses you today if you don't tithe. Don't believe that - but if you aren't giving at least that amount - I believe you have a spiritual problem (see above).
2) My problem is - teaching that the church is God's storehouse and the tithe must be given there to actually count as giving it to God. Actually I don't have a problem teaching that - IF - the church actually was the storehouse in the same way it was in the OT. Unfortunately, the churches I have attended tried to spiritualize the tithe and say it was now the storehouse for "spiritual " meat only - which only the pastor and staff dispensed - thus they are to be taken care of as the suppliers of said "spiritual meat". Of course, they keep some canned meat and crackers and bottles of water for the hungry and widows - if they ask for it - and the office is still open. That is what I have seen - that is what I have a problem with.
If the church is not going to be the storehouse for the 10% like the OT storehouse was - then it doesn't deserve to get the tithe imho.
Where does it say that you must give to the church to be tithing. I thought when you gave water to the least of these - you had given it to Jesus himself - that sounds like "giving it" to God imho. Where does it say that giving in Jesus name DOESN'T count as the tithe?
Again - 10% SHOULD BE GIVEN BY ALL. It is a principle that I believe IS taught in the OT and NT. We should be working toward giving almost 100% - and only keep the small portion we need to maintain ourselves for His service. I'm convinced that is what is taught in the NT - Jesus often taught giving up everything - homes, land, family members (if necessary) - and taking up your cross.
Last time I checked - jokers picking up crosses and carrying them somewhere - 100% of the time weren't going back to ANYTHING - it was all left behind.
Of course - this is simply my opinion - feel free to reject.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
3/5/12 4:54 pm
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| Good stuff!! |
Tracy S Hamilton |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Wow. These tithe threads will never end.
Ten % is indeed the rule God used in the past - and I think it is a fantastic rule of thumb for us today. Anything less than that - and I don't believe you are really trusting God with your finances. I believe a minister teaching the principle of giving is correct in referring back to the OT tithe principle. That minister should also teach that God loves a cheerful giver - and that if they can't be cheerful in giving 10% - then they should put it back in their pocket until they could be - just as when Christ said the one at the altar praying should stop praying until he has made things right with his brother.
Furthermore - if they have brothers that have "ought" against them - and if they can't give 10% cheerfully - they have some spiritual growing to do - again - if you are here on this earth and can't put at least 10% of your finances and your time into doing God's work - then what are you here for?
I have two problems with today's tithe teaching...
1) My problem is - teaching that God curses you today if you don't tithe. Don't believe that - but if you aren't giving at least that amount - I believe you have a spiritual problem (see above).
2) My problem is - teaching that the church is God's storehouse and the tithe must be given there to actually count as giving it to God. Actually I don't have a problem teaching that - IF - the church actually was the storehouse in the same way it was in the OT. Unfortunately, the churches I have attended tried to spiritualize the tithe and say it was now the storehouse for "spiritual " meat only - which only the pastor and staff dispensed - thus they are to be taken care of as the suppliers of said "spiritual meat". Of course, they keep some canned meat and crackers and bottles of water for the hungry and widows - if they ask for it - and the office is still open. That is what I have seen - that is what I have a problem with.
If the church is not going to be the storehouse for the 10% like the OT storehouse was - then it doesn't deserve to get the tithe imho.
Where does it say that you must give to the church to be tithing. I thought when you gave water to the least of these - you had given it to Jesus himself - that sounds like "giving it" to God imho. Where does it say that giving in Jesus name DOESN'T count as the tithe?
Again - 10% SHOULD BE GIVEN BY ALL. It is a principle that I believe IS taught in the OT and NT. We should be working toward giving almost 100% - and only keep the small portion we need to maintain ourselves for His service. I'm convinced that is what is taught in the NT - Jesus often taught giving up everything - homes, land, family members (if necessary) - and taking up your cross.
Last time I checked - jokers picking up crosses and carrying them somewhere - 100% of the time weren't going back to ANYTHING - it was all left behind.
Of course - this is simply my opinion - feel free to reject. |
Good stuff Nature.... I agree. I don't believe that God curses you if you don't tithe. I believe that we live in a cursed world... See Genesis....
God came to redeem us from a cursed world. Paul talks about not conforming to the patterns of this world. I also believe that Malachi is about as plain as it gets.... sorry to some that it is OT.... that what God was telling us is that without the tithe, we are trusting a system that by its very nature is cursed. See the Garden of Eden for reference.
I believe that I have been blessed because of the tithe and I do it joyfully. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2716
3/5/12 5:04 pm
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| Re: Pastor's who teach the principle of the tithe |
bradfreeman |
| Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | Jack Hayford
Robert Morris
Brady Boyd
Stovall Weems
Joel Osteen
Craig Groeschel
Andy Stanley - the blessing of being a percentage giver (tither)
Loran Livingston
Jentezen Franklin
Ed Young Sr.
Ed Young Jr.
Charles Blake
Bob Coy
Kerry Shook
Dave Stone
T.D. Jakes
Joe Champion
Creflo Dollar
Chuck Smith
Greg Surratt
Tommy Barnett
Jimmy Evans
The list could go on and on and on...... I think all of these men are pretty sound doctrinally and all teach on tithing. Surely that can't all be wrong or maybe they just haven't read Actscelerate. |
Others who do not teach the principle of the tithe:
Paul
Peter
James
John
Barnabas
The Holy Ghost - Acts 15:28,29
The list could go on and on and on...... I think all of these are pretty sound doctrinally and none teach on NT tithing. Surely they can't all be wrong or maybe they just haven't read Actscelerate. 
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
3/5/12 5:15 pm
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| Conflation confusion |
Poimen |
Just a note, for clarity -- the first fruit and the tithe are not one and the same. That's a misnomer. The first fruit was one of the "offerings" of the law, and was distinct from the tithe. Simply stated ...
Tithes came at the end of the counting.
First fruits was done at the beginning.
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Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
3/5/12 5:56 pm
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| I know I'm a broken record... |
Clint Wills |
But one thing that nobody can argue with me about is that I have been faithful to tithe my entire adult life and God has ALWAYS taken care of every need - and even opened the flood gates for me.
Here's a testimony of why I tithe. Last May I was laid off from a job. I went the summer without work before signing on as a design contractor here in town. Now, in my second contract, in 10 months I will have made about 150% of what I have ever made in any 12 month period in my life.
I'm not saying that is because I tithe, but I'm not gonna find out how that may have gone differently if I didn't. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5163
3/5/12 5:56 pm
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chainrattler |
| InspiredHillbilly wrote: | So the paying of full time ministerial salaries isn't touching the lives of widows, orphans, etc? That full time youth pastor that can have great youth ministries for the project kids... or the full time pastor that can visit the shut in since he doesn't have to work a secular job isn't the tithe touching them?
And the electric bill and having insurance paid for isn't assisting in the ministry of touching lives? I totally disagree if that is your statement here. |
No, actually, it's not.
It's touching the life of the minister (and his family), and it's touching the life of that youth pastor, but it is not touching the life of the widow and orphans.
It only touches their lives when they are able to take the "real tithe" not a metaphorical tithe of intangible blessings, and use that "real tithe" to put food in their mouths and keep a roof over their head or buy medicine when they're sick. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 976
3/5/12 6:23 pm
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chainrattler |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | You should do that as a life plan. Your kids and wife will love you for it. |
And that is part of the problem, right there.
You young kids have come to expect a comfortable, middle-class American standard of living as your right in this world, even if you're in the ministry.
Do you realize that the standard of living that we have enjoyed for the last 67 years in this country is an anomaly in comparison to world history?
That 67 years of post-WW2 prosperity (that only 6% of the world's population has gotten to enjoy) represents only 3.33% of world history in the last 2012 years? For 96.7% of the time since Jesus came to earth, such prosperity was unknown to all but a miniscule part of the population (saved or unsaved).
Those same 67 years only represent 28.3% of the total time the United States has existed as a nation. For 71.7% of our nation's history (almost 3/4) such prosperity has been unknown, and now it is expected as the norm?
So the norm has been lack, and survival skills, and gratitude for a morsel of bread and a cup of clean water for over 6,000,000,000 people for over 20 centuries.
But today we expect a cushy lifestyle as our right, while others around us suffer. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 976
3/5/12 6:37 pm
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| Re: Tracey said.... |
chainrattler |
| Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quote: | | Tithes brought into the storehouse (local church) |
There you go again. Please show one shred of evidence that the local church is the "storehouse". |
Study!! All of the men who I listed above believe the same thing. |
And they all have a vested interest in believing that. Their income depends on it. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 976
3/5/12 6:39 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| chainrattler wrote: | | Travis Johnson wrote: | | You should do that as a life plan. Your kids and wife will love you for it. |
And that is part of the problem, right there.
You young kids have come to expect a comfortable, middle-class American standard of living as your right in this world, even if you're in the ministry.
Do you realize that the standard of living that we have enjoyed for the last 67 years in this country is an anomaly in comparison to world history?
That 67 years of post-WW2 prosperity (that only 6% of the world's population has gotten to enjoy) represents only 3.33% of world history in the last 2012 years? For 96.7% of the time since Jesus came to earth, such prosperity was unknown to all but a miniscule part of the population (saved or unsaved).
Those same 67 years only represent 28.3% of the total time the United States has existed as a nation. For 71.7% of our nation's history (almost 3/4) such prosperity has been unknown, and now it is expected as the norm?
So the norm has been lack, and survival skills, and gratitude for a morsel of bread and a cup of clean water for over 6,000,000,000 people for over 20 centuries.
But today we expect a cushy lifestyle as our right, while others around us suffer. |
No one said anything about standard of living. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
3/5/12 7:34 pm
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| Re: Pastor's who teach the principle of the tithe |
Tracy S Hamilton |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | Jack Hayford
Robert Morris
Brady Boyd
Stovall Weems
Joel Osteen
Craig Groeschel
Andy Stanley - the blessing of being a percentage giver (tither)
Loran Livingston
Jentezen Franklin
Ed Young Sr.
Ed Young Jr.
Charles Blake
Bob Coy
Kerry Shook
Dave Stone
T.D. Jakes
Joe Champion
Creflo Dollar
Chuck Smith
Greg Surratt
Tommy Barnett
Jimmy Evans
The list could go on and on and on...... I think all of these men are pretty sound doctrinally and all teach on tithing. Surely that can't all be wrong or maybe they just haven't read Actscelerate. |
Others who do not teach the principle of the tithe:
Paul
Peter
James
John
Barnabas
The Holy Ghost - Acts 15:28,29
The list could go on and on and on...... I think all of these are pretty sound doctrinally and none teach on NT tithing. Surely they can't all be wrong or maybe they just haven't read Actscelerate. |
Opinion..... plain and simple..... we all know that you have one as do others. I don't think they had to preach something that was apparently the norm. Jesus said .... "this you ought to do." That seems like enough for me. I don't think the disciples would contradict Jesus. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2716
3/5/12 8:12 pm
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| The PRINCIPLE is fine... |
FloridaForever |
It is the REQUIREMENT that has been done away.
As I've said elsewhere, though I KNOW that God does not bless me above non-tithers, nor would He "curse" me beneath others if I stopped, I follow the PRINCIPLE of tithing because:
1) It's a good number to use. Not enough to break you, but enough to be of significance and demonstrate generosity.
2) It's a good example to set for other Christians. After all, the church does need our giving, and so do many important ministries.
3) As a member of the Church of God, even though I don't know of it being REQUIRED, it is expected.
4) Hey, I get to be a part of the GREATEST PROGRAM IN THE UNIVERSE: GOD'S KINGDOM!!! I get to help feed the hungry, shelter the orphans, bless those in need!!!! All for a measly 10% of my income, I get to connect up the King of Kings in what He is doing on Earth! WOW!!!
I do not believe, nor do I practice, giving ALL of my tithe to the local church, but I do give ALL my tithe to the work of God. It might be a widow in hard times, a retired minister who could use a boost, etc. For many years, I gave these only as offerings. But then I realized that I have no good reason for giving my tithes to the local church, but my offerings elsewhere. The SAME scripture that is used to demand that people bring their tithes to the "storehouse" (which is conveniently defined as your local church), also commands the same of offerings. So I conveniently ignore it and do what I KNOW in my heart to be right.
You should do the same! |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
3/5/12 8:57 pm
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| A pastor who would say |
Larry Wiley |
| Quote: | When you have pastor says that if he gives 10% and I give 9%, God will bless him but not me because I didn't give the 10, that's an issue.
Yes, I have heard this from a pastor |
I not a very wise pastor.
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Larry Wiley |
Acts Mod
Posts: 5298
3/5/12 9:25 pm
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chainrattler |
| Travis Johnson wrote: |
No one said anything about standard of living. |
That is exactly the impact of your response to the statement:
| Quote: | For years pastors visited the sick and shut in without the benefit of it being a full time job. When I was growing up there weren't any full time salaried pastors and yet they got the job done.
You should do that as a life plan. Your kids and wife will love you for it. |
Being bivocational does impact your standard of living. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 976
3/5/12 9:33 pm
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| Re: I know I'm a broken record... |
theElder |
| Clint Wills wrote: | But one thing that nobody can argue with me about is that I have been faithful to tithe my entire adult life and God has ALWAYS taken care of every need - and even opened the flood gates for me.
Here's a testimony of why I tithe. Last May I was laid off from a job. I went the summer without work before signing on as a design contractor here in town. Now, in my second contract, in 10 months I will have made about 150% of what I have ever made in any 12 month period in my life.
I'm not saying that is because I tithe, but I'm not gonna find out how that may have gone differently if I didn't. |
Exactly, brother!
Whatever others believe or do to the contrary will not stop me and my family from tithing! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1926
3/5/12 11:00 pm
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