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Why Is "Wives Submitting," a Taboo Topic?
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Post Why Is "Wives Submitting," a Taboo Topic? Link
On a recent thread on ministers who feel called to ministry whose wives are not supportive, I seemed to get the sense that some posters were not too keen on discussing the idea of wives submitting to their husbands. A while back, I posted a couple of threads on the topic of submission and got a couple of PMs from people, the content of which surprised me.

Why is it that, even among conservative Pentecostal and other Evangelical Christians, if a man expresses a concern about wives submitting to husbands, the man might be suspected of being a domineering person or even worse. I saw a video on YouTube which contained a lot of arguments that seemed rather spurious and contrary to the context of scripture arguing that the Bible didn’t really tell women to submit to their husbands. The background had pictures of women who had been abused and lots of facts about abuse, as if Biblical teaching on wives submitting to husbands were at the root of abuse. Unfortunately, this attitude seems common among Evangelicals, even if not held to this extreme.

I read a little study guide that contained a section on marriage and quoted from Ephesians 5. I don’t remember the exact words in the commentary, but it was something along these lines,
“Yes the passage tells wives to submit to their husbands. We have all heard a lot of people preaching about wives submitting to their husbands. But husbands, you’d better listen to me buster, loving your wife like Christ loves the church is a lot bigger deal.” Then, it addressed the husband’s role.

I thought, that’s not true. I hardly ever heard any preachers talking about wives needing to submit to their husbands. The typical thing I hear or read is “We’ve all heard a lot about wives submitting to husbands. Well, husbands, loving your wives like Christ loved the church is a bigger responsibility” (conveniently skipping over that controversial submission part.)

Maybe the people who say this stuff grew up before the 1970’s when I was a kid. Maybe they are younger but when to Independent Baptist churches or conservative churches where women cannot speak at all and there is a lot of emphasis on patriarchy. But I haven’t heard emphasis on wives submitting in Pentecostal churches, Charismatic churches, or mildly seeker sensitive churches that I can recall beyond a passing reference.

The other thing I hear in reference to wives submitting is someone reads that and says something like, “but if he tells you to smoke crack and kill someone, don’t do that.” Maybe it’s not that extreme of an example, but the cases of when NOT to submit seem the be the next popular topic of discussion. Even if the speaker and audience have husbands who are mature Christians, the topic of what submission looks like and how to do it in marriage gets skipped over, at least for the time being, just to make sure none of the wives smoke crack and rob a bank because their husbands put them up to it.

Marriages in our society are falling apart. The feminist experiment with society and marriage isn’t working. In how many homes of people who go to church with us, if you asked both husband and wife if the wife submits to her husband and the husband functions as the head of the home, both husband and wife would say ‘yes’? What would their children say? How many husbands and wives and children would answer that the husband takes a primarily role in teaching the children the word of God and in heading up the household?

I don’t see a lot of teaching on this in the churches I’ve been to. Yours may well be different. I hear teaching on marriage that focuses on communication. There isn’t anything wrong with that, but isn’t it likely that the solutions to marriage problems lie in the few instructions that the apostles repeated a few times to married couples? There are three verses telling wives to submit to their husbands and one telling old women to teach young women to love their husbands and be subject to them. Yes, men do get a lot more space in scripture devoted to loving their wives.

So here are some questions for discussion.

Pastors and posters, if you are counseling, whether formally or informally, with a married couple, and the man points out that his wife does not submit to him, do you assume the man is a control freak? Do you try to fix what is wrong with the man?

Btw, if a man loves his wife, wouldn’t he want his wife to submit to him? My wife and I once had a conversation about this, and she said, “I submit to you, not because of you. I do it for the Lord.” I agree with her sentiments completely. Since I love my wife I want her to be right with God. I want her to be submitted to Christ, and part of that is her being submissive to me. Submission is something she does. Subjugating would be something a husband does. I am not to subjugate my wife, trying to force her to submit. She submits willfully to me, as unto the Lord. She does it because she honors the Lord.

Pastors and posters, does your church make an effort to teach women to submit to their husbands? What do you do to encourage it? Are there older women in the church who disciple the younger women in loving their husbands and submitting to them? How do you teach men to exercise responsible headship in the home? Do you have any people in your church who disciple the younger men in this area? Is there a concerted effort in this area?

For the married men, is your wife submissive to you? Don’t feel compelled to answer if the answer is ‘no.’ (You might get it later if your wife reads the forum.)

For the married women, do you submit to your own husbands? Do you feel uncomfortable discussing the issue of submitting to your husband with your husband? If so, why? Do you teach younger women about this, or do you have an older woman who teaches you?

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12/13/11 6:45 pm


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Post Sexist or not (in others opinions) I'd rather be biblical Poimen
Link, at the risk of being scorned profusely, I think this is the best and most thought provoking post I have ever read of yours to date. It centers in nicely, and fairly, on the issue of biblical submission between a wife and her husband. And your passing mention of the effects of deviating therefrom on society at large are worth exploring too. God designed marriage the way He did for a reason, and He called it good. We are not smarter than He.

I hope others will sincerely and honestly engage with you on this topic, and not let it devolve into a bunch of theological smack and posturing. The family, the marriage, is paramount for the health of humanity and society. God knows what will work best for all concerned, and we would reap great blessings by sincerely pursuing biblical principles for our marriages and homes.
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12/13/11 7:02 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
I hardly ever heard any preachers talking about wives needing to submit to their husbands.


Our pastor mentions it. In fact a while back, he said that husbands needed to "control" their wives. I think he got some negative feedback, and he backed off the topic for a while, saying he did not want to "choke" us with food that we weren't ready for.
Just Sunday, in his message on Joseph and Mary, he used them as a springboard to discuss how man should be the "spiritual leader of the home." He said that women were more open to the things of God (I inferred he meant manifestations of the Spirit) than men because God made them that way. (?) He went on to say that if a women comes out with some strange manifestation, her husband needs to tell her it's not scriptural. I have heard him mention in conversations that the woman was made for the man and not vice versa. He definitely doesn't skip over the scripture that says a wife should submit to her husband.
The last pastor I had before this one also spoke strongly about the need of a wife to submit to her husband. And his wife, in a Q and A session, said if they ever had disagreements she deferred to him. (I must admit I was skeptical of whether that was always the case, but at the time, I kept my own counsel.)
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12/13/11 7:05 pm


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Post Link Cojak
I read my comment over and it sounded sorta stupid, so I deleted it.. very unusual for me Shocked Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Last edited by Cojak on 12/13/11 7:20 pm; edited 4 times in total
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12/13/11 7:13 pm


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Thanks for the encouragement Poimen.

And thanks for the feedback, Bonnie. I suspected a lot of people would have far different experience than mine. I'd imagine whether someone goes to a church in a rural versus urban area or the south versus the north or west could make a difference, too.

Are there women in the church who encourage younger women to love their husbands, be diligent about the home and the submit to their husbands?
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12/13/11 7:14 pm


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Post bonnie knox
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Don’t feel compelled to answer if the answer is ‘no.’


I doubt anyone is going to feel compelled to answer pointed questions about their personal relationships. I certainly hope not.
Besides, what kind of objectivity do you expect? Beyond that, whose standards are you expecting them to use?
As you are aware, there isn't agreement even among the few posting on Acts over whether a husband should be a pastor if his wife isn't fully supportive of it. I'm sure the disagreement would extend to many other areas as well.
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12/13/11 7:28 pm


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Post bonnie knox
I'm reminded of something I remember hearing many years ago on a cassette tape by Cloud and Townsend on "Boundaries in Marriage." Near the end of the cassette, they addressed the issue of wives submitting. They said it had been their experience that the only time they were asked that was when individuals were wanting to control their partner.
FWIW.
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12/13/11 7:35 pm


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bonnie knox wrote:
I'm reminded of something I remember hearing many years ago on a cassette tape by Cloud and Townsend on "Boundaries in Marriage." Near the end of the cassette, they addressed the issue of wives submitting. They said it had been their experience that the only time they were asked that was when individuals were wanting to control their partner.
FWIW.


I just looked at their website and watched a couple of minutes of their videos. I don't know much about them. But this thing you said sends up a red flag for me. Any couple trying to diligently study scripture and apply what it says about marriage is going to have to have concern with the issue of wives submitting to their husbands. There are a few passages in the New Testament that give instructions to wives and husbands. Paul told wives to submit to their husbands twice, and told older women to tell younger wives to submit to their husbands once. Peter told wives to submit to their husbands, even those who are disobedient to the word. I may look at their videos. I would be careful taking the advice of someone who dismissed a Biblical concern like that. I think many most of the answers to marriage problems can be found in husbands and wives following Paul and Peter's instructions.

You mentioned your pastor saying a man should control his wife, also. I guess that depends on what you mean by 'control.' It doesn't sound like a good word. I've heard of a 'control spirit' before in some circles, even.

If a man tells his wife, "Honey, I want you to get rid of that skirt. It is too short for you" or if he tells his wife he doesn't want her spending more than X amount on the credit credit card and checks up with her about it, you might say he is controlling her. Some wives have a problem with issues like this, and it may not be wrong for her husband to keep her in 'control' in a loving manner of course. If the same man had a mature, godly wife, he might not be as controlling.

Then there are real control freaks like a man who tells his wife she can't go into the other room without asking his permission. Suppose a man is somewhat controlling. He has a chart with chores for everyone in the household, including his wife, to do. He has a curfew for everyone because he believes the city is not safe. Meals all have to be planned out in advance based on nutritional content and calorie count, and he expects his wife to follow his program and his way of life. I'd see someone like that and maybe I'd think he was too controlling. I might even consider him to be a control freak. I'm not like that at all. But does that mean I should tell his wife she doesn't have to submit to him. No, of course not. I also have to realize that if someone leads his house a little differently (e.g. in a more controlling way) than I do, that doesn't mean it is wrong for them.

Women in this society usually have a choice of who they marry. They can take some time and see what kind of man he is, and choose the man they want to submit to in marriage. Should a woman stop submitting to not sinful, but controlling or irritating desires of her husband after she makes her decision to marry him? Why would she marry a control freak if she isn't willing to submit to him. Maybe he hid his tendencies before marriage, but you'd think something like that would show through.

If a man is more controlling than this, like he tells his wife not to leave the room without his permission, if he is a believer, I believe other men in the church should step in and instruct him on how to treat his wife properly. A wife who submits to a man like this can always pray for the Lord to correct Him. I really believe God listens to His children who keep their hearts pure who are in vulnerable situations like that.
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12/13/11 8:35 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
I would be careful taking the advice of someone who dismissed a Biblical concern like that.


I don't believe Cloud and Townsend were dismissing a Biblical concern; they were saying in their personal experience as counselors (don't know if it was both of them or not), they had never encountered anyone who brought this up in response to their teaching on boundaries who did not seem to have "control" issues.
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12/13/11 9:03 pm


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bonnie knox wrote:
Quote:
I would be careful taking the advice of someone who dismissed a Biblical concern like that.


I don't believe Cloud and Townsend were dismissing a Biblical concern; they were saying in their personal experience as counselors (don't know if it was both of them or not), they had never encountered anyone who brought this up in response to their teaching on boundaries who did not seem to have "control" issues.


That might be the case. I don't know. Do they teach the proper way for a wife to submit to her husband? If it doesn't factor into their teachings, I'd be suspicious that they consider that they consider someone with a legitimate concern about wives submitting to their husbands as being controlling.

I'm not a marriage counselor psychologist type, but I have heard 'boundaries' through around to justify things that just didn't seem, justifying selfishness for example. Wives submitting to their husbands and husbands loving their wives should be 'core' teachings on how to get along as husband and wife.
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12/13/11 9:16 pm


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Post bonnie knox
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That might be the case. I don't know. Do they teach the proper way for a wife to submit to her husband? If it doesn't factor into their teachings, I'd be suspicious that they consider that they consider someone with a legitimate concern about wives submitting to their husbands as being controlling.


I really don't think they said, "Hey, this guy must have a problem with being controlling BECAUSE he brought this up." I think as counselors they were able to identify what kind of person had control issues. THEN they noted that only those whom they had recognized as having control issues were the ones who brought it up. Anyway, that was my take on what they said.
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Post Randy Johnson
I think the source of women not submitting to their husbands has been a profuse history and experience with immature and carnal men. Shocked
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12/13/11 9:29 pm


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Randy Johnson wrote:
I think the source of women not submitting to their husbands has been a profuse history and experience with immature and carnal men. Shocked


Combined with a lack of teaching on or understanding of the fact that women are to submit as a means of submitting to Christ, not because their husbands are mature and spiritual.
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Post Quiet Wyatt
"You take JW there. He don't have to fool around. He's got the perfect wife. Lois is a lady, first and foremost. Quiet and reserved, always stylishly dressed. He never has to ask for his dinner or hunt for clean socks. You gotta get 'em while they're young and take 'em right from their mama, and you raise 'em up right by you to keep 'em true. You raise 'em just like you would a bird dog." [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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Post Quiet Wyatt
...or a slave. If ya have ta slap 'em around a bit to show 'em who's boss, well, they just needs to come ta a understandin' that they have ta submit. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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12/13/11 10:06 pm


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Since this got a sticky, I'll go ahead and share something.

I knew a missionary overseas who really did a lot of work founding Bible schools and things like that. He was probably a Type A personality. He was really nice guy. You could always reach him on his cell phone, and hundreds of people felt like he was a father to them.

One time though, he showed one of his flaws. He was with his wife in a van and probably a few other people including myself, the driver, and maybe someone else. He and his wife were talking and she had forgotten to put some money in a bank account to cover the bills, maybe back in the US. He got really upset and raised his voice at her and looked angry as he had a bit of a fit.

She just agreed with him that she was wrong, that what she did was stupid. She was very calm throughout the whole thing. Within a few seconds, he still looked angry, but there was nothing for him to react to. She didn't argue back. She didn't say, "Don't talk to me like that." or "Don't talk to me like that in front of these people." My view of him might have gone down a notch or two after that.

But I have great respect for that man's wife (widow now), for the way she handled that. She interacted with her husband with submissiveness and respect, and just didn't give any fuel at all the fire of his anger. She may have told him it was inappropriate later, when we weren't around. I don't know. But it took a kind of strength and self-control to do that. Submission takes strength. I respect a woman who can do that.

I also wonder how many arguments in marriages can be prevented or quelled by a wife having an attitude of submission and reverence toward her husband. If she wants to correct him and does it with respect/reverence, how many arguments would that solve. I don't see how yelling, for example, is consistent with either submission or respect. Of course, if men loved their wives like Christ loved the church, too, that would prevent a lot of arguing. I just don't imagine Christ yelling at His church.
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12/13/11 10:08 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Link, what you saw in her reaction was an indication that she had been forced to deal with that kind of outburst before. JMO. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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12/13/11 10:16 pm


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bonnie knox wrote:
Link, what you saw in her reaction was an indication that she had been forced to deal with that kind of outburst before. JMO.


Yeah, she'd probably had to deal with his temper before. But it seemed like she 'beat' him in a sense, I mean 'bested' him by the way she responded.


He had said he was a very mean person before he got saved.
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12/13/11 10:20 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Link wrote:
bonnie knox wrote:
Link, what you saw in her reaction was an indication that she had been forced to deal with that kind of outburst before. JMO.


Yeah, she'd probably had to deal with his temper before. But it seemed like she 'beat' him in a sense, I mean 'bested' him by the way she responded.


He had said he was a very mean person before he got saved.


"A soft answer turneth away wrath," says The Good Book. I find it interesting that you saw that situation more in light of a wife submitting to her husband than in a "soft answer turning away wrath" which would work for both women and men.
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12/13/11 10:23 pm


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bonnie knox wrote:
Link wrote:


"A soft answer turneth away wrath," says The Good Book. I find it interesting that you saw that situation more in light of a wife submitting to her husband than in a "soft answer turning away wrath" which would work for both women and men.


That's probably an even better passage for that situation. I am also thinking about the coals of fire verse, though they weren't enemies.
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