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Maybe I'm Too Old Fashion
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Post Nature Boy Florida
While I know very well the scriptures used to argue a case from scripture for total abstinence - they are not overwhelmingly absolute.

I have no judgment for those that consume alcohol - just as I don't have judgment for a lot of other things.

Tom Sterbens and Pastors Friend have given you the basis for total abstinence. I concur with them for their reasons given - not the overwhelming scriptural evidence - which isn't actually there.
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8/10/11 6:01 am


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Post Eddie Robbins
I just want to say.....I LOVE this discussion. No personal attacks, sincere thought, sincere belief. I come to it with a different perspective that is really out of place. I am not a "minister" and even though I LOVE the COG with ALL my heart, do not attend a COG locally for various reasons. If ANY of the persons discussing here would come to my area and plant a church, I would be there. I LOVE you guys. I love COG fellowship. That is why you see me at COG events.

If I were a minister in the COG, I would abide by ALL of the Practical Commitments to the best of my ability. This includes treating my body as the Temple of the Holy Ghost, a gift that God has loaned to me while I am on this earth. This body is not my own. It HURTS me to see our ministers WAY overweight at meetings like the Assembly. I grieve for them. Having been over 300 pounds most of my adult life, I understand the lifestyle. I hurt for you guys and believe that you can change as I did. Just like alcohol abuse, people are dying from obesity. My wonderful Daddy died at 53 with diabetes because he didn't take care of his body.

I know this is a hijack and understand if you pass right by. No problem with that. but, I love you guys and hope that you can be leaders in TOTAL self discipline, not just alcohol. Treat your body as if God almighty gave it to you for a season because He did.

Initial Evidence.....I am with Paul Walker and Jack Hayford, 2 of the greatest Pentecostal leaders of our time. Please discuss this issue without bringing charges against your brother for heresy.
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8/10/11 6:25 am


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Post Re: Alcohol consumption Troy Hamby
Pastors Friend wrote:


BTW, I have a son that has three DUIs and facing a fourth. He is twenty seven and probably facing some serious jail time. His pretrial is
Thursday in Savannah. It all started with thinking is was cool to slip around a get a beer now and then with his buddies, but it graduated to the hard stuff. Said beer and wine lost its buzz for him. How long will it take you consumers to loose your buzz on the wine and beer? Would you graduate to the hard stuff if it was offered to you? My sons attorney in a previous case was killed by a drunk driver just after he defended my son in his third case.
The drunk driver was the attorney himself! I don't need any scripture to tell me alcohol is wrong. I have learned enough from sinners what it will do!

PF


i truly do sympathize with you and your son Pastor and I will be praying for your situation. But as a former alcoholic myself, I have to say that if it wasn't alcohol, it would have been something else. My problem wasn't alcohol or drugs or anything else, it was my addictive personality and my lack of surrender to Christ. When I truly gave my life to Jesus, alcohol and other addictions that I had became a non issue because I was filled with the Spirit and He became my addiction. And now, 12 years later, I am finally understanding grace and His unconditional love for me and I feel foolish for trying to keep all those rules all those years to earn His love.
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8/10/11 7:11 am


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Post Thank You Mark Hardgrove
Chris, you are right on target. I've never offended anyone by telling them I don't drink. I've been to Europe and other countries and I've never noted even a hint of offense when I ask for water. I do know, however, that I would offend many if I asked for a drink.

I can't think of one reason why I would want to drink alcohol in any form, but I can think of many reasons why I would not want to drink a drop. I think there are a lot of naive people who have not had to deal with lives and families that have been ruined by alcohol, or who have not had to stand with a grieving mother after her son has been killed by a drunk driver who only had "one beer."

I've had people leave the church because of my stance, but I will not compromise on this for the sake of keeping somone in the church. I remember once telling a man that he could not join the Church of God if he smoked. I figured that I'd never see him again. That was fourteen years ago, he quit smoking and remains a non-smoker. He'd had a heart-attack a few years before he quit and I believe our stand may have saved his life, or at least lengthened it by many years.

Chris, stand strong. Some things are worth holding on to.
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8/10/11 7:15 am


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Post After reading what I wrote... KevinWallace
It came to me that I missed what this discussion was about... I believe in abstinence.
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8/10/11 7:18 am


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Post Re: After reading what I wrote... Travis Johnson
KevinWallace wrote:
It came to me that I missed what this discussion was about... I believe in abstinence.


Yeah right. Do you and Moody both kick back a brew before yelling at the refs at Lee basketball games? Tell the truth, Kevin.
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8/10/11 7:21 am


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Post Trav KevinWallace
Since you brought it up...

I typically posture myself in a way to help moody all that I can. Historically he needs the help on this board and in other various facets of life. However, you bring up a valid concern about his behavior at lee basketball games. I have for years heard snippits of Moody's torturous treatment of basket ball refs. I have actually had people transfer their membership from his church to mine because of the way he treats refs. To associate me with moody and his behavior at a lee basketball game puts a severe strain on our relationship Trav. I thought you knew me. But if you think I border on misappropriate conduct when I go to a Lee game like my friend Moody, then you don't know me.

I have to go for now... I have a mental rehab counseling appointment with a man Ive never met. He says he is a former ref and he wants me to help him recover from the mental and emotional trauma that he suffered aa a result of the merciless verbal abuse spewed by a pastor in Cleveland.
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8/10/11 7:43 am


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Post Re: Maybe I'm Too Old Fashion Randy Johnson
C. Chris Moody wrote:
What is social drinking and moderation? How will the youth group who just stopped in Chilli's know the beer on my table was my only one? I am of the opinion that if you have one then you will probably have another. How do you teach kids social drinking? I mean how much is too much? It's way too complicated.


Chris, if you read my other posts on this subject you will know that I do not drink, even moderately, however, I believe there are two answers to this question that are vitally important and I think our ancestors missed.

You asked, "How will the youth group know it has been only one?" The answer is twofold:

#1. They won't know unless they ask you.

#2. It's none of their business.

In the past, we were asked to judge our behavior on the basis of what other people might "see". This was a mistake and fell short of the spirit of Paul's admonition not to "judge someone else's servant" or "to be a stumblingblock to the weak".

Too often in our past, we allowed "being a stumblingblock" to be defined as letting "church people" control our behavior based upon what they saw, instead of caring about the possibility of leading someone with a weak conscience into temptation to sin. The emphasis was on us and our image in the eyes of other "church people" instead of the spiritual welfare of our brethren.

The truth is, that many of those "church people" who would accuse us of "being a stumblingblock" would never in reality be tempted to indulge in the same behavior despite believing it to be sin; rather, they simply wanted to control other people's lives and used "being a stumblingblock" as a means to do it.

I am not saying this to justify "social drinking". I am trying to point out that our decisions should be based on love for those whom we know would be tempted to violate their conscience. The fruit of the Spirit is self-control, not crowd control. Too often in the past we have lived under the fear of ridicule instead of by faith and self-sacrificial love.

Paul's instructions in Romans 14 about not passing judgment on disputable matters applies here. Social drinking is a disputable matter, as evidenced by the very existence of this thread. At the very worst, it is an excuse to indulge the flesh as you point out below, however, at its very best, it is an exercise in developing self-control, which is a fruit of the Spirit and against such there is no law.

Those who see us need to learn not to judge another man's servant and those with freedom need to learn not to flaunt it before others to their potential harm.

C. Chris Moody wrote:
What happened to draw near to me and I will draw near to you? What happened to a life that promotes holiness and seeking that lifestyle. I am risking a lot here with my opinion, but why are we not discussing a life that seeks to please the spirit and not the flesh. I am very proud to say that my life has never had the influence of drugs or alcohol.


It's still there, Chris, but we must allow individuals to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ for themselves, being led by the Spirit for themselves, growing the fruit of the Spirit for themselves, instead of demanding that they march in a straight line in lockstep with everyone else in our "church".

I recently worked with a young lady who was very public about her faith in Jesus. She was not ashamed of Him or His Words. However, I was very upset personally when I had to attend a company dinner with her and other colleagues to entertain a prospective employee to our group. We went to a high priced restaurant in Fort Wayne, the kind where they don't print prices on the menu and if you have to ask you can't afford to eat there. This young lady, and everyone else at the table except me, ordered alcoholic beverages.

It felt bizarre to sit at that table and hear this woman and the employment candidate talk openly, without shame or hesitation, about their mutual faith as they drank mixed drinks. It upset me tremendously, turned my brain upside down, I couldn't understand it; but I was never tempted personally to drink an alcoholic beverage based on their behavior. Even though she violated my personal convictions, I had no right before God to judge her or her faith, or to condemn her in a selfish, self-centered manner.

C. Chris Moody wrote:
I do not consider myself an elitist. However, I will always believe abstinence is the closest biblical approach. Notice I said closest. Moderation is way too complicated. We are suppose to be leaders not followers.


Chris, you have said twice in this thread that teaching moderation is too complicated. Do you really mean complicated, or do you mean it takes more time and effort than we are willing invest to accomplish it? Please do not misunderstand my previous statement as a personal attack, it is not meant to be so.

Moderation can be taught as both an exercise in self-control and self-sacrificial love (when it involves considering the weak above yourself). Moderation is not complicated to teach, it is difficult to practice.

It is an exercise in self-control when we are willing to be humble and honest and ask ourselves what our personal motivations in social drinking are, and to lay it down if we discover, as you pointed out, that our real motives are to indulge our flesh and maintain our status in the eyes of others.

It is an exercise in self-sacrificial love when we learn we are in the presence of someone with a weak conscience, and that our freedom to exercise our liberty is of lesser importance than building others up for their own good.

C. Chris Moody wrote:
As far as our Pentecostal distinctive, I still believe tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That is what I believe to be our distinctive. This is the area that gets many squirming. Tongues is the initial...the beginning. That brings me back to dr. Hughes question what happened when you were baptized in the Holy Spirit? I am in no way stating tongues as some badge to wear of exclusivity. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is to make us witnesses.


Excellent approach and excellent question!
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Post Why? Purplebarney
Why do we always associate drinking alcohol with alcoholics and drunks? I can honestly say I've never been addicted to alcohol. Ever! In fact, I can go months without a drink. I simply don't need it. However, I love a glass or two of a nice Pinot or Cabernet with my meal. Not only does it complement the food it also relaxes me and that is personally rewarding. I understand some people have issues with alcohol and for those people I can say alcohol is wrong for them personally. But we cannot generalize this issue because to each his own. If I were around someone who I knew had issues with alcohol I can promise that I would lay down my personal preferences in consideration of that person who struggles with addiction.

As for the post by Mr. Henson, I wanted to explain my original post. I don't think every COG has services where people shout, dance, and interrupt a sermon with a message in tongues. I didn't mean to generalize my statement. I understand that there are many COG's who have orderly worship services so I apologize for that characterization.
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8/10/11 9:07 am


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Post John Stevenson
Great post from all sides! Very Happy Acts-celerater
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8/10/11 9:09 am


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Post Re: I'm With Chris On This MARK317
Lord Chancellor wrote:
It really doesn't matter who is with who or who votes for who's post or who agrees with which poster.

Consumption of alcohol is not a sin (although drunkenness is). Abstinence is wise, but not commanded nor required.

It is what it is. That's a fact and agreeing with someone who states otherwise doesn't change the fact.

It never will.

doyle wrote:

And though I don't personally feel the Bible mandates required abstinence but rather moderation, it's astounding to see that some in ministry just don't get it.

When a person enters the ministry, life is no longer totally about themselves and whatever liberty they may feel. Those we minister with and those we minister to become a major part of life's equation for the minister. We are no longer nearly as concerned about the personal liberties we may legitimately have, but in how we can live as examples of Christ in us.

......

If someone has a beer, it wouldn't bother me. There's more alcohol in some brands of mouthwash and cologne but to the people we serve, drinking represents a non-spiritual life, a product of the world out of which they were saved.

D


I think they do, in fact, get it.

The pastors/ministers on this forum who have correctly pointed out that drinking alcohol is, in FACT, not sin haven't done so because they want to drink alcohol.

In fact, just about every one who has spoken to that fact, has stated they abstain from alcohol.

It's not about "what we can do" or "how close we can get" or our own liberties or whatever else, because we're not arguing the point so that we can go buy a six-pack.

It's the principle of the matter. We have no right to enslave others (ANY others) with our own personal convictions and man-made, asceticistic, extra-Biblical rules and regulations. Paul wrote a few great chapters and even a whole epistle about this very thing.

It's amazing that some people do not get that.

When we exclude others because they do something that doesn't line up with our extra-Biblical traditions (smoke, drink- without drunkenness, wear make-up, jewelry or pants, etc), then we become nothing by an ignorant social club.

It's no surprise when someone is rightly pointing out that the Bible does not require abstinence and that drinking is not a sin, they get labeled as "drunkards," "drinkers," and "those who want to drink," (as has been done in threads in times past) out of ignorance at best and blatant dishonesty and deception at worst. They have to protect their club traditions and rituals, even at the expense of others and even at the expense of Biblical truth.

doyle wrote:

If someone has a beer, it wouldn't bother me. There's more alcohol in some brands of mouthwash and cologne but to the people we serve, drinking represents a non-spiritual life, a product of the world out of which they were saved.


And that's the North American church's fault. It clearly wasn't that way in the Bible (God gave wine to gladden the hearts of men) nor was it that way with the early church (or the Church throughout history until a couple hundred years ago). But, for so long, the church has taught such non-Biblical nonsense on the matter (drinking a beer will send you to hell) that a Biblically-illiterate society has accepted it as truth.

It's what happens when we preach falsehoods. We become enslaved by them.


God gladdens the heart of men today through His Spirit, not spirits. Why in the world would beer , wine be needed in of all places a Bible study? Wine was a representation / foreshadow of the true work of the Holy Spirit.
Any believer who is part of a group that has Bible studies and drinks beer at the same time, clearly are not looking to the Holy Spirit. Also, if one of them have an accident while driving home, some is going to have some explaining to do.
Also, you talk about moderation and not getting drunk. If you drink till your heart is merry, you are under the influence.
This is all part of a progression. Wine...Baptism of Holy Spirit.....and then that day we see Him face to face.
Of course this is my opinion. I notice you are very militant about it, so I guess I can be also.
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Post Eddie Robbins
Quote:
Why in the world would beer , wine be needed in of all places a Bible study?


Maybe wine for communion?

I would ask why fried chicken and sodas full of sugar and addictive caffeine would be needed in church as well. THAT is the point here. If you're going to live a holy, healthy and fit disciplined lifestyle, do it all. Don't just do the things that you are not tempted with and praise yourself (not you personally) for living holy.
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8/10/11 9:30 am


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Randy,

Not sure I follow the analogy here.

If a youth group member sees his youth leader having a beer - and Chris said how would the youth member not know it "was just one" - your "none of his business" reply is lacking.

I believe, as leaders, it is our business to lead.

I have never heard "none of your business" as a proper attitude at any leadership training I have ever attended.

jmho
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Post Kyle Morrow
I love it how the alcohol discussion always goes back to overeating. I'm overweight; I was born weighing 10 pounds. I've been fat my whole life. If the Bible said food was a mocker and I could live without eating, then I would practice total abstinence from food, but the Bible does say that about wine, and I can live without drinking, then I concur that total abstinence is the path to take.

Most of us probably personally know someone who has been killed by a drunk driver. I know of women who have been in the hospital because their husband came home drunk and beat them within an inch of their lives. I know kids who don't get Christmas or birthday presents because their parents blow all of their money on booze. What about alcohol makes us think that it is okay?
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Post In all respect to Ray Hughes . . . RedBackHymnal
. . . whom I admired greatly, it isn't his prerogative to teach a particular thing as scriptural, because he finds the error more easily enforced than the truth. If the Bible teaches moderation (which I believe it does), it is not our right to say that it teaches abstinence. We must say what scripture says, and not what we thing is easiest to enforce. Hey, DOC
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Post Eddie Robbins
Again, we tend to preach against the things we are not tempted with and let slide those things we are tempted with using excuses. I understand that. I did it for years until Romans 12:2 hit home with me and I became a new person. Until your mind becomes renewed, I don't ever expect anyone to change and honor God with their WHOLE self. I grieve for you. I pray that one day, your eyes will open to self discipline and treat this house that God has loaned us as the temple of the Holy Spirit. I am praying for you, Kyle. I love you and want to see you live longer than my Daddy did. Acts-pert Poster
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8/10/11 10:23 am


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Post Travis Johnson
What are the other cultural Christian directives that have nothing to do with Scriptural authority?

What causes us to make cultural and behavioral declarations that trump Scripture and even assigning cause for such prohibition to Scripture?

Who is comfortable adding declarations to the Scriptures in light of Deuteronomy 4:1-2 and Revelation 22:18-19:

Quote:
 1 Now, Israel, hear the decrees and laws I am about to teach you. Follow them so that you may live and may go in and take possession of the land the LORD, the God of your ancestors, is giving you. 2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you. DEUTERONOMY 4:1-2

 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. REVELATION 22:18-19
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8/10/11 10:26 am


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Post Mark317 Purplebarney
We're all having a discussion without name calling or blasting someone else's views.....then.....you come on here and make a statement like this.....

"Any believer who is part of a group that has Bible studies and drinks beer at the same time, clearly are not looking to the Holy Spirit. Also, if one of them have an accident while driving home, some is going to have some explaining to do. "


Really??? I'm not looking to the Holy Spirit? Pretty harsh words since you don't even know me. I can assure you that I follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit and I'm a full on Spirit filled believer!

And not to beat a dead horse but I agree with many on here when they say they're tired of people comparing a cold beer to being drunk. RIDICULOUS! For the five millionth time.....I drink alcohol and I'm not an alcoholic nor do I get drunk.....PERIOD!
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Post Bullseye77
Kyle Morrow wrote:
I love it how the alcohol discussion always goes back to overeating. I'm overweight; I was born weighing 10 pounds. I've been fat my whole life. If the Bible said food was a mocker and I could live without eating, then I would practice total abstinence from food, but the Bible does say that about wine, and I can live without drinking, then I concur that total abstinence is the path to take.

Most of us probably personally know someone who has been killed by a drunk driver. I know of women who have been in the hospital because their husband came home drunk and beat them within an inch of their lives. I know kids who don't get Christmas or birthday presents because their parents blow all of their money on booze. What about alcohol makes us think that it is okay?

Kyle, I too was born "large". 10 pounds 9 ounces. I have a propensity to be fat. I don't overeat. In fact, my wife marvels at how little I eat. There are days that I start at 4:30 in the morning and am unable to get anything to eat until the afternoon. I rarely eat dessert. I do not enjoy extremely rich foods, like cheesecake, pies and puddings. Yet, because of my appearance, I would be judged as an overeater by some. It is possible that some of those who do not wish to be judged because of having a beer or a glass of wine would judge me harshly. That seems to be a common affliction here. Each one judging the other for what they perceive as the right or wrong of a particular issue.
As to the alcohol issue, I am a total abstainer. Two reasons. One, I made a commitment when I joined the Church of God. Two, I believe the Holy Spirit has led me not to drink alcohol. There is actually a third reason. In my youthful days, my experience with alcohol made me violent.
To those who believe it is alright to take a drink, disassociate yourself from any previous commitments, like your commitment to the church, be aware of weaker brethren, be guided by the Holy Spirit, and drink on. Don't expect me to agree with what you do, but you are free and you can do as you please. I believe this is another of those "slippery slopes."
If you indulge, be aware of the consequences. If you do not indulge, but endorse, there are also negative consequences there.
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Post Bullseye77
Lord Chancellor wrote:
Bullseye77 wrote:
It is possible that some of those who do not wish to be judged because of having a beer or a glass of wine would judge me harshly.


Can you name one?

Bullseye77 wrote:

To those who believe it is alright to take a drink, disassociate yourself from any previous commitments, like your commitment to the church,


I have made a commitment to abide by the teaching of the Church of God.

Under the Section CHURCH OF GOD TEACHINGS in the Minutes, the Church of God declares that the New Testament is our only rule for faith, practice, government, and discipline.

Since that is the case, any rule that is contrary to Scripture is a rule I'm not obligated to follow, since I am committed to the Church of God teaching.

Sorry.

You can't kick us out because you don't like it that you're wrong.

LC, you sure are quick on the trigger. Be careful you don't shoot yourself in the foot. I said, "It is possible..." It may also not be the case. Did you miss that part?
Also, when I joined the Church if God, there was a prohibition on "the use of all liquor and strong drink." I remain committed to that.
Further, I am not interested in kicking anybody anywhere.
Finally, I have not stated that I am right and you are wrong. I have stated my personal opinion. I have not attempted to use Scripture to justify my path of life or to prove that you are on the wrong path.
It is alright for you to drink your occassional drink. Your belief that is it alright and your indulgence (if you do) are not nearly as great a problem as your obstinance and arrogance. Deal with these more important issues first.
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