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To poster "Isa 58:12": Regarding Galatians
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Post Isa 58:12
Link wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Paul used the "term" gentile to point out what "people" he was speaking about Link. He couldn't have said:

Acts 15:14
Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Jews a people for himself.

Acts 13:16
Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: "Men of Israel and you Jews who worship God, listen to me!

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Jews repentance unto
life."

See Link, Paul used the term "gentile" to reveal who he was talking about. Now in Messiah Paull wrote to the "gentiles" in Rom 9:4:Who are Y'sraelites (spiritual Ex 12:48) to whom pertains the "adoption", & the Glory, & the Covenants, & the giving of the Torah, & the service of G-d, & the promises.


I don't follow your point at all. Gentiles are partakers of the blessings of Abraham through Christ. But Paul is still talking about Israel in this book.

Yes "gentiles" (heathens) are now in the "Jewish" family (as one born in the land) of G-d & recieve all the Blessings of Avraham (who is the father of faith to the Jews 1st). Rom 9:4, we are "spiritual" Jews. Why would we be called heathens, gentiles the rest of our walk with G-d when He doesn't see it that Way? Very Happy I'm not a goyim, gentile I am now as 1 born in the land.... a Jew Very Happy , which means G-d Worshiper, G-d Praiser. Thats all I'm saying
Romans 11:25 (NIV)
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

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Post Link
Isa 58:12

You messed up the quote attributing your words to me in the last message, btw.

Etymology does not always determine meeting. 'Heathen' may come from a Greek word for 'nations.' But that doesn't mean all Gentiles are heathens, or that the Greek and English words mean the same thing.

'Sinister' comes from a Latin word for left-handed, but that doesn't make all left-handed people sinister. Not if we are speaking English.

The apostles referred to the Gentile believers as Gentiles. In fact, James built a theological point on the fact that God was calling a people for himself from among the nations. That is one reason the apostles understood that Gentiles did not have to be circumcised. Abraham is the father of many nations.
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Post Isa 58:12
Link wrote:
Isa 58:12

You messed up the quote attributing your words to me in the last message, btw.

Etymology does not always determine meeting. 'Heathen' may come from a Greek word for 'nations.' But that doesn't mean all Gentiles are heathens, or that the Greek and English words mean the same thing.

'Sinister' comes from a Latin word for left-handed, but that doesn't make all left-handed people sinister. Not if we are speaking English.

The apostles referred to the Gentile believers as Gentiles. In fact, James built a theological point on the fact that God was calling a people for himself from among the nations. That is one reason the apostles understood that Gentiles did not have to be circumcised. Abraham is the father of many nations.


LOL, yea, saw that I messed it up, sorry Very Happy & your right, heathens is another word for "nations". But what does that say for the people in those nations? Did you look @ the Hebrew & greek word for gentile?

Yes the apostes did refer to gentiles as believers in the letters depicting which group of people they were speaking of tat got "saved" & yes, James said that G-d was going to call a people for Himself. Outside of the Jews, who were they? Gentiles are not to be circumcised, because they are not of the Covenant that G-d made with Avraham & his seed. Are we not the seed of Avraham by Faith?

But once a "stranger" (gentile) partook of his 1st Passover (Y'shua, Lamb of G-d) They had to be circumcised Ex 12:43-45. Huh, I just thought of something.....

Gentiles don't have to keep the Torah of our Creator, the G-d of Y'srael because they are not saved, or part of the Covenant. Jews though do keep Torah. So do you see the problem? G-ds people do different things from the gentile world. The Book of Galatians is read with a gentile western mind set, not a Jewish mind set as was it was written in. Praise Adonai Very Happy
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Post Something to think about Isa 58:12
in the Book of Galatians. It is the excuse & is taught that Pauls letter does away with the Torah for the believer. But think about this: Why or how could our Creator who wrote His Torah for "His" people do away with it, whats the point?

& if that "is" the case then, all the problems, Judgments, & correction, etc that our Creator did to the children of Y'srael for breaking Torah in the wilderness was for nothing.

Does that make sense? Is that the G-d we serve, or is that the god that is presented? either Paul is wrong, or our interpretation of Paul is wrong.
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Post Re: Some thoughts... Isa 58:12
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Because the fulfillment of Torah had come in Jesus Christ

Because Torah is now written on our hearts...not tablets, scrolls or paper...by reason of the promise of the Spirit.

And you know....I just thought of something, perhaps we have a terminology issue in our discussion. Serious question: Do you think that people such as me who don't believe in "doing Torah" (in terms of the standard for ongoing righteousness)...are you of the opinion that we/they don't teach the law and the prophets (OT) as a valid life giving part of God's word? Because that is of course not true.

Really, the thought just hit me that you might think I/we don't teach from the OT and treat it every bit equal to the NT. (I know this sounds elementary...but it really just came to me that we might have more of a semantics issue than we do a theological issue)


Oh no Tom, I believe you/pastors "believe" that the O.T. is part of the N.T. But if people believe that the Bible is True from Gen 11:1 to Rev 22:21, but they don't do what it says. The Covenant is Re-newed in our hearts by Faith in Y'shua. You say we

So you agree that Torah is written on your hearts, so why don't we keep it? Did you read the other thread where I took the pm I sent you & wrote it out? That was just a quick example of what the Torah is. The problem is people don't know what the Torah is or whats in it. I have asked many, many people that tell me whats in the New Covenant.... & I get really nothing. When I ask what was in the Old Covenant, all I hear is sacrifices.

Our problem is that believers don't know what is in the 1st Covenant so they don't understand the 2nd New Covenant & replacement theology runs rampent in it.

& so your right, we do have a terminology issue in our discussion. Like I said my friend;
Quote:
either Paul is wrong, or our interpretation of Paul is wrong.
out of the Book of Gal
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Post Isaiah Tracy S Hamilton
I have been following this because of our past conversations and I like the questions that Tom has been posing.

You have basically said the same things over and over and over again without giving accurate scriptural support. It is like.... "let's make this thing as difficult as we can, that way I sound more spiritual."

THE GOSPEL IS NOT DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND!! Sorry for the all caps.

There was the Old Covenant and There is the New Covenant. That is plainly spelled out in scripture.

2 Corinthians 2:7-18 I can't believe I am going to post this much scripture but in this case It has to be done.

I am using the NLT.

7 The old way, with laws etched in stone, led to "death," though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses' face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was "already fading away." 8 Shouldn't we expect far greater glory under the "new way," now the Holy Spirit is giving life? 9 If the old way, which brings "condemnation," was glorious, how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God! 10 In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all campared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. 11 So if the old way, which has BEEN REPLACED, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever.

12 Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold.
13 We are not like Moses, who pout a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though is was "destined to fade away." 14 But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, "the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth." And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today, when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.

16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, "the veil is taken away.
17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us who have had their veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord -- who is the Spirit -- makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.


The law is holy but it will NEVER make us holy. The question that I have repeatedly ask you to answer and to which you never have...... is this: outside of Jesus Christ, name one person who met all the requirements of the law.

The reason and the purpose of the law was for one thing: to show people that they could never keep it, therefore showing them that they needed a savior. The law will never change a heart, only Christ can do that.

The law was about what man could do..... Grace is about what Christ has done. The law will always show you where you don't measure up. Grace let's us know that Christ did the measuring up for us.

Galatians 3:13: But Christ has rescued us from the CURSE pronounced by the law.

Galatians 3:19: Why, then, was the law given? If was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last ONLY UNTIL the coming of the child who was promised.

vs. 21 Is there a conflict, then, between God's law and God's promises? Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it. 22 BUT the SCRIPTURES declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God's promise of freedom ONLY BY BELIEVING IN JESUS CHRIST!!

I am not sure what part of these scriptures that you guys don't get. It is not difficult to understand. The law had a purpose and that purpose has been fulfilled through Christ.

AGAIN, I am with Tom, if someone wants to celebrate feasts as a part of their personal faith, for teaching, instruction, then there is absolutely no problem with that whatsoever, but it is when the attitude of spiritual superiority comes into play that someone how you are closer to God because you do those things, or that because you do them, it is because you are so much deeper in the Word than others, is when you place yourself back under the curse of the law, because you or no one else can keep it.


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Post Re: Isaiah Isa 58:12
Tracy S Hamilton wrote:
I have been following this because of our past conversations and I like the questions that Tom has been posing.

You have basically said the same things over and over and over again without giving accurate scriptural support. It is like.... "let's make this thing as difficult as we can, that way I sound more spiritual."

THE GOSPEL IS NOT DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND!! Sorry for the all caps.

There was the Old Covenant and There is the New Covenant. That is plainly spelled out in scripture.

2 Corinthians 2:7-18 I can't believe I am going to post this much scripture but in this case It has to be done.

I am using the NLT.

7 The old way, with laws etched in stone, led to "death," though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses' face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was "already fading away." 8 Shouldn't we expect far greater glory under the "new way," now the Holy Spirit is giving life? 9 If the old way, which brings "condemnation," was glorious, how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God! 10 In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all campared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. 11 So if the old way, which has BEEN REPLACED, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever.

12 Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold.
13 We are not like Moses, who pout a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though is was "destined to fade away." 14 But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, "the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth." And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today, when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.

16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, "the veil is taken away.
17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us who have had their veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord -- who is the Spirit -- makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.


The law is holy but it will NEVER make us holy. The question that I have repeatedly ask you to answer and to which you never have...... is this: outside of Jesus Christ, name one person who met all the requirements of the law.

The reason and the purpose of the law was for one thing: to show people that they could never keep it, therefore showing them that they needed a savior. The law will never change a heart, only Christ can do that.

The law was about what man could do..... Grace is about what Christ has done. The law will always show you where you don't measure up. Grace let's us know that Christ did the measuring up for us.

Galatians 3:13: But Christ has rescued us from the CURSE pronounced by the law.

Galatians 3:19: Why, then, was the law given? If was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last ONLY UNTIL the coming of the child who was promised.

vs. 21 Is there a conflict, then, between God's law and God's promises? Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it. 22 BUT the SCRIPTURES declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God's promise of freedom ONLY BY BELIEVING IN JESUS CHRIST!!

I am not sure what part of these scriptures that you guys don't get. It is not difficult to understand. The law had a purpose and that purpose has been fulfilled through Christ.

AGAIN, I am with Tom, if someone wants to celebrate feasts as a part of their personal faith, for teaching, instruction, then there is absolutely no problem with that whatsoever, but it is when the attitude of spiritual superiority comes into play that someone how you are closer to God because you do those things, or that because you do them, it is because you are so much deeper in the Word than others, is when you place yourself back under the curse of the law, because you or no one else can keep it.


Tracy


Tracy my friend, I could explain those verses very easily, but 1st, why don't you go over to the thread "Confronting exclusivism and not legalism in Galatians" & read my last comment. Then see how your theology of how you see your Scriptures fit into what the Bible says about Torah.

Because if you have been following this, you probably read it, or saw it but didn't read it. Because if you did I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have seen this comment there Very Happy . Because it dosn't fit Wink

Shalom Very Happy
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Post Ok Tom.. Isa 58:12
Quote:
What your statement actually implies is: "Either Paul is wrong or others that hold an opinion other than yours is wrong."
Paul certainly is not wrong of course...and I am not prepared to concede that the position I have asserted is wrong either at this point in our discussion.


Its not "my" opinion Tom, as I showed you, thats what scripture says about the Law. Did you read what I presented in the other thread? Because how do you answer all thoses Scriptures?

I put that up to show you the way Galatians & Paul is taught about the Law is not correct. & thats not my opinion, thats G-ds.

So how does the whole Book of Galatians do away with all that? So thats why I said:
Quote:
either Paul is wrong, or our interpretation of Paul is wrong.
So which is it?
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Post Nature Boy Florida
Tom,

Thanks for the extensive study in Galatians. And I appreciate Isa's input as well - I certainly agree with all the scriptures but also did not come to his/her conclusion.

I have learned something. I am finally able to put it all together thanks to your guidance.

Are you doing these Sunday mornings at church?
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Post Tom :) Isa 58:12
Quote:
I am currently teaching through Galatians...and I felt that a dialog with you would cause me to consider perspectives that I would otherwise not see. You have certainly done that. At this point I think our debate will become circular.


My friend, its not circular, I havent really even started in Gal yet. Adonai wanted me to show you just a small glipmpse of whatthe Law, Torah really is. Thats not circular, because its the Whole Bible as to those words are throught the O.T. & N.T.

Quote:
Note: I do teach the Torah always. It is a tutor...and the fullness is Christ.
I do not "do Torah," as a means of righteousness.


Yes Tom, we don't do Torah for Righteousness, Messiah is the GOAL for the Torah "for" Righteousness. But I know you know that by now. Remember to factor that Truth in when you read Gal Wink

Quote:
Last: The issue you bring up concerning my perspective invalidating the OT or Torah (my paraphrase of your words)... I think Paul handles that very clearly in Galatians 3:15-28. I agree with you that the New Covenant does not remove the Old...but Paul said that the Old (Mosaic) did not exempt the Abrahamic...and it was "by faith," and once again the fullness of that is now by "faith" in Christ alone.


The Avrahamic Covenant is one of "Faith", Avraham by Faith kept the Oral Torah before it was re-newed in stone in Gen 26:1-5. 5: Because that Avraham "obeyed" (Faith) My voice, & kept My Charge, My Commandments, My Statutes, & My Laws.

Gal 3:17-18: & this I say, that the Covenant that was confirmed of G-d in Messiah "," (comma) The Law (Jn 5:46 the Law wrote "confirmrd" of Him) which was 430 years after "cannot disannul", that it (Torah) should make the "Promise" (Faith) of non affect.

18: For if the inheritance be of Law (works) it is no more of "Promise" (Faith) But G-d gave it to Avraham by "Promise" (Faith verse 22).
Quote:


Thanks for the exchange. Having dialoged on two threads, I'm pretty certain as to reply again. AT this point there seems to be no way to get past the list of scripture you have assembled (all of which I have read here...and many other times I have observed other threads in which you have written). I get your point...I just don't come to conclusion...


Very Happy anytime, I hope with these threads Adonai will touch & reveal Truths about Galatians to many people here. As to your comment of having no way around all the Scriptures I've place here concerning what Torah is. That will come as you pray & study them out & see if they fit in what you have been taught concerning Gal Very Happy .

Quote:
Jesus did Torah...to fulfill it.


If you mean fulfilling it & removing it, what do you do with my list? Wink Study out the word "fulfill" in greek, its not what you think. I don't remember if I told you but, I placed a thread in the deep Bible study place about what Messiah fulfilled, Completed. You should read it, you'll like it Very Happy

Quote:
Anyway...I think we have probably squeezed all the juice out of this one that we can (at least for my part).


My friend, we haven't even got started LOL Laughing Ther is still MORE "jucie" (Truth & replacement theology Laughing ) to be squeezed out.

Quote:
I do have one question I keep forgetting to ask.
How to you keep Torah? You know, "do Torah," etc.?
Do you keep the festivals, eat the food, circumcision, etc.? (Serious question)


GREAT questions Very Happy 1. I keep Torah the best of my ability & knowledge of what Torah says. I only keep the ones that apply to me in any situation. I don't wory about the Laws concerning menstruation Laws for women, as they do not apply to me Very Happy I don't have to keep any farm Laws as I do not have one...yet. No sacrifices, High Priestley Laws, etc.

2. Yes sir, I keep the "L-rds" Feasts, Feasts in Hebrew is Moedim or "Appointed times", as the Sabbath is Lev 23:3. & as Matt 5:18 says since all is not "fulfilled" Wink & Col 2:17 says they are shadows of Things to come, etc. & just the fact thaour Creator said: These are My Feasts, keep them.

3. I eat to the best of my knowledge to eat kosher, no pork Embarassed , lobster, crab, shrimp, catfish, shark etc.

& 4. circumcision, that was a sign between him & G-d & his "seed" Gen 17. Are we not the seed of Avraham by "Faith"? Messiah Y'shua was circumcised on the 8th day Luke 2:21, & if He did, & we are His imitators (disciples) shouldn't we keep the same sign? Also, the circumcision is not a salvation issue, its keeping Torah 1 Cor 7:19. That was the pharisees problem in Acts 15:1, 5, 10, 24, Gal 2:4, 12, 6:12-13.

Shalom, Shalom
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Post Isa 58:12
Shalom Tom Very Happy I hope we are not done with Galatians...I have waited for 2+ years for this Very Happy
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Post Re: Tom :) Shane B. Stone
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Ther is still MORE "jucie" (Truth & replacement theology Laughing ) to be squeezed out.


Jucie? Must be like the way you spell L-rd either leaving out letters or spelling them dum. C eye can do it two?

Isa 58:12 wrote:
3. I eat to the best of my knowledge to eat kosher, no pork Embarassed , lobster, crab, shrimp, catfish, shark etc.


Well that stinks. No bbq. No seafood. What about Chicken of the Sea? I mean, it is tuna, but some people think of it as chicken, hence the name.
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Post Re: Tom :) Isa 58:12
Shane B. Stone wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Ther is still MORE "jucie" (Truth & replacement theology Laughing ) to be squeezed out.


Jucie? Must be like the way you spell L-rd either leaving out letters or spelling them dum. C eye can do it two?

Isa 58:12 wrote:
3. I eat to the best of my knowledge to eat kosher, no pork Embarassed , lobster, crab, shrimp, catfish, shark etc.


Well that stinks. No bbq. No seafood. What about Chicken of the Sea? I mean, it is tuna, but some people think of it as chicken, hence the name.


LOL, your crazy shane.... By the Way, G-ds dietary food menu does not stink. Its His, how could it stink? & what are your thoughts on Gal?
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Post Dave Dorsey
How do you reconcile your diet (which I assume you would state as mandatory for all believers -- please correct me if I am wrong) with Acts 10:9-16 and 1 Timothy 4:1-5?

Please try to avoid circular reasoning in your response. (i.e. do not state that these scriptures can not possibly mean what they very obviously mean because of this other scripture which you believe means thus and so)
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Post Re: Tom :) Shane B. Stone
Isa 58:12 wrote:
LOL, your crazy shane.... By the Way, G-ds dietary food menu does not stink. Its His, how could it stink? & what are your thoughts on Gal?


My thoughts on Galations....hmmm....

1. It's in the Bible.
2. It's in the New Testament
3. Paul wrote it.

There you go
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Post Isa 58:12
Dave Dorsey wrote:
How do you reconcile your diet (which I assume you would state as mandatory for all believers -- please correct me if I am wrong) with Acts 10:9-16 and 1 Timothy 4:1-5?

Please try to avoid circular reasoning in your response. (i.e. do not state that these scriptures can not possibly mean what they very obviously mean because of this other scripture which you believe means thus and so)


Dave I can answer very simply, & if you want you can start a new thread on it. But this thread is about "Galatians"... I only answered Toms question because this is his thread. But I just want to stay on topic.

Man I knew this would happen Laughing
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Post Oh, & by the Way Isa 58:12
Shane, thanks.... Laughing

But to Tom, I would love to hear how you are teaching Galatians. maybe we could go over your material? Or maybe you could just tell me what you see in Gal? This is very important, & I wouldn't want to lose the opportunity...

& anyone else, feel free to put in your imputs on what you have been taught or what you see in Galatians

Shalom
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Post Just can't resist so here goes Tracy S Hamilton
Tom,

What Isaiah is telling you is that anything that needs clarification, that obviously you just don't understand, just let him know and he will tell you everything you need to know.

All of us are just misguided and we really don't know how to read the scriptures. If we do read them, we just don't have the spiritual insight as to their "real" meaning.

I am so glad that God has sent just a few to really know the scriptures so they can tell us what they mean. And here I am, thinking that as a Pastor, God would speak to me...... but apparently I am wrong.

I'm sure your ministry will be more impacting in the lives of your people now that you have someone to tell you what the scriptures really mean.



Sorry, just couldn't resist when I saw what Isaiah responded back to you.



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Post Nature Boy Florida
And if you change the spelling of words or give different names than the ones the poster before has used - then you feel you are a lot smarter than everyone else - or a lot dumber - take your pick.
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Post Re: Just can't resist so here goes Isa 58:12
Tracy S Hamilton wrote:
Tom,

What Isaiah is telling you is that anything that needs clarification, that obviously you just don't understand, just let him know and he will tell you everything you need to know.

All of us are just misguided and we really don't know how to read the scriptures. If we do read them, we just don't have the spiritual insight as to their "real" meaning.

I am so glad that God has sent just a few to really know the scriptures so they can tell us what they mean. And here I am, thinking that as a Pastor, God would speak to me...... but apparently I am wrong.

I'm sure your ministry will be more impacting in the lives of your people now that you have someone to tell you what the scriptures really mean.



Sorry, just couldn't resist when I saw what Isaiah responded back to you.



Tracy


Thats not what I was saying Tracy...... Rolling Eyes Iron sharpens iron, & we ALL learn from each other. I just want to see what Tom was teaching that I might glean something from it guy Rolling Eyes
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem
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10/25/10 6:55 pm


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