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Rafael D Martinez

OK, I'll bite - to the Serpent Seed "people" here

Acts-dicted Posts: 7766 **5/19/06 5:41 am**

from another thread ..

roughridercog

You keep sayin' stuff like that...

Acts Mod Posts: 25306 **5/19/06 7:11 am**

and people will begin to think you're a preacher of the Word. Laughing

Good post!

DHDRabbi

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13684 **5/19/06 7:57 am**

The Bible? What does that have to do with it? I want to know about new revelations from modern-day prophets.

roughridercog

Now Rab...

Acts Mod Posts: 25306 **5/19/06 8:01 am**

tnfan

Member Posts: 46 **5/19/06 8:17 am**

sheepdogandy

RDM's challenge.......

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7298 **5/19/06 2:40 pm**

has yet to be answered.

WHERE is the BIBLE evidence???????

If you ain't got your ducks in a row.

You had better leave RDM alone.......
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wayne lee

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1300 **5/19/06 2:40 pm**

you've been invited to prove it biblically. as rsky pointed out, this isn't a COG issue. So give it up, I'd love to hear the biblical evidence. I have a teachable spirit and am willing to learn, as long as it's from the Bible.
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"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." - A. Sachs

If ignorance is bliss, then some of you folks are the happiest people around.

caseyleejones

I really dont think serpent seed belief is heretical, but I

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11791 **5/19/06 3:05 pm**

am not sure it can be proved by scripture either. I am open at this point.

Nature Boy Florida

I'm open minded

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16617 **5/19/06 4:14 pm**

One side can post scriptures outlining thier position, the other can do likewise.

I will judge for myself which one aligns with scripture.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today!

BlessedinMsTn

Bro. Martinez, a personal note and response to your challeng

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/19/06 6:06 pm**

First of all please let me say that I respect the work for God that you and your lovely wife do, I visit your site often and I endorse your ministry to people who are bound and your passion for truth and clarity.

I felt it necessary to state that as I want this board to truly know my Spirit in this response to your open challenge.... This will probably be the longest post Ive ever made.. I will try once and for all to at least convey my thoughts and what I have seen in the scriptures . . .There will be many who disagree with me and possibly a few who agree, in either case, I am not God nor do I know all Bible mysteries,, so I will be the first to say that I could be wrong in my thinking but please let me also say that after much study, prayer and thoughts I feel that I am correct in my thinking.. My religion is not based on this doctrine, just as it's not based on pre-trib or post trib . . . .

Now with all of that said, here we go.... I have not always believed the Serpent Seed doctrine. I grew up in the UPC where this doctrine is vehemently denied by the majority and secretly believed by the few. I denounced Serpent Seed just as all of you do all of my ministry and only changed in the last three years.

The main reason I denounced it was because it sounded so perverted to think that Eve had sexual relations with a snake . . . .and unfortunately this is the tone in which it is presented to the masses even on this board. However, in my study on the need for the virgin birth, I came across the scriptures that I will now reference.

In truth the virgin birth was a wonderful story to me but I never quite understood the necessity of it until I was told of the doctrine of original sin.

Now, here is were some of us separate. I do not believe the Bible is a book with everything written in Black and White, I believe there are some things hidden from the masses and revealed to the hungry. Ex; Jesus spoke to the masses but pulled his disciples away to teach them deeper truth.
I Cr 2:7 - But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

So yes, people accuse me of thinking there is a select few who will grasp this,, although that's not entirely true I do believe that there are people who are surface readers of the Word and others who devour the word, to those people much will be revealed.
Rev 2:17 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].

The hidden manna is whats given to those who are hungry.

So, why did Jesus have to be virgin born? Why did God disdain our first birth so much that we were born the ENEMIES of God as children? Why was Cain never mentioned as Adams Son? Why was Cain not in the lineage of Jesus Christ as the rightful eldest son of Adam? Why did God send the flood? Why will God PURGE the earth with fire? All of these questions prompted me to believe in the doctrine of original sin.

We all know that the word is symbols and types and shadows. In this understanding I come to believe that perhaps everything in the Genesis account had deeper meaning in them just as the accounts in Revelations and the parables of Jesus did.

The first thing that caused me to think this was concerning the Tree of Life. When I discovered in Revelations that the tree of life in Revelations was not a physical tree then I had to run this through the whole Word of God.
Rev 2:7 - To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Here we have the Garden of Eden recreated for the overcomers and they are eating from the same tree of life, and what are they eating? Fruit
Of course its not physical apples they are eating, it is spiritual fruit

We also know when Jesus said "the axe is laid to the root of the tree" that he is talking about men.
When the blind man was healed he saw "men as trees"

Therefore laying a series of patterns concerning the tree of life. We know that Jesus is the giver of life, the bread of life and the tree of life.

Now in reading the Genesis account of tree, we see a separation of trees. First we see a set of trees that were GOOD FOR FOOD but then there is a semicolon, a separation and we see that ALSO IN THE MIDST of the garden were placed two other trees (Now, if Revelations uses physical symbols such as Beast to represent governments, why can we not have the same God revealing great truths to us in the same way in Genesis?)

Gen 2:9 - And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Now, these trees were not mentioned among the trees of the ground that were good for food,,, this cant be ignored,, there is a separation of the trees . . .Now, we believe that these trees were actually the Lord Jesus Christ in a theophany and then of course the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was Satan,, this only bears to reason.

Now, God was a creator, Satan was not. God had created a perfect man and made him the God of this World, putting all things under his feet. Satan, in the plan of God had to enter this human race and pervert what God had created . . . .How did he do this? Well, he was more subtle than any beast of the field,,, he walked upright and he was so intellectual that he spoke the human language and reasoned in a sense that Eve felt they were compatible enough to at least hold conversations....

Now, Satan entered into this animal that we believe is the missing link between humans and apes,,,, scientist have always said that you can almost cross the seed of a human and an ape because their so close,, but there is a scientific missing link in the anatomy,, we believe this missing link was this animal who was beautiful,, and just as Satan entered the swing and possessed it, he enter into the beautiful Serpent and beguiled or seduced Eve into tasting the fruit of pleasure and enjoying the fruit of his loins.

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil

Here Satan and Eve is having a Lengthy conversation,, she is literally being seduced into believing that if she partakes of the fruit of pleasure that she will be like God . . . . .This is being stated today in many religions that you can reach such a sexual ecstasy that you become like God,, this lie is still being told in the world today

She falls into temptation and partakes of his fruit... She saw that it was good,,, she approached another man,, her husband and offered this same pleasure unto him... he by choice, not being deceived partook of her sin as a type of Christ that he might save her through his relationship with the Father....

Now notice upon completion of this sin,,, they did not cover their mouths,,,,,,, they immediately knew that they were NAKED,, they had a carnal knowledge of themselves that they never had and they were ashamed.... something more than apple eating had happened.....it was soo bad and such an offense that God himself roared into the Garden to address what Satan had done . . .. Now,, many of you believe that God came and cursed them because they disobeyed him,, not so,,, how many times do we disobey and God doesn't curse us for it,, he forgives us. . . .

why wouldn't God just forgive Eve and Adam, his precious children,, why didn't he let it serve as a warning to them.. after all they only ate an apple,, even God knows better than that,, because what Eve had conceived in her womb was the literal SEED of Satan and now the entire seedline of Gods sons would be corrupted by the sins of the flesh...

When man was created he was not subject to the flesh,, the flesh was subject unto him but now it all changed !!!!!!!!

Isn't it ironic that God cursed the woman's womb? Isn't it ironic he didn't curse her mouth for eating apples? Why would he be soo interested in her womb,, because he knew what was growing in her was horrible and he cursed it.....

Gen 3:14 - And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

If disobedience angers God such that he curses everything in sight, what a short tempered Father we have,, oh no,, he knew what was in her womb

He knew it soo much that he said these words:
Gen 3:15 - I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed ( I beg someone to tell me who the children of Satan are? Seed is children.... here God refers to Satan's children) and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

A war would begin between Cains sons and Adams sons . . . .

Now, We only have two accounts of Adam and Eve coming together in scripture but yet we have three sons... Cain, Abel and Seth,, where did the third son come from? Satan

Now Eve being deceived as the scriptures has said,, declared she had gotten a man from the Lord..... she told the truth as All life is from the Lord...

There are over 3200 documented cases where mothers have twins from different fathers who she has known within three days of each other... On NBC just the other night there was a case of a white couples having twins,, ONE BLACK and ONE WHITE

After Eve knew Satan,, she conceived,, he Fathered Cain... here's proof
I John 3:12 - Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

When God told Satan that his SEED would be at war with her SEED,, the exact meaning in its original language for SEED is )VIRILE SPERM

Seed in the Bible has always referred to children,,,, "I will make your SEED as the sand of the sea"

So Eve has two sons,, one is born evil... If he was a SON OF GOD as ADAM was then how could he have been born evil? How could he have been a murderer? Its simple, Jesus stated that Satan was a MURDERER from the beginning,,, so, like Father Like Son

Cain kills Abel,,,,,,, the only righteous seed of Eve . . . .Now notice that Eve means "Mother of all Living" for some reason ADAMS name doesn't mean "Father of all Living"

Adam has another son whose name is Seth,, and he is the REPLACEMENT of the SEED according to Gods Word.... notice THE seed,,, if Cain was the seed of Adam why must the SEED be replaced?

Even in Cains worship God rejected him, why? He was evil......

After this account Cain is sent away from the presence of the Lord,,, in all of the genealogies of Christ,,, CAIN is never mentioned as Adams SON,, but look who is . .. .

Luke 3:38 - Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.

WHERE IS CAIN? He was NOT the SON of Adam

Jesus stated that we MUST be born again? Why, we were born as sinners,, the sexual act was sin and not intended in the beginning... We were in the Garden only lower than God,, he created by the Spoken Word and all of Adams sons would have been created the same way, by the Spoken Word,,,,,,,,,

So,,, to be redeemed unto God,, their had to be a new race,, a new bloodline untainted by the Serpent, the Flesh

Therefore he found a virgin womb, a placenta to protect his second Adam from the bloodline of the Serpent,,,, and if this blood would remain pure it would be accepted as a sacrifice and Jesus would be the head of a new race of NEW CREATURES,,, he would stand as the political head of the redeemed and we would once again be restored unto our God as SONS and not BASTARDS,,, Redeemed by Love Divine

So this is why I believe in the doctrine of original sin,, if you choose not to believe it,, I respect you and when all is said in done trust we will see each other in heaven and then discuss how we might have been wrong about certain things,, until then

thank God that you are now part of that INCORRUPTIBLE SEED
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The Remnant are Returning. Foundations are being Restored. All Breaches are being Repaired. The Body of Christ is Rising!

Rafael D Martinez

what??

Acts-dicted Posts: 7766 **5/19/06 7:08 pm**

BlessedinMsTn

Rafael, I know you dont believe in a double standard

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/19/06 8:38 pm**

and I do not want this to get personal at all. However, for a man who loves to ask for scripture and verse you never addressed the ones I gave.. Not one time did you discredit the scriptures talking about the things of God being hidden and revealed to the overcomers . . .

You never addressed any verses that you claim I did not give,,, you never explained to this audience when the meaning of the word SEED changed in reference to Satan's Seed,, had it been translated more perfectly it would have been written Satan's Children....

You failed to negate the scripture that gives proof positive that Jesus is the tree of life in the paradise of God, Eden...

You never death with any of the scriptures where Cain is out of the lineage

You never dealt with how Cain was Evil if he came from the Son of Gods loins

You never gave a better reason with scripture as to why there had to be a virgin birth,, a birth WITHOUT sex

I'm sure you plan to get around to it,, I would just appreciate fairness,, you blow up text begging for SCRIPTURE AND VERSE as if I gave none,, don't you think its a double standard to ask a man for scripture and verse and he gives you twelve and you completely ignore them?
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The Remnant are Returning. Foundations are being Restored. All Breaches are being Repaired. The Body of Christ is Rising!

Rafael D Martinez

Re: Rafael, I know you dont believe in a double standard

Acts-dicted Posts: 7766 **5/19/06 10:08 pm**

coelestius

Re: I'm open minded

Friendly Face Posts: 128 **5/19/06 10:57 pm**

Open-minded?

There's a difference between open-minded and having so many holes in your head that when the wind blows, you hear flutes.

BlessedinMsTn

Ok, as gentleman let's try another tactic

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/20/06 8:21 am**

From your years of scriptural study you undoubtedly understand that many themes of the scripture, many doctrines are made up of an entire overview of the Word, not just one scripture...

What your asking me for is impossible Ralph and you know that, it is unfair in a debate to ask for one scripture that definitely proves anything . . .For example and Armenian can give you one scripture while the Calvinist can you give you one right behind it... so both sides reach throughout the whole of the word to try and create a perfect picture of the whole scenario /.. .

For example, there is no way you could PROVE the trinity in one scripture the first one you throw out, I throw out . . ."When you've seen me you've seen the Father" and we could go on and on all day . . . . . .So, I do believe you are being totally unfair in not allowing me to present the Serpent Seed doctrine with a plurality of scriptures and bringing these scriptures together to prove a point...

But here's what I would like to do . . .I would like to go through the scriptures that I did give and let you tear them to pieces for me... and then at least we will be dealing with some sort of scripture base.. Until now you have provided only ONE scripture to try and disprove this doctrine which sounds wonderful but does not do the job

You quoted the scripture stating Adam had sinned and through this one mans sin entered into the World . . .What you fail to tell the audience is that God saw Adam and Eve as the same person, ONE FLESH,, Remember? Flesh of my Flesh and Bone of my Bone,,,, Remember? These two are ONE . . . ..When Adam partook of her sin,,,, He is the one who was the head of the human race and when Eve SINNED and he joined himself unto her,, her sin was imputed to him,,, just as Christ never sinned but when he took us as his bride,, our sin was imputed unto him . . . . . .

You question my ability to preach the gospel if I don't agree with your reasoning,,, I would almost have to do the same if you didn't understand that Adam and Eve were ONE,, her sin was his sin.... Therefore through ONE MAN sin entered into the World,,,,,,,

So lets begin my list of scriptures and Ill let you tear them apart for me:
# 1 - Rev 2:7 - To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Now Rafael, you tell this board how this tree of Life is not Jesus Christ,,, and if it is Jesus here,,,, why was it not him in the Garden?

Would you please also tell us why,, if the Tree of Life was a person, then why wouldn't the tree of knowledge have been a person?

Ezekiel 31: To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the tree of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with [them that be] slain by the sword. This [is] Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.

To whom are thou like --- The original word is DAMAH - meaning TO RESEMBLE - Which one of those trees did Pharaoh resemble????

Here God is saying of Pharaoh that he is like a certain tree in Eden,,, anyone wanna take a guess at what tree he is speaking of? SATAN . . and yet he shall be brought down like this TREE WAS

Rafael, destroy this for me,,,,, give me ONE SCRIPTURE that disproves these two trees were not seperate from the trees that were good for food.

Lets continue:
Gen 3:15 - I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed

Rafael give us on scripture where the seed is not children when referring to physical anatomy?

Here is the exact meaning of this seed lest there be any wondering?
ZERA

offspring

a) a sowing
b) seed
c) semen virile
d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children

Now, you tell us who Satan's CHILD or SEED was and I will listen.

We only have TWO Bible accounts of Adam and EVE coming together sexually, yet we have THREE sons . . . .Ill let you take a shot at it

Next Scripture for you to tear apart for us:
I John 3:12 - Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous

The word OF means in its original EK - meaning - OUT OF

Now you tell this community out of all the Bible Characters much worse than Cain,,, why would John tell his audience that CAIN,, he mentioned no one else,,, but CAIN came OUT OF SATAN?

We know he wasn't referring Adam because Adam was the Son of God, he was not evil as he was created by the Spoken Word which is the original seed,, he wasn't born by sex and he was not EVIL

Luke 3:38 - Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.

Please tell this audience where CAIN IS? IN all of the genealogies, not just this one,, Cain is never mentioned as Adams SON?

Is this just coincidence Rafael? Now please don't use the lame line that so many others have that Cain disobeyed God and was removed from the lineage . . How can that argument stand? Adam was the first to disobey and he wasn't removed . . . .Besides no matter how one sins spiritually it doest chance the natural lineage... If the Bible is perfect, I believe it is then CAIN the eldest son of Adam (if he were) would have been listed... Why did all the gospel writers forger Cain in their genealogies???? THEY KNEW THE TRUTH,,, that he was OUT OF SATAN,, NOT ADAM

I Peter 1:23 - Being born again, ( Why must we be born again? because in our sexual birth we were born the ENEMIES OF GOD according to Paul) not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The word incorruptible here is aphthartos, simply meaning uncorrupted... so I ask how did the original seed become corrupted???? by Satan
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www.thevaughnfamily.org
The Remnant are Returning. Foundations are being Restored. All Breaches are being Repaired. The Body of Christ is Rising!

caseyleejones

hey blessed, one thing I realize when approaching a topic

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11791 **5/20/06 10:43 am**

such as this, one must be open-minded. Do remember, culture, religion, denomination tend to 'interpret' the bible for us. Those things I tried to leave out.

However, I actually do see credence into what you are saying. Especially where Genesis talks about the seed of the two. However, there is some speculation in some of your logic as well.

On the other hand, there are no scriptures that would make this teaching heretical or at the very least disprove it. Does it go against the tenants of our faith? I dont think so. However, if someone says it does please show it.

BlessedinMsTn

Caseylee,,, lets talk about the speculation

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/20/06 2:10 pm**

Thanks for being open minded enough to at least examine the scriptures with me,, I have always appreciated your non-combative tones in these discussions

I would like the opportunity to address the speculations you feel that I have made and if possible perhaps I can bring scripture into the supposed speculation....

It works best for me to give a bulleted list of the certain thoughts where it seems I am speculating... so I can address them in a bulleted list for easy reading.
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www.thevaughnfamily.org
The Remnant are Returning. Foundations are being Restored. All Breaches are being Repaired. The Body of Christ is Rising!

Tim Finlayson

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1101 **5/20/06 2:54 pm**

Blessed,
I am not sure that I can accept what you are teaching. But, I do appreciate the tone and the spirit of your post.

I do see where you have drawn your conclusions and I believe other things in the Word based on much less information than you have provided.

I thank God that you are a brother in the Lord that fellowships on this board.

caseyleejones

I kind of thought the same thing...

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11791 **5/20/06 3:13 pm**

BlessedinMsTn

Amplified, thanks so much for your post

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/20/06 5:23 pm**

I appreciate very much the voice of reason and at least someone who doesn't call me a heretic and act like I'm a pervert because of believing this doctrine..

Also, Casey,, thanks for your post again . . .Let me say that Adam and Eve had probably many many children.. However in the law of genealogies the eldest or first son is always mentioned in the lineage..... Since Abel was killed if Cain was Adams son then he MUST be mentioned,,, However, it is always Seth that is mentioned

Thanks for the interesting dialogue . . .

Also, please note, someone said they wouldn't be dogmatic about this doctrine since it doesn't apply to salvation.... I couldn't agree more,, anytime this conversation has ever come up I HAVE NEVER authored it, NEVER,, I have only responded in kind . . .

In my eyes, this does not effect salvation but for me it more beautifully explains salvation,, the need for salvation,, what happens in salvation and finally it gives a clean understanding of why we had to have the blood of one of Adams Sons who had not been tainted by the corruptible seed of sexually driven man...... He was born of that incorruptible seed which is the Spoken Word

God Bless
_________________
www.thevaughnfamily.org
The Remnant are Returning. Foundations are being Restored. All Breaches are being Repaired. The Body of Christ is Rising!