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 Re: Ok, as gentleman let's try another tactic |
Toby |
Blessed I am like Rafael I would like to see where the Bible backs up your belief in this. In reading your post you have raised several questions as to where you are getting your information and what you are basing your belief on.
I know that I am probably the least qualified on this board to get involved in a Biblical discussion but if you will indulge me I would like discuss it with you please. Lets reason together using the word od God.
You ask Rafael To start with. So I will start with this.
[quote=
So lets begin my list of scriptures and Ill let you tear them apart for me:
# 1 - Rev 2:7 - To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. [/quote]
It is true that Jesus is symbolized in many different ways in the Bible but I must ask which translation of the Bible you are using, chapter and verse that symbolizes Jesus as the tree of life? I can find no scripture that refers to Jesus or any individual as the tree of life or a tree of knowledge.
As far as Rev. 2:7 it isn’t referring to Jesus as the tree of life but in reference to the trees of life in the paradise of God latter mentioned in Rev. 22:2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. Rev. 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
I find no scriptural reason to believe that the tree of life or the tree of knowledge in the garden of Eden were anything but trees. As God refers to them Gen 2:9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 3:22-24 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
2nd. As for Cain not being in the genealogies of Christ in Luke 3:38 is because as in all genealogies only the individuals that are in the linage are mentioned. Christ came through the line of Seth not Cain.
If you use this reasoning then you must conclude that all these men mentioned in this passage only had one son because that is all they are credited with here.
3rd. As for Eve being pregnant before she had a sexual relationship with Adam. The scripture is very plain and to the point about when she conceived Cain and who the father was. Gen 4:1 Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man.” 2Later she gave birth to his brother Abel.
The sensible conclusion here would be that Cain and Able were twins. That is why there is only one act of sex and two births.
By the way would you please tell us where you got your statistics on twins being sired by different fathers?
Quote: There are over 3200 documented cases where mothers have twins from different fathers who she has known within three days of each other... On NBC just the other night there was a case of a white couples having twins,, ONE BLACK and ONE WHITE
You are mistaken about the Black and White twins being half sisters. They are full sisters having the same father and mother. From the Daily mail “Both Kylie Hodgson and her partner Remi Horder, 17, are of mixed race. Their mothers are both white and their fathers are black. For a mixed-race couple, the odds of either of these scenarios is around 100 to one. But both scenarios can occur at the same time if the woman conceives non-identical twins, another 100 to one chance.
This involves two eggs being fertilized by two sperm at the same time, which also has odds of around 100 to one.
If a sperm containing all-white genes fuses with a similar egg and a sperm coding for purely black skin fuses with a similar egg, two babies of dramatically different colours will be born.
The odds of this happening are 100 x 100 x 100 - a million to one.”
This is getting long so I will reserve the rest for another time. I am looking forward to your response and scriptures.
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Toby
I'm just so proud to be here! |
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Posts: 465
5/20/06 6:10 pm
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| Re: Amplified, thanks so much for your post |
Toby |
| BlessedinMsTn wrote: |
Also, Casey,, thanks for your post again . . .Let me say that Adam and Eve had probably many many children.. However in the law of genealogies the eldest or first son is always mentioned in the lineage..... Since Abel was killed if Cain was Adams son then he MUST be mentioned,,, However, it is always Seth that is mentioned
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Blessed with all due respect I believe if you do a study of the genealogy of Christ in Luke 3 you will find the mention of the oldest son does not hold true.
If this was true then Isaac would not follow Abraham.
Jacob would not follow Isaac.
Judah would not follow Jacob.
Perez would not follow Judah.
David would not follow Jesse.
Nathan would not follow David.
God Bless
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Toby
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Posts: 465
5/20/06 6:44 pm
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| Toby, thanks for the opportunity |
BlessedinMsTn |
to finally have a real discussion on this subject matter, I found your post to be well thought out and I enjoyed reading it... I will attempt now in good faith to answers the questions you posed to me . . .
Concerning Revelations 2:7 - Are you saying to us that you believe if after we have gone through all of this hell on earth that our reward will be to eat apples and oranges?
I'm sure that you know the symbols of Revelations and hardly ever can you take the figures literally.... you must at least acknowledge that in Revelations a tree is not always a tree and a beast is not always a beast... you must leave room to reason the possibility that Jesus Christ, the giver of life,, is represented here as the TREE OF LIFE... I mean, really Toby,,, it is much easier for me to believe that this represents Christ than it does a literal Tree . . . . .Alas,, are you saying that this tree was plucked up by the roots and transplanted to heaven,, roots and all? Because the Bible says this tree was in EDEN,, the PARADISE OF GOD,, which we all know that the new Earth will be just as Eden...
You and I really have no where to go here as neither of us can prove without a doubt what this tree is ,. . . .but in using the symbols it is almost too simple to miss that Jesus Christ came to GIVE LIFE,,, he is LIFE, he is the root of life,, and therefore he is the TREE OF LIFE,, and if we overcome we will partake of him,,, not some apple tree where we millions of us try to gather round and get the fruit off of it... I mean come on,, does this really need arguing?
If that's not enough, then please explain to me what God was saying about Pharaoh when he compared and said he resembled one of the TREES of EDEN,,,
Exe 31:18 - To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the tree of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with [them that be] slain by the sword. This [is] Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.
The nether parts of the earth? Gehana, who was these parts prepared for? SATAN,, the TREE OF EDEN . . .Pharaoh was being compared here to SATAN
How can anyone not see this? The answer to that question is scary
You said and I quote " I can find no scripture that refers to Jesus or any individual as the tree of life or a tree of knowledge."
When Jesus said the axe was laid to the root of the tree,, it was MEN
When the blind man saw trees walking it was MEN
Trees planted by the rivers of water are MEN
Many references to men being trees . . . .and many references to Jesus being the giver of life,,, THE LIFE,,, the bread of life,,,, so why would it seem strange to you that he isn't the tree of life
It would be like us having this argument if I called Jesus the Bread of Life,, and lets suppose that exact verbiage wasn't in the Word but it made sense to refer to him as the BREAD OF LIFE,, and you came on here and said "show me where he is called the Bread of Life" I mean it would be a question without Reason,, because he is the TREE OF LIFE
I will use your scripture reference:
Rev. 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city
I ask you, WHO IS THE TREE OF LIFE that we will have a right to partake of??? This question begs an answer / / / /it is the same TREE that was in the paradise of GOD,, EDEN
Jesus told us who the manna was in the wilderness "
Our fathers eat manna in the wilderness."...
And He said, "And they're every one dead. But I am the Bread of Life that come from heaven. If a man eat thereof, he shall never die." He was that Tree that was in the garden of Eden.
"He that eats My flesh and drinks My Blood has Everlasting Life." He is the Tree of Life
The Holy Spirit guarded the Tree of Life until the Atonement was made, and now the Holy Spirit is running the people to the Tree of Life. The Holy Spirit was guarding it; now--now It's bringing them to It, and they refuse to hear the Holy Spirit's voice, because the same adversary that caused them to sin in the beginning is keeping them away from the Tree of Life. And Jesus Christ is the Tree of Life.
St. John Chapter 6 'I'm the Bread of Life that come from God out of heaven"?
When Jesus was hanging on the tree,, he will showing himself again to be the tree of life . . . Oh My what a thought
This tree of life is actually blooming in the believer now, The Tree of Life is blooming in them. They have long-suffering, gentle, goodness, patience, faith--faith--faith, meekness, gentleness, and so forth. The Tree of Life is blooming in them because their hope is anchored in Christ Jesus, the witness of the Holy Ghost bearing record with signs and wonders following....
Can anyone not say that this TREE OF LIFE is our LORD JESUS
Here's a beautiful thing. The Tree of Life is mentioned three times in Genesis, three times in Revelation. The first time it was mentioned in--in Genesis was in Eden, and Christ was the Tree. The three times it was mentioned in Revelations, was Christ in paradise
How can you continue to not believe that this tree of life, is JESUS
"He that heareth My Words and believeth on Him that sent Me has Eternal Life, and shall never come into the judgment, But passed from death unto Life."
How can this be? BECAUSE HE IS THE TREE OF LIFE
Surely you understand that you and I are the LEAVES of this tree , , ,
We bear the life of the root,, we are the outward examples of the inward root that cant be seen by man,, and we are for the healing of the nations
NOW concerning the lineage of Jesus and Cain not being in that lineage:::
I must tell you that you have given nothing here,,, my whole point is WHY WASN'T CAIN in the lineage.... He was the eldest son of Adam wasn't he? If he was then he HAD TO BE in the lineage unless of course he wasn't Adams Son
Now you asked where I got my statistics about twins from different Fathers, I will gladly oblige... and bye the way,, it was found that the story on ABC concerning the twins,,, the mystery has been solved in the update,,,, the DNA did not match from the second daughter,, the wife confessed to an affair with a black man . . .We've been preaching this for years that this can happen
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Ok, he res the statistics
http://health.ivillage.com/gyno/gynoreprohealth/0,,4nmw,00.html
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Here a doctor was asked it is possible for twins to have different fathers:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_213.html
Not only is it possible for fraternal twins to have different fathers, it has actually happened. There's even a medical term for it: superfecundation. The classic case, which is discussed in Williams Obstetrics (1980), was recorded in 1810 by John Archer, the first doctor to receive a medical degree in the United States. According to Archer, a white woman who had sex with a black man and a white man within a short time subsequently gave birth to twins--one white, one mulatto. Other cases have been reported since.
Superfecundation is possible because fraternal twins result from two separate eggs fertilized independently. Some think it happens fairly often, but until recently it was difficult to prove, due to the crudeness of the traditional testing method, which involved comparing blood types. In 1978, however, Dr. Paul Terasaki of the UCLA School of Medicine reported in the New England Journal of Medicine that he and his colleagues had conclusively established a case of superfecundation using a sophisticated procedure called tissue or HLA (human leukocyte antigen) testing. This technique can also be applied to more conventional cases. Prospective paternity-suit litigants, take note.
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A woman asked her doctor this question:
Dear Dr. Greenfield,
I have just had twins... They are fraternal, and I was just curious what the likeliness is of them having separate fathers if I was with two different men within a three to five day period. Please help
Here is his answer,,,,, http://www.drspock.com/faq/0,1511,8657,00.html
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DNA Paternity Test Reveals Twins With Different Fathers
Cincinnati, OH. U.S.A. December 13, 2005 — DNA Diagnostics Center (DDC), a leading DNA testing company, reports several cases of twins that DNA paternity testing proved to have different fathers. Such occurrences, although rare, are being more frequently revealed via DNA testing.
Ok, Ill stop here but this is only FOUR out of 921,000 returns on GOOGLE
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A woman can be with one person and another person three days later and have twins in the same womb from different fathers,,, I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, but its true
Just as Eve was impregnated,,, she conceived,, she offered the fruit of pleasure to ADAM,, and she conceived with ONE CHILD already in her womb,,,, this that child EVIL the other GOOD
God BLess
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The Remnant are Returning. Foundations are being Restored. All Breaches are being Repaired. The Body of Christ is Rising! |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6126
5/20/06 7:44 pm
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| Toby to answer your question about the geneologies |
BlessedinMsTn |
the term "son" is also used to mean "grandson" or an even more remote descendant (1 Ki 19:16;. 2 Ki 9:2, 14, 20; Mt 1:1, 8; cf. 1 Chr 3:11, 12). Thus, there are skeleton genealogical lists in which only the more important ancestors are mentioned, with the gaps bridged by the word "son" as if each person in the list were the immediate descendant of the one previously named (see Ezr 7:1–5;1 Chr 6:7–9; Mt 1:8, 11; cf. 1 Chr 3:10–12, 15, 16). Furthermore, by the levirate ("husband’s brother") marriage law, the next of kin was required to marry the widow of a deceased person and provide him with a successor and heir (Deut 25:5–10; cf. Ruth 2:20; Ruth 4:5, 10, 13, 14; Mt 22:23–2 . Thus, a person could be the actual son of one man and yet be referred to as the son of another.
In the sons of Adam,, the first son is mentioned, SETH
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The Remnant are Returning. Foundations are being Restored. All Breaches are being Repaired. The Body of Christ is Rising! |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6126
5/20/06 7:53 pm
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| Blessed |
Toby |
Now you asked where I got my statistics about twins from different Fathers, I will gladly oblige... and bye the way,, it was found that the story on ABC concerning the twins,,, the mystery has been solved in the update,,,, the DNA did not match from the second daughter,, the wife confessed to an affair with a black man . . .We've been preaching this for years that this can happen
Please post this news report. I have not been able to find it. Her husband is black.
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Toby
I'm just so proud to be here!
Last edited by Toby on 5/20/06 9:03 pm; edited 2 times in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 465
5/20/06 8:39 pm
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| Re: Toby to answer your question about the geneologies |
Toby |
| BlessedinMsTn wrote: | the term "son" is also used to mean "grandson" or an even more remote descendant (1 Ki 19:16;. 2 Ki 9:2, 14, 20; Mt 1:1, 8; cf. 1 Chr 3:11, 12). Thus, there are skeleton genealogical lists in which only the more important ancestors are mentioned, with the gaps bridged by the word "son" as if each person in the list were the immediate descendant of the one previously named (see Ezr 7:1–5;1 Chr 6:7–9; Mt 1:8, 11; cf. 1 Chr 3:10–12, 15, 16). Furthermore, by the levirate ("husband’s brother") marriage law, the next of kin was required to marry the widow of a deceased person and provide him with a successor and heir (Deut 25:5–10; cf. Ruth 2:20; Ruth 4:5, 10, 13, 14; Mt 22:23–2. Thus, a person could be the actual son of one man and yet be referred to as the son of another.
In the sons of Adam,, the first son is mentioned, SETH |
Blessed you are playing with this. The sons I mentioned were the sons of the fathers mentioned not the first born. The Levirate law does not apply.
The reason they were mentioned was they are the ones that the linage was through.
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Toby
I'm just so proud to be here! |
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Posts: 465
5/20/06 8:43 pm
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| Blessed I asked for a scripture that symbolizes Christ |
Toby |
as the tree of life. You haven’t given me one.
Jn. 6 symbolizes Him as the bread of life no more no less. So now I ask again where is a scripture that states He is the tree of life.
Buy the way the fruit of the tree of life is not apples or oranges.
We ask for scripture you give us nothing.
I used the scripture Gen. 4:1 you never discussed it. Why?
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Toby
I'm just so proud to be here! |
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Posts: 465
5/20/06 8:58 pm
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| Toby youve got to be kidding me,,, |
BlessedinMsTn |
I spent what seemed like forever proving the Jesus is the tree of life . . . .
You evidently did not read one thing I wrote, how disheartening after trying so hard to bring so many scriptures concerning Jesus being the tree of life...
I love how you say I didn't deal with Genesis 4,,, you didn't address ANY of my scriptures,, NONE, NOTTA, NOTHING...
You had no answer concerning which Tree Pharaoh was representing . . .Oh MAN this is sad. . . .
Jesus told them,, any man that eats of me,, shall have eternal life
I love how you admitted that the fruit of the tree of life isn't apples and oranges,, we do agree on that,,, I would love to hear what those fruit are then. . . .
And you know what else I love Toby,,, you made it sound as if I had no proof of women having twins from different fathers, you even seemed to suggest that it wasn't true.,,,,, when I post 921,000 links for you,,, you say NOTHING
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The Remnant are Returning. Foundations are being Restored. All Breaches are being Repaired. The Body of Christ is Rising! |
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Posts: 6126
5/20/06 9:48 pm
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| Alright, let's set it up again .. |
Rafael D Martinez |
| BlessedinMsTn wrote: | | From your years of scriptural study you undoubtedly understand that many themes of the scripture, many doctrines are made up of an entire overview of the Word, not just one scripture... |
Yes, I do recognize that, Blessed. You are right in that many doctrinal positions do come from Scriptures that support one another in a coherent and consistent presentation of truths that are self-evident in each verse which proclaim and present a truth claim.
However, Blessed .. as I have said, I believe that your allegorical system of interpretation on the texts you've cited thus far is where you are basing your belief in this doctrine .. it is your reckoning of metaphors and symbols along with a selective framing of them based on your line of reasoning that is really what your doctrine is based upon. You are expecting me to accept this as Scriptural truth.
Brother, I have to keep insisting .. they are NOT the same, but you keep insisting they are. And THAT is my point.
From the get go, I have asked for verses and chapters that explicitly tell me that the Serpent had sexual relations with Eve and that as a result of this twisted coupling, two kinds of people came into being. I have laid down a rigorous standard, but one which shouldn't be too hard to deal with - show us the chapter and the verse that EXPLICITLY present some clear indications of this unbelievable doctrine which you hold forth as if some lost spiritual nugget.
You are not doing so. You've been proclaiming these convictions and citing Scripture verses that I simply do NOT see as having ANYTHING to do with it, unless we simply assume that allegorizing perspective you think we must have to understand this "hidden truth."
See, that's the language barrier we are butting heads against. You see a verse and say truth A is there. I see a verse and see a truth B.
| Quote: | | What your asking me for is impossible Ralph and you know that, it is unfair in a debate to ask for one scripture that definitely proves anything . . . |
First of all, Blessed, I didn't get on here to debate. I simply set forth a direct request for Biblical proof of this doctrine. You've quoted verses that provide virtually no evidence for it. The proof, according to you, has to be inferred from the types and shadows you say are there behind them. My objection to this isn't debate .. my requests were to keep this within the firm bounds of clear Scriptural proof. You've not given any yet.
But stop right there. Did you hear what you just said? That a single verse of Scripture can't definitely prove anything? Just what exactly do you mean by that?? That God's Word cannot say to us just what He means us to know?
The inference you make here really takes one's breath away. Again, you may not like what I'm saying here .. but I cannot believe the skewed logic you are displaying here. What kind of reasoning is THIS?
| Quote: | For example and Armenian can give you one scripture while the Calvinist can you give you one right behind it... so both sides reach throughout the whole of the word to try and create a perfect picture of the whole scenario /.. .
For example, there is no way you could PROVE the trinity in one scripture the first one you throw out, I throw out . . ."When you've seen me you've seen the Father" and we could go on and on all day . . . . . .So, I do believe you are being totally unfair in not allowing me to present the Serpent Seed doctrine with a plurality of scriptures and bringing these scriptures together to prove a point. |
We're not arguing either of these. Stick to the subject.
| Quote: | | But here's what I would like to do . . .I would like to go through the scriptures that I did give and let you tear them to pieces for me... and then at least we will be dealing with some sort of scripture base.. Until now you have provided only ONE scripture to try and disprove this doctrine which sounds wonderful but does not do the job. |
OK, Blessed .. let's get back to the Word and establish the text. That's been the problem all along ..
| Quote: | | You quoted the scripture stating Adam had sinned and through this one mans sin entered into the World . . .What you fail to tell the audience is that God saw Adam and Eve as the same person, ONE FLESH,, Remember? Flesh of my Flesh and Bone of my Bone,,,, Remember? These two are ONE . . . ..When Adam partook of her sin,,,, He is the one who was the head of the human race and when Eve SINNED and he joined himself unto her,, her sin was imputed to him,,, just as Christ never sinned but when he took us as his bride,, our sin was imputed unto him . . . . . . |
Blessed, it has been your point of defining the sin of mankind as having been embodied in a primal perversity in which Satan had sex with Eve. YOU have read that disgusting concept into the text .. not I. I cited the verses in Romans 5:12-19 to make very clear through apostolic teaching that it was the DISOBEDIENCE of Adam and Eve that brought the fallen state of man we all labor under. Read Paul's epistles carefully again and you cannot fail to note each and every time that where this state of fallenness is mentioned, the apostle points to "one man" or the "natural man" .. that is a reflection of the patriarchal mindset of Paul - the Hebrew of the Hebrews - that focused almost exclusively upon male lineage when contrasting man's fallen state and Christ's redemption.
If Eve's sin was so onerous, so defiling, so fraught with eternal consequences, why does Paul instead point to the disobedience which the Genesis accounts plainly refer to as Adam and Eve's eating of the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
That gets right back to the point of this whole post - where is the Scripture that CLEARLY proves without ANY reliance upon some sage commentary that Eve laid out in the bushes somewhere and copulated with this beautiful thing you liken to a "missing link".. and then lured Adam into a similar nest of sin? WHERE?
| Quote: | | You question my ability to preach the gospel if I don't agree with your reasoning,,, I would almost have to do the same if you didn't understand that Adam and Eve were ONE,, her sin was his sin.... Therefore through ONE MAN sin entered into the World,,,,,,, |
I think you are a godly and earnest man, Blessed. I think you love God and want to serve Him. But that cannot lead me to conclude that these noble impulses which I do believe are in you guarantee that you've arrived at Biblical truth. In fact, what I am questioning is how sound a foundation for those you are feeding in the name of God actually is. The fall of mankind is the ultimate tragedy and the singular event that forever changed all of our lives. I take this more seriously than you can possibly imagine. It's where all Christian preaching has to take us through and beyond. That's why this novel doctrine you set forth that directly addresses it is one that, if true, requires our most profound discernment.
| Quote: | So lets begin my list of scriptures and Ill let you tear them apart for me:
# 1 - Rev 2:7 - To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Now Rafael, you tell this board how this tree of Life is not Jesus Christ,,, and if it is Jesus here,,,, why was it not him in the Garden?
Would you please also tell us why,, if the Tree of Life was a person, then why wouldn't the tree of knowledge have been a person? |
Frankly, Blessed, you so well highlight the great gulf betwixt us .. Thanks for the opening. And we're going to sit right here and deal with this point first before we go hopscotching across this matrix of proof texting you set forth.
Here you are citing a belief that you assume is common knowledge, that Christ IS the tree of Life in the Garden of Eden and that Satan, then by implication, is also a tree of knowledge. All of this is supposed to be spelled out here in the verses referring to the existence of these two trees in the Garden? Sorry to rock your world, Blessed, but that belief is nothing I've heard proclaimed as Biblical doctrine anywhere else but HERE, out of your own teaching ..and among the Serpent Seed true believers elsewhere ..
I have never heard of Christ being referred to as the tree of Life. I have never heard of Satan being called the "tree of knowledge." The Bible speaks of Jesus being the Bread of Life .. not a tree of Life. Believe it or not. You and your SS believers are the only people I've heard of who explicitly describe Christ and Satan in this manner. This is a novel interpretation you are inserting into this discussion that completely flies AGAINST the plain sense of the Scripture.
Your allegorical hermeneutic is illegitimately selective here. At once you want us to believe that the Genesis references to these two trees are to refer to Christ and Satan ... meaning that Jesus was literally present in the Garden and an eyewitness to the serpent's literal penetration of Eve.
You want the symbolism to work literally for you to establish your doctrine, but you bring it up in an argument of utter, total, complete SILENCE. Scriptural symbolism is a legitimate literary genre in the Bible, but this contorted view you present is simply beyond belief!
HOW do we know the serpent had a penis and that Eve's genitalia was it's target? Where do we get the belief that Jesus would just stand there watching death pass upon all man and not lay the smackdown on Satan and send the mother of all to take a cold shower? I can go on, and I know I run the risk of sounding crude, but I hope you are seeing my point. You are stating sexual perversity is the root of our evil.
Can't you see how really skewed this supposition is that you make just out of these first verses? If we are missing it HERE, how can we go on anywhere else to jump to another verse to "explain" more of your doctrine? Your obviously sincere and zealous dissertation simply provides NO proof whatsoever for it! You are only tellling us "see, Jesus is the tree of life .." quote a verse .. then move on as if you've proved the point. Uh uh, that simply won't do.
We can discuss this til the cows come home, but I don't have time for such a thing. If you cannot bring up Scriptures that clearly tell us this, then the whole point of this discussion is moot, because that is exactly what we are waiting to hear. WHAT in the Scriptures in Genesis 2 - 3 conclusively lead us to believe this truly bizarre teaching???
agape
rafael
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Acts-dicted
Posts: 7766
5/20/06 11:08 pm
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| Rafael, I really thought you were going to finish your |
BlessedinMsTn |
line of reasoning, I was enjoying it actually,,, I was enjoying you taking each one of my statements and discussing them,, I am sorry you stopped at the second one when there were many more to go . . .
Rafael, you continue to talk about how crazy my thinking is to believe that Jesus was the Tree of Life,,,,, let me just ask this,, can you prove that it was not Jesus?
Do you choose to believe this same tree in Revelations that was in Eden was a physical transplanted tree? That is produces literal fruit? If so then there is a great chasm between us . . . . .to think that is to think as the church thinks, in carnality,, on the surface..... it would be like saying that the wounded head of the Beast was not Papal Rome,, since it doesn't say that.,......
Bye the Spirit and the Symbols we know that the head that healed itself was indeed Papal Rome . . . .
You did not touch the scriptures in Ezekiel where Pharaoh is compared to one of the trees in Eden, Satan,, brought down like one of the trees in Egypt,,,, to the NETHER Parts of the earth, HELL
You have yet to tell this board although I have asked repeatedly who the children of Satan were as referred to by God as being his SEED,, CHILDREN,,, VIRILE SPERM
You failed to tell this board how that of all the OLD TESTAMENT characters only ONE was called the SON of SATAN,, CAIN,,, this is what John called him
You failed to tell this board why, SETH was called the REPLACEMENT OF THE SEED . . . . if CAIN Was the seed of ADAM then why must the SEED be replaced
You failed to tell this board why EVE means the MOTHER OF ALL LIVING when ADAM does not mean the Father of ALL Living
You failed to tell this board how CAIN was just like his Father, a MURDERER,, remember JESUS said that SATAN was a murderer from the beginning
You failed to tell this board that the ONE MAN that you speak of, ADAM was actually ADAM & EVE,, they were ONE FLESH,,, they were both called ADAM
So, yes through the disobedience of ONE MAN,,, remember his wife's actions were his actions,, they were flesh of one flesh,,, through him embracing her,, without being deceived as she was,, caused sin to come into the earth
You failed to tell this board why The SPERM of a MAN the ACT of SEX could NOT be involved in the birthing of the second SON of GOD, Jesus Christ . . . .
The original birth was a SPOKEN WORD birth,, this was the means of creation,, Adam was given that same power,, he was only lower than God,, he was the God of this World,, ALL THINGS had been placed under his feet. . . .Had all men been created by his spoken word we would have remained the SONS of GOD.. However,, when the flesh entered into the picture,,, SEXUAL DRIVE caused us to be born of the FLESH and we died at that MOMENT
WHY did God hate our first birth soo much that he said we were born the enemies of GOD,,,, he said we must be BORN AGAIN. why?
You failed to tell this board one scripture that says Jesus was NOT the tree of life , . . . . . it would be pretty hard to say he wasn't when he said in his own words,,, ANY MAN WHO EATS OF ME SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE
HE told them he was that BREAD that came from God out of heaven... that BREAD OF LIFE......
Trees are referred to many times as physical men in Gods Word....
You are a man that serves God with his whole heart,, I love that in people and I acknowledge your knowledge of the scriptures.... but Rafael sometimes there are things we simply refuse to see . . . Now you nor I are lost if we do or don't believe in this doctrine . . . . . .. However, I do believe that this doctrine shows the beauty of the PURE SHED BLOOD of Christ,, as it replaces our corruptible seed . . . .as it makes us new creatures,,, moves us from the Fatherhood of Satan to the Fatherhood of GOD
It was Jesus who said,, "you came out of your Father, the Devil"
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Posts: 6126
5/20/06 11:38 pm
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| Re: Toby youve got to be kidding me,,, (L and Pic) |
Toby |
| BlessedinMsTn wrote: | I spent what seemed like forever proving the Jesus is the tree of life . . . .
You evidently did not read one thing I wrote, how disheartening after trying so hard to bring so many scriptures concerning Jesus being the tree of life... |
Let me first say I’m sorry you are upset and dishearten. I was wondering when you would start attacking as seems to be your mode of reasoning. Let me assure you I read your post all of them and found that you have no scriptural proof to back up your claim that Jesus is the tree of life mentioned in Eden, in Revelation 2:7, in the 22 chapter as well as anyplace else in the word of God.
| Quote: | | I love how you say I didn't deal with Genesis 4,,, you didn't address ANY of my scriptures,, NONE, NOTTA, NOTHING... |
Please go back and reread my post titled Re: Ok as gentlemen let’s try another tactic. I thought I numbered them and got through three before I ran out of time. And that brings me to the other accusation you made.
| Quote: | | You had no answer concerning which Tree Pharaoh was representing . . .Oh MAN this is sad. . . . |
I thought I explained that as well. Go back and reread my post and you will find my reason for this.
I said
| Quote: | | This is getting long so I will reserve the rest for another time. I am looking forward to your response and scriptures. |
| Quote: | | And you know what else I love Toby,,, you made it sound as if I had no proof of women having twins from different fathers, you even seemed to suggest that it wasn't true.,,,,, when I post 921,000 links for you,,, you say NOTHING |
You read more into this than I typed. All I ask for was where you had gotten your statistics.
I said:
| Quote: | By the way would you please tell us where you got your statistics on twins being sired by different fathers?
You said
Quote: There are over 3200 documented cases where mothers have twins from different fathers who she has known within three days of each other... |
I know this has happened but I was wondering where you were getting the 3200 documented cases and that was all.
I have a couple of questions concerning the quoting of Rev. 22:7 Which translation are you using that reads "was in paradise?”
Also which verse says Cain was “evil?”
Now concerning the couple that had a black baby and a white baby, I await the link to the news report confirming that a DNA was done and she admitted to having an affair with a black man. Since she is dark and her lover is black stands to reason if she had sex with another man he would have had to have been white.
Your quote: | Quote: | | Now you asked where I got my statistics about twins from different Fathers, I will gladly oblige... and bye the way,, it was found that the story on ABC concerning the twins,,, the mystery has been solved in the update,,,, the DNA did not match from the second daughter,, the wife confessed to an affair with a black man . . .We've been preaching this for years that this can happen |
Here is a pic of the family check them out and a link.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=377839&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=&ct=5
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Toby
I'm just so proud to be here! |
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5/21/06 5:44 pm
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| Toby, to answer your question |
BlessedinMsTn |
Rev 2:7 -
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
I John 3:12 - Not as Cain, [who] was out of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil
Remember, bitter water and sweet water cant flow out of the same cistern,, so if the works were evil so was the well from whence it came,,, therefore Cain was born EVIL . . .he came out of that wicked ONE
Toby,,,, do you know that NO ONE has told this board who Satan's children were that God spoke of in Eden,.,,, When God your CHILDREN or SEED shall be at war with HER CHILDREN,,,,
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6126
5/21/06 6:28 pm
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| May I give my imput? |
PastorNeal |
I have really enjoyed the discussion of this topic.
But stoping to read the Word for myself, I came across some points of interest. In Gen. 3: 6, It says, " So when the woman saw that the tree as good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.'
First of all I am not a Bible scholar nor do I hold a degree in any form earned or purchased.
But when I read this passage of scripture I take it for its literal meaning of "good for FOOD". Then it says clearly that she ATE.
Now what really gets me is that she gave to her husband, "WITH HER" and he ate. I take this as Adam was with her.
Now Blessed, Did Adam stand there and watch the act in which you are addressing? I personally would not stand by and watch my wife and some one else do what you are suggesting.
Point 2
Gen. 3: 15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.
Blessed, I clearly understand your points. But here is my thought on this matter.
Please take note of the low case "s" used to describe the seed of the serpent, Satan. Now the Upper case "S" of the woman's seed, once again representing Jesus Christ.
This then brought to light the Scripture of the Parable of the Sower. Mat. chapter 13. Please read entire chapter.
This in short I believe that the seeds mentioned in Genesis can be related to the seeds metioned by Jesus himself in this parable.
Satan's seed is the tares, things that choke out the true seed the gospel of the Word, the Seed of Jesus Christ.
Like I said just a thought.
Hey Raphael and Blessed, please don't dissect me to bad. LOL
Loved this topic and and just wanted to give this as impute. I hope I have made myself plain. |
Newbie
Posts: 2
5/22/06 6:52 am
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| The dangerous heresy of the serpent seed doctrine. |
Toby |
There is a dark side of hate that Blessd is not mentioning in this discussion. I was waiting for him to reveal it but since he hasn't I will.
This “SS” doctrine is not harmless! It has sprung out of the hatred and racism of mankind. The Neo Nazi, Aryan Nations, skin heads and the KKK believe that the "white, anglo saxon races" (of England, Germany, France, etc) is the true ISRAEL, the true Chosen race of GOD. They believe that The Jews and the Blacks are of the "SS" Seed, the "Serpent Seed" of Satan & Eve.
The "serpent seed" doctrine is perhaps the most vile of deceptive doctrines since it relegates various whole races of men to the status of animals, rather than recognizing all men as being made in the image of God.
The Doctrine of The Serpent Seedline ("SS" Doctrine) was responsible for the Holocaust and the death of six million Jews in World War II and the loss of millions of more lives.
This is not harmless it is very dangerous.
Blessed would you care to comment on this.
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Toby
I'm just so proud to be here! |
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Posts: 465
5/22/06 10:45 am
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| Toby & Pastor Neal, thanks for wonderful questions |
BlessedinMsTn |
Lets spend a few minutes addressing them;
First to Pastor Neal, thanks for your objectiveness and your ability to express your thoughts without being condescending;
# 1 - If you will notice there is a reference in Revelations of you and I eating fruit from the tree of life as well. However, anyone would be hard pressed to believe that our reward for a life of living for God will be natural fruit.. Fruit is the outward results of an inward work,,,,,
We all know that children are the fruit of married couples,, the fruit of a woman's womb is her child... So, if you see the Tree in Revelations as a spiritual tree and the fruit as a symbol of something much deeper,, then you must see it in Genesis as well . . .Because we are told in Revelations that this is the same tree that was in Eden . . .
Revelation 2:7 - In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
Now, Pastor Neal, ,, surely these fruit were not apricots and peaches,,, they were fruit and leaves that healed the nations.. Those came fruit of Christ are being produced in US, the fruit of his Resurrection,, and THROUGH us he is healing the nations
So, I trust, even if you don't agree,, that you at least see where I am coming from . . .I think it is almost hypocritical of us to be able to see the symbolism of Revelations and not in Genesis. For example if this same story about Eden was written in Revelations, we would never believe these trees were literal because we know hot to interpret Revelations with allegory's and symbols.
For example when the Prophet saw horses in the air with fire in their tales,, we know that this is not what he saw,, it had a deeper meaning...
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God
Remember,, the tree in Genesis,, WHERE WAS IT? In the MIDST, the MIDDLE,, the same Paradise of God............Eden
Now, # 2 - Was Adam there with her when she sinned.. First of all, we have no idea where Adam was,, after she tool the fruit then we know she offered this same fruit of pleasure for him to eat of it . . .
Now, we know according to the NEW TESTAMENT that Adam could not have been there when the serpent was seducing or beguiling her.. Because, Paul tells us that ADAM was NOT deceived,,, the Serpent did not speak to Adam, he knew he could not be deceived, he was the SON of GOD.... Now, lets suppose Adam would have been there, HE WOULD HAVE STOPPED EVE from being deceived,, so WE KNOW according to that understanding that he was not in close proximity,,, Now,, scriptures are written sometimes with hundreds of years transpiring between verses and chapters... Now, after she was beguiled,,, he was WITH HER and she offered this fruit unto him to partake of...
You know think about this,, that must have been an awesome apple or orange for her to want him to have it,,, and for God to curse them for eating it... we think in such simplicity sometimes,,, He that hath an ear let him HEAR what the SPIRIT is SAYING . . .
You know the Bible is hidden from the world, , it is revealed to them who are hungry for it..... this is not a novel that be surface read,, there is a great mystery in Gods Word that is revealed by the Spirit . . . .
Just as Jesus said, "Were the salt of the earth" Now,,, on the surface it sounds like were Sodium Chloride,, but the Spirit MIND knows better,, it understands we are the SALVATION of the EARTH.
I hope that addresses your questions
Now Toby
You and I both know that your argument is correct yet sorely lacking in fairness. It was your forefathers that killed thousands of Christians in the name of Christ,,,,, because they were Protestant,,, I could go on and on about great truths being taken to the extreme . . . .
Neither I, Bro. Branham nor any of the believers I have talked with believe any of the hateful things you described . . .You see where we differ from those people is in the fact that we believe after the flood, the corrupt seed infiltrated ALL MEN through intermarriage and mixing of these original races of people who were indeed of the righteous seed line. I mean if you remember all of Cains children were wicked,, Nimrod, Pharaoh, the list goes on and on,, While Seth's seed was Abraham, Moses, Noah, Issac, Jacob all the Patriarchs,, However,, this is why God FORBID intermarriage with he HEATHENS,, BUT the children of Israel did it and there IS NO LONGER a pure blood line AT ALL,,, Therefore, Christ came to give ALL MEN a new race to enter,, a new and holy nation,, Not an ARIAN NATION but a HOLY NATION . . .When you come to Christ,, no matter your Race,, you are no longer part of that race but you have come into the household of faith....
So, see Toby,, if were gonna talk about the evilness of doctrines,, lets start with our own, all the way back to the Catholic church... Lets talk about 60 years ago when the UPC and ASSEMBLIES OF GOD were literally at war, evil things were done......... I mean we can find EVIL in all extremes of every doctrine,, at least be fair
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The Remnant are Returning. Foundations are being Restored. All Breaches are being Repaired. The Body of Christ is Rising! |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6126
5/22/06 11:12 am
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| Re: Toby, to answer your question |
Toby |
[quote="BlessedinMsTn"]Rev 2:7 -
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
I’m glad you finally got that right you have constantly misquoted this verse by saying “was in” not “is in” There is a big difference between past tense and present tense. This scripture refers to the paradise that was present at the time John was given this message to share with us. The paradise the New Jerusalem which he latter describes to us in Rev. 21&22.
| Quote: | | I John 3:12 - Not as Cain, [who] was out of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil |
This says his works were evil not that he was born evil (another add to the scriptures by you.)
The nature of sin that Cain had was from his father Adam Gen. 4:1Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man.” 2Later she gave birth to his brother Abel. This is very clear that Adam was Cain’s father not Satan.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—
Cain had a choice to sin or not sin. Gen. 4:6&7 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.” He let sin master him and he killed his brother rather than deal with his on unbelief Heb.11:4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
Satan being a fallen angel or cherubim does not have the ability to have children so even if Eve had a sexual relation as you clam with the serpent the offspring would not have any DNA from Satan. It would only be part serpent (Cold blooded reptile) and part human (warm blooded mammal). It is impossible for this to happen. How ridiculous! Cain slithered out of Eve's body and crawled away.
The relationship with Satan and his children is spiritual not physical. Eph 2:1-5 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
| Quote: | | Toby,,,, do you know that NO ONE has told this board who Satan's children were that God spoke of in Eden,.,,, When God your CHILDREN or SEED shall be at war with HER CHILDREN,,,, |
Better yet why don’t you cut to the chase and tell this board who the “SS” believers say the serpent seed Mongrel race is today, you cannot separate one from the other.
And I await the link to the news article about the DNA test done on the couple with black and white twins.
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Toby
I'm just so proud to be here! |
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Posts: 465
5/22/06 11:49 am
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| Satan's Children |
His disciple |
| BlessedinMsTn wrote: | | Toby,,,, do you know that NO ONE has told this board who Satan's children were that God spoke of in Eden,.,,, When God your CHILDREN or SEED shall be at war with HER CHILDREN,,,, |
If Satan's children could only be the result of Satan having sex with Eve, how are we God's children? Who did God have sex with?
Also, wouldn't both be Eve's children since she gave birth to Satan's kid.
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Matthew 7:25 |
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Posts: 249
5/22/06 12:02 pm
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| Toby, you are hard to debate with, |
BlessedinMsTn |
Not because of your intelligence but because of your demeaning tone and your attitude, you don't debate as one seeking to discuss scriptures, you seem to have desire to give false information,, concerning SS Doctrine... I have explained to you that there are extremes in all doctrines,, you choose to focus on the extremes,, my church is filled with every race of people,,,, we are all children of Satan now unless we have been born again
Now sir, how you can see no similarities in the tree in the paradise of God,, by the way in the MIDST of the paradise of God, same place it was in Eden, is totally beyond me
How you can symbolize Revelations but not Genesis, shows utter disregard for the possibility of scriptures.
How you could say ADAM was EVIL, blows my mind... DO you not understand the most beautiful Gospel message rendered in Adam and EVE,, do you not know that PAUL says that ADAM was not deceived he took on EVES SIN, willingly to spare her life,, he was the SON OF GOD,, and you call him evil,,, its almost impossible to believe anyone would call the perfect Son of God evil,,, he was like Christ in the fact the he that KNEW NO SIN, BECAME SIN,, he took EVES SIN upon himself willingly according to Paul's teaching,, he was not deceived,, he was typing the redemptive work of Christ
Now for you to say that CAIN, such an evil creature who was a murderer could have come from the loins of the Son of God,,, the same LOINS that righteousness such as Seth and the Patriarchs came out of is mind boggling....
Can was EVIL because he DEED WERE EVIL,,,, HOW YOU CANT SEE this,,, I don't understand,,, How one child is perfectly righteous, SETH,, so righteous that Jesus mother came from his LOINS.,,,,, and then CAIN comes out SOOO EVIL,, he was OUT OF THAT WICKED ONE . . .
Sir, in all kindness and respect Cain didn't come out and slither away, this really shows your utter lack of knowledge on our beliefs,,, the SERPENT was not a REPTILE,, COME ON MAN,,, think before you post , , ,he was an upright,, gorgeous, intellectual mammal that could speak the language of humans,, he was able to talk, walk and was most subtle,,, his intellect was able to seduce Adams wife,,,,, and offer her fruit that in his words would make her like God,, able to create LIFE
Oh wow,, whatever my brother,, I respect you and try my best to have gentlemanly debates,,, but how you can call Adam EVIL,,, when his lineage was righteous,, SETH< ABRAHAM,, now LOOK AT CAINS lineage,, NIMROD< PHARAOH and on and on and on
God Bless You My Brother
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The Remnant are Returning. Foundations are being Restored. All Breaches are being Repaired. The Body of Christ is Rising! |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6126
5/22/06 12:06 pm
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| Raph - Blessed Please continue this debate |
Nature Boy Florida |
I want to join the debate only on this one (non scriptural) point.
Blessed said:
"...Now, Satan entered into this animal that we believe is the missing link between humans and apes,,,, scientist have always said that you can almost cross the seed of a human and an ape because their so close,, but there is a scientific missing link in the anatomy,, we believe this missing link was this animal who was beautiful..."
This is pure conjecture. From my studies, there is and has never been any missing link between humans and apes. In fact, the more we learn about the DNA blueprint, the more we see how distinct they are. There are no transitionary creatures ever discovered either. Yes they were created by the same architect who reused structures (simple example: such as the eye) in many different creatures, but each creature has its very disctinct place in God' creation. Summarizing, the human being was/is "very good" according to the Creator. Thus, I can't go along with this part of your reasoning.
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Posts: 16619
5/22/06 12:17 pm
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| Blessed |
Toby |
| Quote: | Now Toby
You and I both know that your argument is correct yet sorely lacking in fairness. It was your forefathers that killed thousands of Christians in the name of Christ,,,,, because they were Protestant,,, I could go on and on about great truths being taken to the extreme . . . . |
In all fairness you have no ideal who my forefathers are.
What evil has been done by others does not excuse the evil done and being done by the serpent seed doctrine. We are not talking about Protestant or AOG we are addressing serpent seed doctrine so lets discuss the dark side about it. This doctrine is demonic to say the least. You may not spread the part about the mongrel race but you have laid the foundation for it to be spread to the people that have received what you are preaching. I have no doubt that if you would let me talk to your followers we would find out that the majority have already advanced to believing the raciest side of this doctrine.
Each and everyone must give an account for what they preach and do.
| Quote: | | Because we are told in Revelations that this is the same tree that was in Eden . . . |
Where does it say in Rev. that the tree of life that is in the midst of paradise is the same one that was in Eden? When this was written paradise know as Eden had been long gone. You are speculating again.
The trees of Rev. 22 because there are more than one may only be an emblem but they are still trees.
| Quote: | | So, I trust, even if you don't agree,, that you at least see where I am coming from . . .I think it is almost hypocritical of us to be able to see the symbolism of Revelations and not in Genesis. For example if this same story about Eden was written in Revelations, we would never believe these trees were literal because we know hot to interpret Revelations with allegory's and symbols. |
Please explain to us what everything in Rev.21&22 Symbolizes. I know it will take you awhile but I await your answer. If it is all symbolic I really want to know.
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Toby
I'm just so proud to be here! |
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Posts: 465
5/22/06 12:39 pm
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