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Are All Rapes Created Equal?
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Post Are All Rapes Created Equal? Yo Dude
As you know, the NC Lacrosse Team is under fire for allegedly raping a dancer/stripper that came to their party.

Can I make an observation that may be unknowingly chauvanistic? There is a world of difference between the rape of, say, a young, pure lady and someone whose object is to incite feelings of arousal.

Now, I am NOT saying that both are not wrong--both ARE wrong!--but the man who rapes the former person ought to be killed. The person who, in the heat of the a moment incited by the actions of the second lady, well, he ought to be punished, but certainly not to the same extent...unless the crime was particularly heinous in nature (e.g., of a particularly violent nature, beating, etc.).

For instance, if a flirty young thing is out on a date, and it allowing all sorts of liberties to be taken, and so forth, and then decides that she doesn't want to after all...well, she has that right. But at the same time, the guy has a mitigating circumstance to claim, namely that the woman apparently "toyed" with him and then wanted to walk away consequence-free.

Again, doesn't make it right. It does, however, make it understandable.

If you play, you pay. BOTH THE GUY AND THE GIRL. The guy by being punished, the girl by being reprimanded and finding that the guy was not buried under the jail.

Further, in my universe, this "understanding" would be good for exactly ONE time. If a guy winds up in the same situation twice, he gets the full book thrown at him.

I am NOT justifying it. I am simply saying that there are factors that lessen the situation, in my eyes.

Thoughts?
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4/27/06 5:26 pm


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Post Okay Pastor Gary
So you are for one "boys will be boys" get-out-of-jail-free rape per testosterone-charged teenaged boy?

Do you have daughters?? Shocked
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Post You're Kidding Right? NPS39
Rape is never right, the old adage that "she deserved it or asked for it" is archaic and ridiculous. I'm hoping you don't have daughters and that nothing ever happens to them! Acts Enthusiast
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4/27/06 6:12 pm


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Post Re: Are All Rapes Created Equal? revstevef
Yo Dude,
This is RevSteve's wife. You said in your eyes that because of the lady's occupation the rape was "Lessened" in your eyes. In my opinion your eyes need put out!!!! NO MATTER what a women does for a living she does not deserve to be raped!!! Rape is Rape NO MATTER the circumstance!!!!! What if someone did this to your daughter, sister, mother Question Should his punishment be less if for some reason they were living the same kind of life this women was. You don t know why this lady was working this particular way. Maybe she couldn't get help and had kids to feed or any other million reasons she could be doing what she was doing. GOD help you, cause with your attitude you need it....Paula
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4/27/06 6:36 pm


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Post Yo Dude, Rape is rape.... revstevef
Yo Dude, Of course you can tell you stirred up my wife, as you have before on some of your ideas on issues.

Sometimes I don't understand your views, in the light of the gospel.
Rape makes the women the victim. How you can say not all rapes are heinous, I'll never know.

Every sinful and hurtful act has a consequence, and ultimately a punishment.
No matter how you justify them.

Steve
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4/27/06 6:48 pm


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Post Re: Are All Rapes Created Equal? Link
YoDude wrote,
Quote:

Can I make an observation that may be unknowingly chauvanistic? There is a world of difference between the rape of, say, a young, pure lady and someone whose object is to incite feelings of arousal.

Now, I am NOT saying that both are not wrong--both ARE wrong!--but the man who rapes the former person ought to be killed.


In the Old Testament Law that God gave through Moses, if a man raped an innocent young virgin, he had to pay the bride price. He had to marry the girl if her father would give her to him.

If he raped a married or betrothed woman, he was to be put to death.


In general, I would suspect that judges and courts in the US probably are harder on those who rape the young innocent girl, if there is a variety of legal options.

I heard a discussion once on marital rape, rape within a marriage. I think some states did not have real laws against it. What are your views on punishment in that situation as compared with the other types of rape you mentioned?
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4/27/06 7:07 pm


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Post Yo,Dude. TheBeebs
Rape is about power and control, not passion. That's why decent men, even in a "tease" situation stop when the woman says no. The man who keeps going is proving that he can have anything he wants anytime he wants it.

Incidently, though it is rarely heard of, when the situation is reversed, it's still rape. If it's same sex, it's still rape. It's all about power and showing another person who's boss.

No means "N-O"
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4/27/06 7:25 pm


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Post Re: Are All Rapes Created Equal? Memory03
The WOMAN in question did exactly the same thing ten years ago. She failed to get money then and she will fail to get money now. Why should we take her word over theirs (accused) ? Her "job" kills 100% of her credibility with me. I question EVERY charge since the Jim Bakker/Jessica Hahn heist.
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Post God help you if your daughter ends up in that situation .. Rafael D Martinez
Or anyone close to you.

Let's see how lenient you'll be then.

Rape is RAPE. If any of my nieces, God forbid, EVER get in the situation where they foolishly enticed a boy due to their hormones flowing, and if in the end she realizes that this isn't where they wanted to be but found the boy unstoppable, do you think that's going to lessen my outrage or my desire to see justice done?

How does circumstance somehow "lessen" the violation of a woman's body by the force of a man's lust? If a woman says NO, even if she carnally and sensually entices with some wicked teasing, the man needs to zip it, take a shower and leave. Just because she seems like she's being the way she is never excuses the act of violence.

All you seem to be setting forth to do is somehow defend the act of violence as if one degree is worse than another .. Dude, you just love stirring the pots of the outrageous, don't you?

agape

rafael
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Post Re: God help you if your daughter ends up in that situation Memory03
Rafael D Martinez wrote:
Or anyone close to you.

Let's see how lenient you'll be then.

Rape is RAPE. If any of my nieces, God forbid, EVER get in the situation where they foolishly enticed a boy due to their hormones flowing, and if in the end she realizes that this isn't where they wanted to be but found the boy unstoppable, do you think that's going to lessen my outrage or my desire to see justice done?

How does circumstance somehow "lessen" the violation of a woman's body by the force of a man's lust? If a woman says NO, even if she carnally and sensually entices with some wicked teasing, the man needs to zip it, take a shower and leave. Just because she seems like she's being the way she is never excuses the act of violence.

All you seem to be setting forth to do is somehow defend the act of violence as if one degree is worse than another .. Dude, you just love stirring the pots of the outrageous, don't you?

agape

rafael




I don't have a daughter. But if I did and she were a stripper, I still don't know that I would trust her. I don't know that I wouldn't either. My point is that I don't trust every allegation. I have seen so many false allegations over the years because someone is looking for a payday. Have any of you ever seen someone falsely accused of anything? After you have seen a few you are suspicious of them all.
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Last edited by Memory03 on 4/27/06 9:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post Yo Dude COGPW
If you ever give your heart to Jesus so many of your outrageous post will stop.
Either you have never read your Bible, don't care or your just full of bitterness that is destroying you.
No Christian would make such idiotic statements.

As a woman, I have every right to be outraged at your sickening post
By the way, if this woman is lying it doesn't change the fact that all rapes are equal; they are all sick acts of violence by out of control men or women and it has nothing to do with arousal but all about Satan controlling their desire to hurt someone.

If this dancers story is true it was a vicious crime which includes sodomy with a broom stick- NOTHING to do with arousal.
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Post Re: God help you if your daughter ends up in that situation Memory03
Rafael D Martinez wrote:
Or anyone close to you.

Let's see how lenient you'll be then.

Rape is RAPE. If any of my nieces, God forbid, EVER get in the situation where they foolishly enticed a boy due to their hormones flowing, and if in the end she realizes that this isn't where they wanted to be but found the boy unstoppable, do you think that's going to lessen my outrage or my desire to see justice done?

How does circumstance somehow "lessen" the violation of a woman's body by the force of a man's lust? If a woman says NO, even if she carnally and sensually entices with some wicked teasing, the man needs to zip it, take a shower and leave. Just because she seems like she's being the way she is never excuses the act of violence.

All you seem to be setting forth to do is somehow defend the act of violence as if one degree is worse than another .. Dude, you just love stirring the pots of the outrageous, don't you?

agape

rafael





Raf, I totally respect everything you say. But you/Me/everyone must understand that we all react differently when anything tragic hits close to home. I am taking an objective view. I don't trust everyone who cries wolf, especially when they have done it more than once.
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Post Re: Are All Rapes Created Equal? saved by grace
It was Duke lacrosse players, not NC, even though it is in NC. Tarheels are natural enemies of the dukies, kinda like the Hatfields & McCoys. Laughing
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Post Let Us Reason Together... Yo Dude
In "Les Miserables" Jean Valjean is imprisioned for many years...for stealing a loaf of bread.

Are all thefts equal? No. All are WRONG. All are SIN. But there are degrees that we must discern if we are to exercise good judgment.

Will you agree, then, that stealing a loaf of bread is far less "criminal" and "wrong" than, say, stealing a child?

Would you agree that a woman who, angry at her husband, dumps the hot coffee in his lap and busts the carafe over his head, and as a result has to go to the emergency room with a black eye and a busted lip, is not in the same category as the faithful wife who is beaten for going to church?

Quite simply, one forced a confrontation...one was simply assaulted by a ogre.

Would you agree that the man who is killed playing Russian Roulette cannot command the same compassion as the 6-year-old child who is hit by a random, drive-by bullet?

The Bible says, "Can a man take fire into his bosom and not be burned?" And the truth of the matter is that if a woman is playing with fire by purposely putting herself in contexts that invite a level of intimacy usually reserved for the bedroom, in contexts that cause her to be entangled with strangers...then when she gets burned, I am supposed to act all outraged?

No one is arguing that what was done was not wrong! IT WAS WRONG. But there are degrees of wrong, folks. And for us to ignore those moral distinctions is to do the equivalent of blindly tossing EVERY killer in jail for life--whether they killed in cold-blood, in the heat of the moment, by accident, or in self-defense. That is, you are not making a distinction in your efforts to be politically correct.

A woman who would lead a man on and then, in cold calculation, tell him no (not to say at all that this is the lacrosse case)...well, she should NOT be raped, but if she is, I'm going to have to say, "Baby, you played with fire, and you got burnt. He's guilty...but so are you."

And that really is all I am getting to: that all rapes are not just the man being guilty. Sometimes, they are both contributors to the crime. And let's stop all this ignorant nonsense of acting like, "Oh, dear! If a woman is raped for ANY REASON, she might as well have been pure as the driven snow, and the man is utterly and solely at fault."

And as for the scary lady who questioned my Christianity...I am neither unsaved nor bitter. I'm just honest. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all be?

Rape is a crime, and should be in all cases. But just as there can be mitigating factors for murder, there can be the same for rape. If a woman comes to a virtual frat party and does a striptease dance and things that no hormones will be stirred, and that she might, at the least, get pawed, she's crazy.

That is all I am trying to say. I'm not accusing or excusing anyone! But I am saying that we can't rubber stamp every rape as equally malicious and malevolent, even if we can stamp them all WRONG.

Love.
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4/27/06 11:34 pm


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Post Yo Dude thejanitor
Sorry, but it sounds like you're trying to compare apples to oranges in every context.

Stealing a loaf of bread and kidnapping?? They aren't even used in the same sentence.

A topless dancer's occupation, shameless as it may seem, is not illegal, but for a man to rape her because he can not control his impulse, I guess that 's what you'd call it, is very much illegal and unimaginable.
How can you think for a second that because of her chosen line of work it would lessen the criminality of the rape.
I think these women do this line of work because they don't have a choice or at least they don't feel like they do. They have families and bills just like the rest of us. What they need is someone to help pick them up out of their messy livelihood and show them a better way, but probably not you, yo dude.
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Post Yo.......... TheBeebs
Quote:
If a woman comes to a virtual frat party and does a striptease dance and things that no hormones will be stirred, and that she might, at the least, get pawed, she's crazy.


What part of "it's not about hormones" do you not understand?



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Post OK, let me try this again... Yo Dude
Here are some NOTS to observe....

I am NOT saying that it's OK to rape a woman because of her line of profession. I AM saying that if that woman's ACTIONS (not her profession) serve to be provocative and otherwise inviting of sexually-charged behavior, then there are mitigating circumstances surrounding the matter. It's still wrong. Still criminal. Still deserving of punishment.

I am NOT saying that rape is about sex and not violence (actually, it's both). I AM saying that acting in a manner that inspires lust has consequences. It may be that a woman is thought of as a base person. It may be she is treated as a bimbo. It may be, in the right context, rape.

Look folks, there are consequences in this world! I don't like them, and you don't either, but they're still there!

Whatsoever a person sows, that will they reap. If you sow a flirty attitude, give come-hither looks, and wear provocative clothing, ladies, you are sending a signal that you are inviting sexual interest. No, you're not giving a signal that's it's OK to take advantage of you, but that's MY reading of it...another man--the wrong man!--will read that differently, perhaps.

All I am trying to get across is, I suppose, my feeling that we must balance our hysterical cries of "RAPE!" with some sort of judgment about the circumstances. That is, we cannot give proper judgment if we take the event out of its context. After all, that would mean that killing in self-defense was just as repugnant as cold-blooded murder.

Love.
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Post I gotta throw my hat in the ring... Joy L Martinez
Yo Dude wrote:
Here are some NOTS to observe....

I am NOT saying that it's OK to rape a woman because of her line of profession. I AM saying that if that woman's ACTIONS (not her profession) serve to be provocative and otherwise inviting of sexually-charged behavior, then there are mitigating circumstances surrounding the matter. It's still wrong. Still criminal. Still deserving of punishment.

I am NOT saying that rape is about sex and not violence (actually, it's both). I AM saying that acting in a manner that inspires lust has consequences. It may be that a woman is thought of as a base person. It may be she is treated as a bimbo. It may be, in the right context, rape.

Look folks, there are consequences in this world! I don't like them, and you don't either, but they're still there!

Whatsoever a person sows, that will they reap. If you sow a flirty attitude, give come-hither looks, and wear provocative clothing, ladies, you are sending a signal that you are inviting sexual interest. No, you're not giving a signal that's it's OK to take advantage of you, but that's MY reading of it...another man--the wrong man!--will read that differently, perhaps.

All I am trying to get across is, I suppose, my feeling that we must balance our hysterical cries of "RAPE!" with some sort of judgment about the circumstances. That is, we cannot give proper judgment if we take the event out of its context. After all, that would mean that killing in self-defense was just as repugnant as cold-blooded murder.

Love.


I have been open here about being a survivor of sexual abuse, and so have an personal interest in this subject matter.

Wow, so many variables here...

What can I agree with you about? Yes, we do reap what we sow. If we are provocative and flirty, yes, we are bound to attract attention. That's the nature of the beast. But in the end, we are all responsible for our actions. No one "causes" us to do anything. But we also know that there are people out there who feel "justified" because of someones "look." Perhaps they think someone is flirting with them and "wants to know them a little better;" It may be obvious, or it could be subjective, a matter of personal opinion/interpretation. But whether they are stripping at a nightclub or winking at someone after a clever joke, rape is never justified. Rapists are predators. They are consumers and lust after power.

Some thoughts

Be prepared for an onslaught:

Besides the fact that we are human and we are sexual beings, we (especially young girls) are inundated by an image conscious, sexualized culture that teaches via videos, music, magazines, tv drama and sitcoms how to be seductresses. Of course, these sources do not necessarily tell young girls about the potential outcome of this behavior. In fact, this is pushed as THE WAY to be loved and wanted. As I mentioned in the thread about porn, we have brought porn and it's seduction to the living room, i.e., it has become mainstream and acceptable.

The result? we have more girls (younger and younger, I might add) who model this behavior. Ever seen a 7 year old girl mimic a 'bump and grind' video? I did, in the midst of a Church of God sleepover.

Some girls think that the way to have the attention they desperately need and want is to seduce, prance, titillate, flirt, dress provocatively and everything else. And might I add there are countless girls who are so desperate for love and acceptance they will do absolutely anything to get it, just for one moment of being wanted!
Some of these girls may grow up to be strippers. Who knows. It's hard to know what story lies behind the faces of these women.

I watched a program on WE, "The Secret Lives of Women." There was a college student on the program, raised in a christian family who prostituted herself to put herself through college. Not all women enter the sex industry because of an underprivileged life, abuse or a felt need. She confessed how horrified her Christian parents would be if they were to find out what she was doing. They lived overseas and had dreams of her receiving a good education. Before meeting a "client," she comforts herself by playing a Christian Hymn on her organ. She acknowledged that her participation had really worn on her. (i.e., consequences) And in the end, she finally left the "biz" because it was becoming too dangerous and depressing for her. She had exposed herself countless times to STD's. It makes you wonder why women make such decisions, given the toll it takes on them. But hey, there are women out there who would say they absolutely LOVE it and in their opinion, they have a great life! But if they were to be raped, would they get what they deserve? I think we agree, that no they do not. Behaviors have consequences, yes. But do they get what they deserve? Do we get what WE deserve? In the end, we realize how we are all pretty much in the same need for Grace and deliverance from our own nature.

I am sure some women who strip are fully aware of the dangers. And some seek justification for the behavior and present it as a viable form of employment. (there are even organizations that promote its legitimacy and acceptance in society). I am sure this is incredibly frustrating for the average Joe, who struggles with sexuality and lust. After all, why should these women be allowed to be out and about "prancing their wares," tempting and enticing while they who struggle every moment just to contain themselves must practice self-control? Because it is the right thing to do.

A rapist by definition isn't interested in self-control. He is a predator, and for some, just the fact that his victim is a woman is reason enough. She could be 6 years old or 86. Men are raped too. It's all about power.

Rape/sexual abuse, molestation is a horrible thing. It is so horrible that truly there aren't words for it. It creates a void, an emptiness, a grief so powerful that for some, it may take years to overcome.

You become a non-entity: a walking death. Your body becomes a waste receptacle; You are public property, no longer an individual. Your voice...your words, they have no meaning. What is left is an aimless shell, void of humanity. Disposable.

When I was working through my experience, I would have a reoccurring nightmare of a non-descript, maimed woman with bloody matted hair. I would wake up thinking of this image and the complete worthlessness associated with her.
Later on, I read a quote attributed to Kipling that described this image perfectly:

(Women are)..."a rag, and a bone, and a hank of hair."

When I read that, I thought it described my dream perfectly. I also thought that it summarized the effects of sexual abuse. It takes everything from you and that's what's left...a rag, a bone, and a hank of hair.

But thank God he has brought great healing into my life. I think my life still reflects my experience because experiences make us who we are. But I have been blessed and healed in abundance. I am no longer a victim.



You wrote:

I AM saying that acting in a manner that inspires lust has consequences. It may be that a woman is thought of as a base person. It may be she is treated as a bimbo. It may be, in the right context, rape.

Yes, there are people in the world who will think these things. But we as Christians, however, get the privilege of looking beneath and beyond the surface. We can be nurturers in spite of the obvious. We know the value of these women, even when they don't recognize it themselves, even when they act in self-destructive ways. Even when they are prostitutes and "proud of it!"


Thanks for reading,

Joy Martinez
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Post I feel I am listening to a DemLib Defense Attorney gocart 7 1/2
like John Edwards (NC ultra liberal Democratic senator and vp candidate with Kerry-Heniz in'04) with a question like that. In the eyes of the law when a woman says no this means NO! It is irrelevent how she is dressed or what her profession happens to be. No = No. You sound like a Kennedy hired liberal defense attorney in a rape trail trying to create the impression for the jury that any woman that would dress a certain way and is employed as a stripper is just asking for it. Ergo, she is not a human being and deserve what she gets for her actions. What kind of cave man mentality is this? No = No

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Post Re: Are All Rapes Created Equal? gocart 7 1/2
Quote:
I am NOT saying that it's OK to rape a woman because of her line of profession. I AM saying that if that woman's ACTIONS (not her profession) serve to be provocative and otherwise inviting of sexually-charged behavior, then there are mitigating circumstances surrounding the matter. It's still wrong. Still criminal. Still deserving of punishment.



What you are trying to do is justify man acting like an insticutal animal unable to rise above base nature. You souond like a member of a Kennedy defense team


Senator Teddy Kennedy, wearing his controversial neck brace, at the funeral Mass for Mary Jo Kopechne.
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