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Pentecostal: What we ARE NOT
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Post Pentecostal: What we ARE NOT Travis Johnson
First, I'm, not a big fan of the term "Pentecostal." Nor, am I a fan of the term Charismatic. I feel they are incomplete or inaccurate representations of our experience. I have yet to meet a person who has had a "Pentecostal" experience where A) tongues of fire sat on their head and B) where they spoke in Spanish as the Spirit gave the utterance.

I think the term "Continuationist" is more representative of my experience and the experience of our denomination. But, that is my personal struggle and observation.

In other threads, Yo Dude, the Old Timer, and a few other guys are railing on the younger generation and some other people they've deemed failures at carrying the Scriptures forward faithfully. The definitions Yo Dude is using for Pentecost are hilarious. I'd like to counter those cultural definitions with some of my observations of what Pentecost is not. IT IS NOT:

-fiery, screaming preaching
-sweating preachers
-exuberant music and singing
-shouting
-a choir that grooves to the beat
-a pin-striped 4 button suit with matching hanky and tie
-a pastor that has an armor bearer
-hyper-prosperity, money grubbing offerings

Being a Pentecostal is about:

-supernatural power from the Holy Spirit to reach lost people
-rescuing the man in the ditch that all the religious neat freaks would prefer to pass by
-expecting the transformational power of the Holy Spirit to visit people who were strangers to the Gospel regardless of where they are from and who they are
-continuing in the work of the Holy Spirit expecting to hear Him speak to people's lives through the Charismatic gifts
-not being afraid of unplanned interruptions but also not living for those moments.


My biggest concern for "Pentecostalism" is an obsession with the initial evidence at the expense of the substantial evidence. I don't dispute the initial physical evidence. But, I DO dispute the doctrine of the initial evidence if there is no substantial evidence of the Holy Spirit. How can we have churches full of "tongue talkers" who are gutless, passionless unreaching people? What does it matter if we "get the gift" but don't use it? Have we truly received the empowerment if we haven't and don't use it?

A Spirit Empowered church is a church that engages lost people with the gusto, that charges hell with a squirt gun, that rescues the hell bound without fear, that loves their neighbor recklessly and is willing to endure all kinds of foolishness so that the Kingdom of God can be expanded. A Spirit Empowered Church teaches fully what the Holy Spirit imparts to us. That teaching goes far beyond shouting, fiery preaching, sweating preachers, and exuberant music. That teaching goes into the neighborhood, the barrio, the ghetto, the grocery store, the school, the workplace, the doctor's office, the family and changes culture from within.

The Spirit empowered believer is an undercover agent doing espionage and razing hell wherever he goes.
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3/26/08 10:38 am


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Post TRAVIS Phil Hoover
just hit a HOMERUN...

A GRANDSLAM Homerun at that....
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Post Travis... Yo Dude
Bro, have you read the book of Acts? These Pentecostals did all the "extreme" things you mention in reaching their world.

Further, you are creating a straw man in your argument against certain things. You would have everyone think, apparently, that a traditional Pentecostal is only concerned with tongues. Travis, I don't know of a SINGLE Church of God minister who does not also think that should be accompanied by a changed life!

As I put it elsewhere, I think Azusa Street is probably the best modern-day model of Pentecost. THAT outpouring crossed racial lines, reached further and further, and eventually circled the earth. All while being manifestly Pentecostal!

Quite trying new models--just try to be like that one, and the job will get done.


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3/26/08 10:56 am


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Post Re: Pentecostal: What we ARE NOT mytimewillcome
Travis Johnson wrote:
First, I'm, not a big fan of the term "Pentecostal." Nor, am I a fan of the term Charismatic. I feel they are incomplete or inaccurate representations of our experience. I have yet to meet a person who has had a "Pentecostal" experience where A) tongues of fire sat on their head and B) where they spoke in Spanish as the Spirit gave the utterance.


A Spirit Empowered church is a church that engages lost people with the gusto, that charges hell with a squirt gun


Could this be Travis' response to Kevin Wallace's post? Laughing You have to see the irony in that (see Travis' Dr. McGuire vs. Dr. Moore theory). And, maybe I'm the only one, but I am not charging the gates of hell with a dad-blame squirt gun. I may be the only one but I read things in the Bible about violence and taking things by force. Maybe you have a spiritual squirt gun but the Holy Ghost I have is like a spiritual M1A1 Tank busting down walls and blowing stuff up. You can keep your mamby-pamby squirt gun.
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3/26/08 10:58 am


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Post Re: Pentecostal: What we ARE NOT Travis Johnson
mytimewillcome wrote:
Could this be Travis' response to Kevin Wallace's post? Laughing You have to see the irony in that (see Travis' Dr. McGuire vs. Dr. Moore theory). And, maybe I'm the only one, but I am not charging the gates of hell with a dad-blame squirt gun. I may be the only one but I read things in the Bible about violence and taking things by force. Maybe you have a spiritual squirt gun but the Holy Ghost I have is like a spiritual M1A1 Tank busting down walls and blowing stuff up. You can keep your mamby-pamby squirt gun.


I posted this before I saw Kevin's post. Then, I responded directly to Kevin. He's my friend and gave an excellent position. He's to be commended, loved, and appreciated. He's an excellent gentleman with a passion for souls and a love for Jesus. I'm proud to be affiliated with him. And, I'm proud of him for having the guts to use his name and write to people with respect for their person.
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3/26/08 11:19 am


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Post Travis, fire-starter
What about exorcisms? Do these occur at your church? Shouldn't we expect that, after the model of the New Testament church? Acts Enthusiast
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3/26/08 11:21 am


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Post Re: Travis... Travis Johnson
Yo Dude wrote:
Bro, have you read the book of Acts?


yes.

Quote:
These Pentecostals did all the "extreme" things you mention in reaching their world.


So, you assert that a person is Pentecostal because of cultural expression or reaction to the Holy Spirit? Their demonstration, tone, and mannerisms make them Pentecostal?

Quote:
Further, you are creating a straw man in your argument against certain things. You would have everyone think, apparently, that a traditional Pentecostal is only concerned with tongues.


I have never on any post in the history of Actscelerate belittled anyone for being traditional. Nor, have I ever equated traditional Pentecostals with only being concerned with tongues.

Quote:
As I put it elsewhere, I think Azusa Street is probably the best modern-day model of Pentecost. THAT outpouring crossed racial lines, reached further and further, and eventually circled the earth. All while being manifestly Pentecostal!


Have you been to Azusa Street? I have. And, while I love Los Angeles and what God is doing there currently, I do not want to replicate a 1900's urban Los Angeles experience. I want a Campbell DR. Homestead/Miami experience...a 2008 moving of the Holy Spirit. What I'm seeing is a Gospel reaching across racial, cultural, and socio-economic lines with over 40 nationalities present every Sunday.

Grant McClung, author of "Azusa Street and Beyond" spoke for us earlier this year. A former heroine addict who still bares the marks of a very bold Pentagram on his neck sat right in front of him. This week, we had a former Benedictine Monk running our sound system on Easter morning! This guy is 60 and he has had a radical run in with a revolutionary Jesus.

Last night in my life group, a young lady shared that one year ago she came to our church suicidal because her husband left her and their 1 year old baby and she found an amazing Jesus and a lot of love. Three weeks ago, she and her husband stopped divorce proceedings and moved back in together. Two weeks ago, he came to church. On Easter, he brought his whole family. God is saving this entire family. That story is repeated over and over and over.

The Holy Spirit is moving aggressively throughout our church.

Quote:
Quite trying new models--just try to be like that one, and the job will get done.


I don't know that you are really in the position to determine what our model is or to give us consulting advice about what works. We have a very high view of Scripture and do not water it down in any way, shape, or form. We aren't playing games either. We're asking for God to do these three things:

1. Raze Hell.
2. Make it hard for people to go to hell from Homestead.
3. Make Homestead Heaven on Earth for as many people as possible, regardless of the personal hell they may be living in.

The Holy Spirit is in the middle of this. We welcome His move and His presence wherever and whenever He wants. I'd love for you to visit and see for yourself. I still believe the broad brushing of good men when you haven't been to their churches and have not looked them in the eye isn't the most productive thing we can be doing for this very good discussion that needs to be taking place.
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Post Re: Pentecostal: What we ARE NOT daddyohohoh
mytimewillcome wrote:
And, maybe I'm the only one, but I am not charging the gates of hell with a dad-blame squirt gun. I may be the only one but I read things in the Bible about .violence and taking things by force


If your reference to " violence and taking things by force" is a reference to this scripture....you have taken it way out of context.

Quote:
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.

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Post Azusa Street vs. Pentecostalism Louis Morgan
Azusa Street was a wonderful, spiritual outpouring that gave impetus to most of our denominations that embrace the Pentecostal experience and lifestyle. It has indeed fueled a missionary movement that helped spread the message of Christ. Many of those who received the Holy Spirit baptism at Azusa were missionaries of the "one-way ticket" (going to the mission field and not returning). I believe it was a divine move of God, and I believe the Kingdom of God has advanced because of it.

I would agree that power accompanies the Pentecostal experience. I believe individuals respond to the Spirit's work in different ways. some shout; some do not. To me, being Pentecostal has less to do with the volume of the preaching and more of the impact of one's life witness.

And, I would suggest what fueled the Azusa outpouring was the humility, spiritual hunger, and intense prayer life of the leaders. There is something powerful about the humility of a pastor who is willing to get on his knees and weep before the Lord with his head in a crate (so he would not be distracted by things happening around him). Azusa Street also had an upper prayer room, where many individuals received personal counseling and "prayed through" to the Holy Spirit-baptism. Not everything happened out in the open, although much of it did. Reading the biographies and testimonies of those early participants points to one thing-- not an emphasis on signs as much as a hunger for God. I believe signs and wonders will confirm the preached Word. It may or may not happen within the church service, but the signs will accompany the Word. And, these individuals were extremely diverse in their doctrinal stance and worship expressions.

I believe the Pentecostal experience is given to us to (1) give us power to personally live according to the commandments of Christ and (2) empower us to continue the work Christ began on earth. To me, that is what it means to be Pentecostal. The worship/preaching style has less to do with that than the lifestyle. I'm not opposed to someone shouting, preaching loud, or dancing-- but many holiness adherents who are not Pentecostal do that. Also, many religions other than Christianity experience these same manifestations. Those are worship expressions and are valid, but they are not what it means to be Pentecostal. Someone who does not worship in this same style can still be as much baptized with the Holy Spirit as one who expresses himself or herself more openly.

I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the "Pentecostal" experience. I believe Azusa Street was powerful. It was a place where race, gender, ethnicity, education, social status, etc. were washed away in the Blood of Christ. (I also would suggest that much of the emotional expressions of worship came out of the holiness worship services prior to the Pentecostal outpouring, and were just a carry-over of the many holiness adherents who embraced the Pentecostal experience). However, I am concerned with what we have done with the Pentecostal experience through "Pentecostalism." We have made it something it is not.
Before William Seymour died, he felt that much of the Spirit's work at Azusa had been lost. In our "Pentecostalism" we divided the races, put women on the sidelines, and brought further divisions because of our focusing too much on our pet doctrines and worship styles.

While I am not opposed to various expressions of worship, that is not what constitutes the Pentecostal experience. The baptism of the Holy Spirit goes much deeper into the spiritual development and transformation of an individual. And, its results should go much deeper as well.
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3/26/08 11:47 am


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Post J Ryan Herrington
Seriously, can we stop negating "Pentecost" because tongues of fire doesn't appear on our heads anymore. It was the first time the Holy Spirit came on earth. While people by the thousands received the baptism in the book of Acts, we never see tongues of fire again. It doesn't negate Pentecost. Why are we Pentecostal? Because we believe God still moves today as He did on the day of Pentecost i.e. speaking in tongues and evangelism.

To continue to use this train of thought is like saying we're not really Christians because Christ isn't crucified anew everytime a sinner decides come to Him.

Some things happened one time to start a movement. The fact that the same occurence doesn't continue to happen every single time a subsequent occurence takes place doesn't negate the original event.

Other than that, I agree with a lot of what you're saying as well Travis. I just hate when people feel they can negate Pentecost because we don't have tongues of fire. I believe Paul was probably more Pentecostal than many and a tongue of fire never sat on his head and he never experienced a rushing mighty wind.
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3/26/08 11:58 am


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Post Travis Johnson
J Ryan Herrington wrote:
Seriously, can we stop negating "Pentecost" because tongues of fire doesn't appear on our heads anymore. It was the first time the Holy Spirit came on earth. While people by the thousands received the baptism in the book of Acts, we never see tongues of fire again. It doesn't negate Pentecost. Why are we Pentecostal? Because we believe God still moves today as He did on the day of Pentecost i.e. speaking in tongues and evangelism.

To continue to use this train of thought is like saying we're not really Christians because Christ isn't crucified anew everytime a sinner decides come to Him.

Some things happened one time to start a movement. The fact that the same occurence doesn't continue to happen every single time a subsequent occurence takes place doesn't negate the original event.

Other than that, I agree with a lot of what you're saying as well Travis. I just hate when people feel they can negate Pentecost because we don't have tongues of fire. I believe Paul was probably more Pentecostal than many and a tongue of fire never sat on his head and he never experienced a rushing mighty wind.


Ryan,

I'm not negating the Feast/Day of Pentecost, the day that the Holy Spirit fell in the Upper Room. All I'm saying in that regard is that the term "Pentecostal" applied to our experience is an incomplete, potentially inaccurate term.

My experience is an experience of receiving the Holy Spirit and speaking in a heavenly language. That was the continuing work of the Holy Spirit outside of the Day of Pentecost and in a way that is different that what happened on that day operating in my life.

I've never negated what happened on the Day of Pentecost. I've just never spoken in Spanish as the Spirit gave the utterance. Any Spanish I've picked up has been hard work on my part. That earthly language transference hasn't been normative. So, I don't see that term as accurately capturing what you and I have experienced. That's why I prefer the term Continuationist.
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3/26/08 12:20 pm


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Post KevinWallace
Trav,
Hey bro I completely concur with all your points about what it means TO BE Pentecostal...I very respectfully disagree with a number of your points about what it is not to be pentecostal

sweating preacher- Some how it appears to me that intensity and volume and even zeal is to foten condemned and written off as misguided passion. In fact preachers who sweat and get loud and manifest in passionate manners are usually stereotyped as shallow, feeling oriented preachers that have nothing to say. To the contrary, what I have to say (when I preach) releases the passion, is demonstrated in zeal and could even be classified as emotional. Why? Because the content of that message has manifested itself first within my heart. As it comes out in demonstration it is intense. I sweat not because being baptized in the Holy Spirit makes me sweat more...but the power and passion He poured in the day I received the Holy Ghost causes an intensity and river of living water to flow within...as I let it out I sweat, holler and a number of other unconscious responses to the Power of God moving in my heart.

Suit wearing- You got me here. Certainly do not have to wear a suit w/ pin stripes to be pentecostal. As long as what your wearing doesn't transform your spiritual identity. I am going to try cargo pants and flip flops and document the results ... I predict the same thing.

Armor bearer- I have 4 kids, 2 sunday morn services, 3 times of morning prayer on Sunday, I sit in the crowd with my people (b/c I believe a good shepherd ought to smell like sheep), a host of weekly announcements, a message to ponder over and over in my mind...I want to be fresh and ready. My dad is my armour bearer and he simply makes Sunday morn more doable for me and my family. Are there exremes? Sure! But tasteful servanthood and tender care are always scriptural and helpful.


Love ya trav...
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3/26/08 12:41 pm


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Post Just as the believers were first called Randy Johnson
Christians at Antioch (by their opponents I believe, not themselves), has anyone researched when and where the term "Pentecostal" originated? Was it a title adopted by the Church, or an epithet given them by others?

Travis, I applaud you for clarifying your position. There is nothing in your posting that anyone should object to. I think the problems you mentioned regarding the failure of Pentecostals to be empowered witnesses is more a discipleship problem than a doctrinal problem.
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3/26/08 12:43 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
Kev,

You sweat. You wear a suit. You are passionate when you preach. Your dad is your armor bearer. But, these things make not a Pentecostal. You are a Pentecostal who does these things.

I don't have an armor bearer. I have a Production Manager. I don't wear a suit except when I'm preaching in a place that would receive me better in a suit. I too am passionate when I speak...in a different way than you. These thing make not a Pentecostal. I am a Pentecostal who does these things.

We fit our cultures, Pentecostals who are not defined by the tone, dress, personality, culture, or locale. We're defined by the words of Jesus, waiting for the power of the Holy Spirit to be poured out on us to go and reach our worlds, whether our worlds are in the Smokey Mountains or in the most stress-filled, most road raging city in the USA...my lovely hometown of Homestead/Miami.
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3/26/08 12:49 pm


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Post mytimewillcome
Call this post what you want but it seems that Travis is continuing his display of subtle under-the-radar pompous arrogance even though he will claim its not. Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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3/26/08 12:59 pm


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Post J Ryan Herrington
Travis Johnson wrote:

Ryan,

I'm not negating the Feast/Day of Pentecost, the day that the Holy Spirit fell in the Upper Room. All I'm saying in that regard is that the term "Pentecostal" applied to our experience is an incomplete, potentially inaccurate term.

My experience is an experience of receiving the Holy Spirit and speaking in a heavenly language. That was the continuing work of the Holy Spirit outside of the Day of Pentecost and in a way that is different that what happened on that day operating in my life.

I've never negated what happened on the Day of Pentecost. I've just never spoken in Spanish as the Spirit gave the utterance. Any Spanish I've picked up has been hard work on my part. That earthly language transference hasn't been normative. So, I don't see that term as accurately capturing what you and I have experienced. That's why I prefer the term Continuationist.


I understand what you're saying and agree with you to an extent. I just don't see the difference in being Pentecostal or a "Continuationist" as you call it. We do continue in the movement of Pentecost, thereby making us "Pentecostals." I don't so much know if its the phrasology that is an issue as it is the knowledge of who we are and what it means if you get what I'm saying. Somebody may be AG and someone else may be COG but we still believe in Pentecost. So if you're a Continuationist and Im a Pentecostal, what's the difference?
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3/26/08 1:14 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
J Ryan Herrington wrote:
I just don't see the difference in being Pentecostal or a "Continuationist" as you call it. We do continue in the movement of Pentecost, thereby making us "Pentecostals." I don't so much know if its the phrasology that is an issue as it is the knowledge of who we are and what it means if you get what I'm saying. Somebody may be AG and someone else may be COG but we still believe in Pentecost. So if you're a Continuationist and Im a Pentecostal, what's the difference?


Ryan,

Really its just words. But, words are important. Pentecost is an Old Testament Feast. As a Pentecostal, I've never waved a sheaf offering of the first fruits on the day after the Sabbath and eat unleavened bread for 7 days straight. If we were truly people "of Pentecost," wouldn't we do that?

I am a person of the Spirit. Had the Holy Spirit come on Thanksgiving, I would still be a person of the Spirit, continuing to operate in His power.

What's the difference? Maybe none. But, I know I want to move beyond the Upper Room and beyond the Day of Pentecost and also get out into the streets among the people.
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3/26/08 1:27 pm


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Post KevinWallace
Trav,

Point well taken.

You said "... these things make me not Pentecostal. I am a Pentecostal who does [u]these things.

This is my point exactly. Why are the emergent churches trying to change the "these things" about the Pentecostal church. The only reason we do
"these things" is because of The One who has filled us with His Power from Heaven. Brother Stanley and I preach differently b/c we view the Book of Acts and the rest of Spirit-filled scripture in different ways. I believe (and you do to) that the Holy Ghost is still moving and reviving and changing people. People baptized in the Holy Ghost will speak in tongues. I believe they do it initially. I am still meditating on your quote about about "initial" not "substantial". I would prefer to say "initial" not the 'only' evidence. I think we go to far if we are saying by that, that tongues are not substantial. Tongues are certainly substantial.

Also, I refuse to make this issue about suits and ties or blue jeans and flip flops. It is so much more than being relevant. It is what we do when our relevance gains us a place of voice and influence that I am concerned about. We can be culturally hip and spiritually dead. We can be cool and still be cold. Likewise we could be hollering and saying nothing and dancing a be a million miles from God. The point is these extremes do not negate the authenticity of those who are overflowing with passion, zeal and power.

[/u]
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Post mytimewillcome
Maybe we should start a point system like Calvanism for the doctrines of pentecostalism that way some of the people on here, no names mentioned of course, could be a 3 or 4 point Pentecostal instead of a full 5 pointer. Laughing Rolling Eyes Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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Post DHDRabbi
Quote:
These Pentecostals did all the "extreme" things you mention in reaching their world.


Have you read 1st and 2nd Corinthians? Paul spends time fixing those extreme things.
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