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 C'mon 12thman |
stp89 |
Perhaps this thread should be renamed "If you're not a fan of Osteen...you just don't get it" 
Or how about: "Are you mature enough to allow differences of opinion in others?"
Just messin' with ya 12th man...cool your jets Bro  |
Acts Enthusiast
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3/18/06 2:16 pm
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| here's a shocker |
12thman |
just so you know, my jets are not on. I'm not fired up. I certainly didn't intend to start yet another thread about JO and Lakewood. That's been way over done. Let me give you a shocker... I don't personally enjoy JO's program or even his preaching. I don't even own his book, and unless it is gifted to me I never will. It's not my flavor. It's too light and fluffy for my taste. (I can say the same about BG and other highly respected TV pastors/evangelists) However, having several acquaintances on staff at Lakewood and having been in a service or two, I can tell you that what you see that is edited for TV is NOT the full picture of what happens in a church service.
I did start this thread because I see this regular attack on anyone who has reached "mega-church, mega-pastor" status. I just don't get it. It always comes across to me as sour grapes. And to reiterate, I used to have a couple of baskets of sour grapes. Personal preference is a separate issue from questioning the Gospel a man preaches.
I can genuinely say that I would that every Christian pastor grow his church beyond the 2000 (mega-church) barrier. IF we did, we still won't have reached everyone. |
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3/18/06 2:40 pm
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| Re: here's a shocker |
TheoloJohn |
| 12thman wrote: |
I did start this thread because I see this regular attack on anyone who has reached "mega-church, mega-pastor" status. I just don't get it. It always comes across to me as sour grapes. |
Whenever I hear people impute motives like this to my words, I tend to impute motives right back on them--that they are just being defensive, don't like their idols being criticized, and are not even willing to examine the evidence.
If you indeed had the ability to discern the motives of others in such a one-dimensional medium was this, you might have a point. It is simply your unfounded assumption that anyone who criticizes these "mega ministries" is doing so because of "sour grapes." For what possible reason would I be jealous of a man whom I believed wasn't preaching the Gospel of Christ?
Mommy! I want to be just like Joel Osteen! Can I, can I, can I please!?!?
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006
Last edited by TheoloJohn on 3/18/06 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
3/18/06 2:44 pm
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| Re: here we go again... |
TheoloJohn |
| 12thman wrote: | | TheoloJohn wrote: | The dramatic difference between the Acts 2 "mega church" and Lakewood should be obvious to anyone. The early church was not a business venture whose goal was for everyone to get rich.
God soon dispersed the First MegaChurch of Jerusalem by means of persecution, because in staying huddled up in Jerusalem they could not win the world to Christ, nor be obedient to the Great Commission. Jesus had told them to be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost part of the world. |
I just don't get it... Lakewood is a business venture where everyone's goal is to get rich? |
There can be no doubt whatsoever, in any unprejudiced mind, that Joel Osteen's "ministry" is all about money (sometimes cryptically referred to as "success" ). I have watched him many, many times on TV, and can say this without fear of contradiction from any reasonable person.
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
3/18/06 2:47 pm
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| Re: 1st Century Lakewood? |
TheoloJohn |
| Porpoise Driven Neptune wrote: | | TheoloJohn wrote: | The dramatic difference between the Acts 2 "mega church" and Lakewood should be obvious to anyone. The early church was not a business venture whose goal was for everyone to get rich.
God soon dispersed the First MegaChurch of Jerusalem by means of persecution, because in staying huddled up in Jerusalem they could not win the world to Christ, nor be obedient to the Great Commission. Jesus had told them to be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost part of the world. |
Another noticeable difference is that the Jerusalem megachurch does not seem to have been a vehicle to promote one man's ministry. Peter played a leading role, but so did James. |
Excellent point. I agree.
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
3/18/06 2:49 pm
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| Re: No stretch at all |
TheoloJohn |
| 12thman wrote: | | The Early Church was a Mega-Church. That alone is killing some people to have to read! |
No, but your ridiculous unfounded accusations are killing me!
If Joel Osteen were a genuine preacher of the Gospel, any genuine Christian would be overwhelmingly happy about his success.
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
3/18/06 2:51 pm
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| all about |
12thman |
all about money... that sums it up. it's all about money! Every fiber of effort from everyone at Lakewood - money!. You've been able to boil it down to the lowest common denominator. .
Again, JO is not in my list of personal preferences. I would rather watch an episode of the Twilight Zone than listen to a complete sermon. But again, it's my personal preference. I can still rejoice in his success.
I started the thread asking a question that had nothing to do with JO.
So tell me Theolojohn... who is your idol? Is there anyone that you can publicly admire who is successful? This was a thread asking if you are able to rejoice at the success of another. List for us "another" who is experiencing success that you admire. Of course, you can list Jesus... but lots of people will be critical of him. Peter.... he had several shortcomings. Paul.... oh yeah, there was that very public fight he had with Barnabas... besides that he bragged on himself quite a bit. john... some thought he was effeminate referring to himself as the one Jesus loved an all... Is there another you are rejoicing in... that looks a little different than you?! Is it possible there is someone who does it differently than you that you can still give a thumbs up to?
Of course, don't use their financial status as a measurement, or how many come to their church, or how many are getting saved, or any sort of indicator like that. Do what you would really need to do... look into their heart and judge their motives in spite of any measurable indicator. Oh, that's right, you don't do that. |
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3/18/06 3:02 pm
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| Re: No stretch at all |
12thman |
| TheoloJohn wrote: | | If Joel Osteen were a genuine preacher of the Gospel, any genuine Christian would be overwhelmingly happy about his success. |
20 thousand and counting attending his church rejoicing - all fake Christians just wanting to get rich, I'm sure |
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Posts: 49
3/18/06 3:05 pm
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| Re: No stretch at all |
notwanghere |
| 12thman wrote: | | TheoloJohn wrote: | | If Joel Osteen were a genuine preacher of the Gospel, any genuine Christian would be overwhelmingly happy about his success. |
20 thousand and counting attending his church rejoicing - all fake Christians just wanting to get rich, I'm sure |
The motivation of the people never seemed to be an issue. The message being preached was and is the issue. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1794
3/18/06 3:08 pm
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| Re: all about |
TheoloJohn |
Yeah, summation (arriving at a conclusion based on evidence) is something I have a natural inclination towards.
Success for the Christian is definitely not about how wealthy one is.
As far as I know, I don't have any idols, nor should I
I rejoice in the success of Jesus Christ. God forbid that I should glory in anyone else.
As for the fruit of these "mega ministries," God will of course be the final judge of that.
However, Jesus directly charged us to beware of false prophets, and to know that not everyone who says, "Lord, lord" is necessarily even saved, no matter how much apparent "success" their ministry may have:
Mat 7:15 But beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inside they are plundering wolves.
16 From their fruits you shall know them. Do they gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 So every good tree produces good fruits, but the corrupt tree produces evil fruits.
18 A good tree cannot produce evil fruits, nor a corrupt tree produce good fruits.
19 Every tree not producing good fruit is cut down and is thrown into fire.
20 Then surely from their fruits you shall know them.
21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but the ones who do the will of My Father in Heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many works of power?
23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; "depart from Me, those working lawlessness!" LITV
_________________
"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
3/18/06 3:09 pm
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| Re: No stretch at all |
TheoloJohn |
| 12thman wrote: | | TheoloJohn wrote: | | If Joel Osteen were a genuine preacher of the Gospel, any genuine Christian would be overwhelmingly happy about his success. |
20 thousand and counting attending his church rejoicing - all fake Christians just wanting to get rich, I'm sure |
The Pope has Osteen beat by the multiplied millions, if sheer numbers of followers is the measure of true success in God's kingdom.
Romans 2:8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil; of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. NKJV
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
3/18/06 3:12 pm
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Memory03 |
I personally like Joel Osteen. He is not COG. I don't expect him to act COG. We cannot judge the ministry going on in that church by a 30 minute TV program. He is trying to reach people that tradition cannot reach. We don't know what they do in their classrooms and small groups. I know lets send a spy in, let em write a how to book, and they will become a gazillionare, ekoj!
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Be Blessed!
Memory03
8233 post at the original Acts Board...
Real Men get their haircut in a Barber Shop... The rest go to beauty parlors... |
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Posts: 21953
3/18/06 4:00 pm
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| memory 03... |
12thman |
| these guys are like a broken record!. How 'bout you and I start a thread and we can point out all of the great things that so many are doing in the Kingdom! So many awesome people out there doing things of New Testament proportion! The Kingdom is pushing back the gates! 10 mega churches in 1970. Almost 800 as off 2003! Just can't bring myself to say every one of them is doing it to steal old ladies retirement funds or for Self Promotion. I'll be so bold as to say the vast majority are doing it for the right reasons with the purest of motives (as pure as any heart this side of heaven can actually be - which honestly has it's muddy moments from time to time!) |
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3/19/06 10:44 pm
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| Mega (LINKS) |
Pastor Gary |
| 12thman wrote: | | 10 mega churches in 1970. Almost 800 as off 2003! |
Are you counting non-US? Osteen's is big, but there's one just as big in Kiev, Ukraine, pastored by a Nigerian named Sunday Adelaja. 20K members.
http://www.godembassy.org/en/index.php
And The Redeemed Christian Church of God in Nigeria has a monthly Holy Ghost all-night service attended by 500,000. http://home.rccg.org/home.html
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I reserve the right to own my words and thoughts without edits. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3530
3/19/06 11:04 pm
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Land of Middle Girth |
Build it, and they will come...
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"Behold... the Internet." |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1169
3/19/06 11:29 pm
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| Re: Mega (LINKS) |
12thman |
| Pastor Gary wrote: | | 12thman wrote: | | 10 mega churches in 1970. Almost 800 as off 2003! |
Are you counting non-US? Osteen's is big, but there's one just as big in Kiev, Ukraine, pastored by a Nigerian named Sunday Adelaja. 20K members.
http://www.godembassy.org/en/index.php
And The Redeemed Christian Church of God in Nigeria has a monthly Holy Ghost all-night service attended by 500,000. http://home.rccg.org/home.html |
Sorry Pastor Gary... that's only in the US. Those stats don't begin to touch the world. David Cho must be a real fleecer of old ladies retirement accounts! Funny, but has anyone noticed that those Mega-Pastors in the US draw all the criticism - bunch of rich kids!
I wish it counted the world! Don't you find it ironic that some of the greatest success (there I go using that word... making every body nervous again) is coming out of Australia... the one time prison for the entire planet. God has a wonderful sense of humor! Out of the ashes he brings beauty. Sounds like God is a bit sarcastic to me! I think I like Him... alot! |
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Posts: 49
3/20/06 10:57 am
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TheoloJohn |
I don't see where anyone has said that these "mega" ministries are in all cases guilty of fleecing old ladies. That entirely depends on the individual ministry.
There's almost nothing as immature as someone who thinks his idols are absolutely above criticism, and that anyone who would have the gall to criticize the likes of Joel Osteen is just jealous or envious.
_________________
"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
3/20/06 5:08 pm
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12thman |
| TheoloJohn wrote: | I don't see where anyone has said that these "mega" ministries are in all cases guilty of fleecing old ladies. That entirely depends on the individual ministry.
There's almost nothing as immature as someone who thinks his idols are absolutely above criticism, and that anyone who would have the gall to criticize the likes of Joel Osteen is just jealous or envious. |
I just want to know who your guy is so we can see who the true-blue real men of God are. You have been pretty critical about so many, but you've yet to tell me who you admire. You're not afraid that your guy will cause us to get a hernia laughing are you? Or is it that you have no guy... I know, I know... it's Jesus. That's a given. But do you have anyone. Of course, I plan to sift him/her with the same "un-biased" filter that you use. |
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3/20/06 7:43 pm
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TheoloJohn |
| 12thman wrote: | | TheoloJohn wrote: | I don't see where anyone has said that these "mega" ministries are in all cases guilty of fleecing old ladies. That entirely depends on the individual ministry.
There's almost nothing as immature as someone who thinks his idols are absolutely above criticism, and that anyone who would have the gall to criticize the likes of Joel Osteen is just jealous or envious. |
I just want to know who your guy is so we can see who the true-blue real men of God are. You have been pretty critical about so many, but you've yet to tell me who you admire. You're not afraid that your guy will cause us to get a hernia laughing are you? Or is it that you have no guy... I know, I know... it's Jesus. That's a given. But do you have anyone. Of course, I plan to sift him/her with the same "un-biased" filter that you use. |
Like I said, I don't have any idols. I also don't play silly "my guy's better than your guy" games. Grow up.
_________________
"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
3/20/06 11:05 pm
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12thman |
you just can't give an answer can you...
it's not a "my guy is better than your guy." I'm just dying to hear you speak well of any specific minister of the gospel. I don't know if you can bring yourself to do it, and I don't blame you. with your blatant repeated disrespect directed at specific ministers, any minister you name is going to bring a number of people out of the woodwork just to do unto you as you have done to others. Fling dung... get dung flung back! there are a lot of guys that have gotten accolades for various aspects of their ministries on these pages and rightly so. but all you can do is spew bile on them. I've yet to hear you compliment a single specific individual as a successful man of God.
do us all a favor. we know you have no idols! you keep saying that. tell us the name of at least one person that we all know that you consider to be successful in ministry. this whole thread was entitled 'can you rejoice at the success of another?' can you? and if you can, give us a name!
Last edited by 12thman on 3/20/06 11:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Posts: 49
3/20/06 11:32 pm
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