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Travis Johnson |
| punderwood wrote: | Travis,
With all due respect, the organization probably does not have 65 capable church planters that are as culturally sensitive and adaptable as needed for such a venture.
Your tenets,
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-a single state with 10 properties for sale (assuming they were only valued at an average of $500,000), could plant 65 significant new churches.
-a pipeline of church planters who have received training and are in coaching relationships with year 1-5 church planters is critical. |
This is definitely a long-term proposition with where the organization is today and the pathos that is instilled. You, and others like you, are anomalies in this big pond. The operation of your design should not be handled centrally but by an effective group of practitioners that are already in the pool and splashing around. |
Phil,
Check this out:
PROPERTY SALES
We have 18 properties up for sale right now in Florida. The properties are in the pipeline.
ATTRACTING CHURCH PLANTERS
I'd agree that we probably would have an issue attracting planters since starting healthy, new intentional church plants hasn't been a part of our DNA. That isn't to say that it can't be done. Florida is doing some good work in this area with the establishing and re-establishing of new churches. Martin Taylor deserves the credit for making this happen.
Dwight Allen, Earl Cushman, Oz Ramkisoon, and myself also spoke in depth to this issue in a meeting with Waymon Miller concerning the proceeds from the West Miami COG. I still have the original hand written notes from that meeting. A lot of good came out of that meeting.
Previously, John Walker, in a meeting with south Florida pastors from Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties, promised that 100% of those funds would be spent on church planting in Miami. While that didn't happen, about $400,000 of that money was spent on the intentional church planting project initiated by Martin Taylor. I suspect that much of the money from the West Miami COG was gone before Bro. Taylor arrived here.
That doesn't mean everything is rosy. But, it beats the heck out of where we have been only a few years ago as we sat on our hands and did little beyond lip service towards establishing new churches. It also demonstrates where we can go if we have the guts to attach our names to our ideas and expect people to do the right thing with the resources God has entrusted us with.
I firmly believe that God will fill a vacuum. If we move forward in this area and LEAD, we can create the vacuum and attract the planters. If we build it, they will come...or maybe they will come back...or maybe we can tie off the femoral artery where the children of the COG will stop leaving the COG to go work in networks and fellowships that have a healthier appreciation for the mandate of Jesus as found in Matthew 28:19-20.
LEADERSHIP OF A STATE OVERSEER OR A STATE COUNCIL
I have been told by someone that is very in touch with our system and Minutes that a State Council can mandate that properties sold in their state must be spent in church planting. A state overseer can lead a council to do this as well. There has to be an individual of courage that will advocate and vocalize this broadly to change our culture.
Make the council go on the record and pound that idea home. Use publications, blogs, Actscelerate, phone conversations, and relationships to drive it home. Marginalize the guys on the State Councils who are there solely for personal advancement and who shift with the wind and who have few principles beyond self-promotion. By mandating that activity, church planting will be forced to rise to the #1 priority.
Otherwise, we will continue to sell properties and they will be treated as discretionary funds being spent by people who haven't lifted a finger to develop those assets. Under that arrangement, the missionof Jesus is subordinated to inconsequential minutia of our burgeoning bureaucratic machinery. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
1/31/08 10:12 am
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| Re: Travis, Just a Reminder |
Travis Johnson |
| mytwocents wrote: | I'm not good a posting quotes, but in your reply regarding COG debt you said in effect headquarters got themselves into that debt, let them get out of it.
I'm sure some of the debt was from poor decisions at the top. The debt I speak of eliminating is the debt owed on the expansion of the offices at general headquarter, a debt that WE got ourselves into. This debt was approved by the GENERAL ASSEMBLY, so WE have the obligation to retire it. Retire that debt and then fund church planting 100% would be my thoughts. |
The General Assembly voted for that. And, it is to be funded by the tax collected from local churches...not from selling the churches, some of which may have been killed by the exorbitant tax. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
1/31/08 10:15 am
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| Re: Who will coordinate the events and so forth? |
Telecaster |
| Matt Boyd wrote: | Telecaster,
Top down programs that are initiated by HQ are a big part of the problem. Each department provides programs that they decide we in the field need. The unique needs and culture of each district/state should be focused upon in hopes to reach the lost of that area. Local churches and districts can come up with mission trips, youth conferences men’s conference etc on their own. If we have to have to bring our people to something with a superstar Christian who charges a lot of money we could plan together to bring our people to one of their events that is not sponsored by the COG. We would save thousands of dollars that could be used to for the mission!
We could call it empowering those on the mission field of America! Each state overseer could work with each district and dream with those pastors and evangelists about how they could reach their specific community, ask God for a vision, partner with other churches and denominations in that district and win that district for Christ.
When we stop focusing on who gets the credit and who’s church the person attends we will start doing the work of the Kingdom of God instead of the Kingdom of the Church of God. After God has given the vision, State Overseers could meet with leaders in Cleveland and present these initiatives for their districts then the millions of dollars that were spent on giant events, conferences and salaries for these department heads and their staff can be distributed to the states to empower the local ministers to reach their communities and plant new churches. |
I think maybe my point earlier is misunderstood. I'm not saying the reason we should keep the Evangelistic department alive is for us to have conferences and ministries and so forth. Indeed, our churches can do those things and should do those things.
Your idea of the Kingdom of God will never appear on this earth. Again, we're talking about a utopian idea. There will always be Baptists and there will always be Methodists and there will always be Pentecostals. Is that a problem? No I don't think so. I think the problem comes when we spend so much time and energy supposedly building the Kingdom of God by trying to unite ourselves together as churches. That's not Kingdom work. While two churches unite and the numbers look good, the harvest is still out there waiting to join the kingdom.
I make no bones about it. I'm Church of God. I'm proud to be Church of God. I don't ever plan on leaving the Church of God unless it becomes something other than the Church of God. I'm all about building the Kingdom of the Church of God as you put it. That's why I'm in this denomination. I do want the Church of God to grow. I believe it represents the closest declaration of faith and beliefs to the Bible as I understand it and study it. Therefore, I do want it to grow. I want my church to grow as well. I want the Baptist church down the street to grow, but my focus is on my church mostly. I can't pastor someone else's church for them. Indeed if every church would attempt to reap the harvest, then and only then, will the Kingdom of God be built for the Kingdom is made up of the harvest and not a conglomaration of churches who have merged or declared a generic doctrine.
The Evangelism Department is doing the work you're stating the State Overseer should be doing. He is promoting evangelism and church plants and church growth seminars that are relevant. Our state evangelism director is the best in the business, or kindgom for this conversation, if you ask me. These conferences aren't about celebrity. They are about reaching people. If indeed you believe they are all about celebrity, then I assume you don't let your groups go to Winterfest and you yourself don't go to Campmeeting and other things. It's not celebrity friend. It's ministry and while I do know that sometimes these things go over the top and a person can get just as much of a blessing in a smaller environment, we cannot discount the power of a conference to take people out of their comfortable surroundings and put them in a place where thousands of men or women or teens have gathered to proclaim Christ.
Sometimes we just need an Elijah experience because we feel like we're all alone where we are even though we know down the street there is another Christian. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
1/31/08 10:15 am
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| Re: Phil |
prefontaine |
| COG TODAY wrote: | I disagree
I think we could find 100 people who are culturely sensitive and adaptable as you say it within months that would sign up to plant a church if they knew there was going to be a significant investment in their church plant. Most people I know that consider planting hesitate because of funding.
Do you travel outside the southern COG states? What do you mean by culturely sensitive and adaptable? Are you suggesting that someone who is classically pentecostal & believes in holiness cannot be those things? |
It may be that we have 100 people that THINK they are capable of planting a church, but I agree that I don't know that we have 65 people that will 1)truly do a great job, 2) are willing to make the sacrifice to do it, or 3) are properly trained or equipped to do it.
I'd like to think of myself as a qualified church planter, but I know that if I were told to plant a church tomorrow, there is no way that I'm ready for that kind fo move. I am not trained enough, and right now, my heart isn't in the place to dedicate the time and effort it takes to do that. I want to be in that place in the very near future, but I know that it's a TON of hard work planting a church, and right now, I've got so much else on my plate that thinking about that scares me.
I also like what Travis said about planting 'upstream'. I have a friend planting in the Seattle area. It doesn't get much more 'upstream' than Seattle. Home of Microsoft, who owns or is in partnership with almost every big technological advace right now. A city that has far too few churches, and far too many sinners. A city that cranks out music that changes music for a time: Jimi Hendrix, Pearl Jam, Nirvana...Truth be told, I think that southern California may be the only place that is consistantly ahead of Seattle when it comes to trend setting. Those are the places we need to be. The nice thing about large cities is that any idiot - given the proper tools - can go rattle some pans together and get 300 people in their church...there are millions to be had.
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clintwills.blogspot.com |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5103
1/31/08 11:10 am
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| Re: Phil |
Travis Johnson |
| prefontaine wrote: | | The nice thing about large cities is that any idiot - given the proper tools - can go rattle some pans together and get 300 people in their church...there are millions to be had. |
You had me in agreement with you until this last statement. Seattle and Miami are the two most Gospel resistant cities in the USA statistically. Idiots rattling pans won't get it done here. In fact, it may not even get it done in Atlanta or Charlotte, two of the most Gospel accepting cities in the USA.
There are millions to be had. But, just because they are there, doesn't mean you have their permission to talk to them, the influence to speak Jesus with them effectively, or the leadership capacity to keep 300.
After 4 years of chipping away, we are approaching 400. Its taken every ounce of discipline, prayer, ministry, strategy, leadership capacity, and relational influence I have to break through the barriers that faced us along the way to get to this place. Even still, looking back, I have seen God's hand in the middle of it and in spite of our bumbling errors.
It comes easy for some guys...very few. Some people are gifted and oozing with leadership capital. Some people have to work hard at it. I work at it. I get up earlier than most, read more than most, and obsess over mission. It keeps me up at night with my one track mind trying to figure out how we can create a movement in this city for the Kingdom of Jesus. But, far more importantly, God has been in the middle of what we're doing. We're extremely blessed to have had the modest success that we have had in a county of 4,000,000+.
I'm definitely faring better here than when I was in Chicago, an area of 8,000,000 plus. I worked hard there also. But, things didn't turn out so well the first time. Idiots slinging PLEASE SELECT ANOTHER WORD at a wall, hoping something will stick isn't going to cut it. Besides, the mission is much more important than that. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
1/31/08 2:18 pm
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ChurchAhMahGod |
I'm a church planter, that has planted two churches in another denomination. Now, I'm at the jumping off place of another church plant. I'm leaning AWAY from the Church of God because...
1. I feel led to plant in Florida. I don't want the insurance liability that has just been brought into play.
2. I don't, after working for years for a successful church, want to surrender my property deed to "the machine." I find that distasteful and counter-productive for the morale of any church.
3. Why purposely submit to the non-biblical tithe of tithe percentage.
I find that the possibilities are endless. Smaller para-church organizations will offer an umbrella of tax shelter, and protection with minimal expense for dues. This and your church gets to keep its property, and maintains full autonomy.
So, while I know Church Planting is what the COG needs, I can't see that the package is being made ATTRACTIVE enough for the hassle.
And let me tell you this; I've taken several desperately bad situations with the promise of financing from the State Office. Never saw it. We pulled them out of the fire ourselves, and struggled every step of the way doing so. I am not putting an OUNCE of faith in any State Office for subsidy in a church.
So I'm up in the air. I've been offered State funding for Church planting. Not sure that I want it.  |
Friendly Face
Posts: 208
1/31/08 2:18 pm
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| Re: Phil |
prefontaine |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | prefontaine wrote: | | The nice thing about large cities is that any idiot - given the proper tools - can go rattle some pans together and get 300 people in their church...there are millions to be had. |
You had me in agreement with you until this last statement. Seattle and Miami are the two most Gospel resistant cities in the USA statistically. Idiots rattling pans won't get it done here. In fact, it may not even get it done in Atlanta or Charlotte, two of the most Gospel accepting cities in the USA.
There are millions to be had. But, just because they are there, doesn't mean you have their permission to talk to them, the influence to speak Jesus with them effectively, or the leadership capacity to keep 300.
After 4 years of chipping away, we are approaching 400. Its taken every ounce of discipline, prayer, ministry, strategy, leadership capacity, and relational influence I have to break through the barriers that faced us along the way to get to this place. Even still, looking back, I have seen God's hand in the middle of it and in spite of our bumbling errors.
It comes easy for some guys...very few. Some people are gifted and oozing with leadership capital. Some people have to work hard at it. I work at it. I get up earlier than most, read more than most, and obsess over mission. It keeps me up at night with my one track mind trying to figure out how we can create a movement in this city for the Kingdom of Jesus. But, far more importantly, God has been in the middle of what we're doing. We're extremely blessed to have had the modest success that we have had in a county of 4,000,000+.
I'm definitely faring better here than when I was in Chicago, an area of 8,000,000 plus. I worked hard there also. But, things didn't turn out so well the first time. Idiots slinging a solid 24K gold trophey at a wall, hoping something will stick isn't going to cut it. Besides, the mission is much more important than that. |
my point was that there are a lot of people in those towns. I know how resistant Seattle is - I grew up only a little ways away from there. I also know that we don't want idiots out there planting churches. I am getting more at the fact that there are so many lost souls in those places. We live in a town of 70,000-80,000 and it has taken us 7 years to go from 15 people to 120. I think there are models that work, and they can and will attract the lost. you are at 400 people in 4 years?? That's awesome!! I think one thing we've got to balance, too, is the value of growing a little more slowly than our mind wants to. How many church planters would be ready for 1000 people the first week they threw the doors open?? It sounds great up front, but realistically, there is a lot that goes into pastoring 1000, and not every ot shot 25 year old is ready for that. Look at most of the big churches across America...they have had the same pastor for years. Ted Haggard was at New Life for 25 years, Bill Hybels at Willow Creek for over 30 - and they started with 125 - which is huge for a first service ever. How long were the founding pastors at Mt. Paran? These churches took time to grow, and I am confident that they will all sustain their growth rather than fizzling out when their current leader steps down - as witnessed with the Ted Haggard story. I certainly did not mean to demean anyone's effort. I consider myself good friends with a couple of the pastors in the greater Seattle area, and they are working their tails off to see growth. Their biggest draw back, IMHO, is that the denomination can't (or won't) put the money behind them to put them in a position to grow.
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clintwills.blogspot.com |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5103
1/31/08 2:28 pm
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| I enter this thread |
Randy Johnson |
humbly, recognizing my noob status as a COG minister and wannabe church planter who never got "picked" in my previous denomicarnation. I have some questions.
#1. This may sound like a stupid question but it is sincere. How does money help plant churches? What is the money spent on that helps the church plant be more successful than if the money wasn't there? Does lack of money make make successful church planting impossible, or just slower?
#2. What are the qualities of a successful church planter? Are some ministers gifted in church planting and others more gifted in pastoring already established works? Or can any minister become a successful church planter given the right resources, in the right place, at the right time?
#3. Are the new churches being planted Pentecostal in practice from their inception, or are they passed off as more generic, plain-vanilla type organizations to appeal to a mass market?
I hope no one takes these questions in the wrong way, but I have always had an interest in church planting, and even spoke with my former district officials about it, but for some reason I didn't fit their pattern for a church planter. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
1/31/08 2:59 pm
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| Re: I enter this thread |
Telecaster |
| PastorRandy wrote: | humbly, recognizing my noob status as a COG minister and wannabe church planter who never got "picked" in my previous denomicarnation. I have some questions.
#1. This may sound like a stupid question but it is sincere. How does money help plant churches? What is the money spent on that helps the church plant be more successful than if the money wasn't there? Does lack of money make make successful church planting impossible, or just slower?
#2. What are the qualities of a successful church planter? Are some ministers gifted in church planting and others more gifted in pastoring already established works? Or can any minister become a successful church planter given the right resources, in the right place, at the right time?
#3. Are the new churches being planted Pentecostal in practice from their inception, or are they passed off as more generic, plain-vanilla type organizations to appeal to a mass market?
I hope no one takes these questions in the wrong way, but I have always had an interest in church planting, and even spoke with my former district officials about it, but for some reason I didn't fit their pattern for a church planter. |
Far be it for me to tell you what to do, but I think you should copy and paste your post and start a brand new thread. You bring up issues that are beyond this post and questions I think need to be answered.
Great questions. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
1/31/08 3:24 pm
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| Re: Who will coordinate the events and so forth? |
Matt Boyd |
| Telecaster wrote: | | Matt Boyd wrote: | Telecaster,
Top down programs that are initiated by HQ are a big part of the problem. Each department provides programs that they decide we in the field need. The unique needs and culture of each district/state should be focused upon in hopes to reach the lost of that area. Local churches and districts can come up with mission trips, youth conferences men’s conference etc on their own. If we have to have to bring our people to something with a superstar Christian who charges a lot of money we could plan together to bring our people to one of their events that is not sponsored by the COG. We would save thousands of dollars that could be used to for the mission!
We could call it empowering those on the mission field of America! Each state overseer could work with each district and dream with those pastors and evangelists about how they could reach their specific community, ask God for a vision, partner with other churches and denominations in that district and win that district for Christ.
When we stop focusing on who gets the credit and who’s church the person attends we will start doing the work of the Kingdom of God instead of the Kingdom of the Church of God. After God has given the vision, State Overseers could meet with leaders in Cleveland and present these initiatives for their districts then the millions of dollars that were spent on giant events, conferences and salaries for these department heads and their staff can be distributed to the states to empower the local ministers to reach their communities and plant new churches. |
I think maybe my point earlier is misunderstood. I'm not saying the reason we should keep the Evangelistic department alive is for us to have conferences and ministries and so forth. Indeed, our churches can do those things and should do those things.
Your idea of the Kingdom of God will never appear on this earth. Again, we're talking about a utopian idea. There will always be Baptists and there will always be Methodists and there will always be Pentecostals. Is that a problem? No I don't think so. I think the problem comes when we spend so much time and energy supposedly building the Kingdom of God by trying to unite ourselves together as churches. That's not Kingdom work. While two churches unite and the numbers look good, the harvest is still out there waiting to join the kingdom.
I make no bones about it. I'm Church of God. I'm proud to be Church of God. I don't ever plan on leaving the Church of God unless it becomes something other than the Church of God. I'm all about building the Kingdom of the Church of God as you put it. That's why I'm in this denomination. I do want the Church of God to grow. I believe it represents the closest declaration of faith and beliefs to the Bible as I understand it and study it. Therefore, I do want it to grow. I want my church to grow as well. I want the Baptist church down the street to grow, but my focus is on my church mostly. I can't pastor someone else's church for them. Indeed if every church would attempt to reap the harvest, then and only then, will the Kingdom of God be built for the Kingdom is made up of the harvest and not a conglomaration of churches who have merged or declared a generic doctrine.
The Evangelism Department is doing the work you're stating the State Overseer should be doing. He is promoting evangelism and church plants and church growth seminars that are relevant. Our state evangelism director is the best in the business, or kindgom for this conversation, if you ask me. These conferences aren't about celebrity. They are about reaching people. If indeed you believe they are all about celebrity, then I assume you don't let your groups go to Winterfest and you yourself don't go to Campmeeting and other things. It's not celebrity friend. It's ministry and while I do know that sometimes these things go over the top and a person can get just as much of a blessing in a smaller environment, we cannot discount the power of a conference to take people out of their comfortable surroundings and put them in a place where thousands of men or women or teens have gathered to proclaim Christ.
Sometimes we just need an Elijah experience because we feel like we're all alone where we are even though we know down the street there is another Christian. |
Telecaster,
Sorry it has taken me all day to reply to you I have been at work all day. What I have described is functioning on a much smaller scale where churches are networking together and cooperating on the mission of the church not uniting as one church. I did not mean to imply we should unite into one vanilla church. I do believe that we can cooperate on evangelistic and other efforts and still maintain our distinct churches.
I also don’t think what I was saying about uniting around Christ’s mission is utopian because of Jesus prayer in John 17:20-22
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:”
I am foolish enough to believe what Jesus prayed is a possibility. If we are one the world will believe that the Father sent Jesus!
So, I have ministered with that assumption in mind. In 2003 when I was deployed to Egypt (an undisclosed location in that country) I had 45% Catholics and in my congregation and I preached the word of the Lord with boldness and on Easter of 2003 I saw Catholics and several different flavors of Protestants all worshiping God will all that was within them singing praises to Jesus and responding to the preached word. I wept as I felt the pleasure of the Lord at his children worshipping together in unity.
Last May, I organized a worship conference in Anchorage Alaska with the theme of uniting the body of Christ to reach the lost and we had over 32 churches from the Anchorage area represented at the final night. Not to mention is was racially diverse (50% African American) The church of God Bishop for the state of Alaska attended and sat on the front row.
Now I have been in New Mexico for 5 months and I had the local AME pastor preach for me on MLK Sunday. Also, the largest church in the area, a non-denominational church has partnered with me in ministry, for the next three weeks my worship leader is out of town and their youth pastor is filling in for him. Last week I met with the local director of a nondenominational orphanage and told him of my burden to partner with him and meet the needs of the children he has in his orphanage. We both wept and prayed and we are meeting again next week to plan our first project. This summer we will be going with him to Juarez, Mexico where there are 30 orphanages, (just 80 miles from me) and we are going to help him minister to the poorest of the poor. There is a special blessing God gives when you reach out and partner with other ministries for God’s mission.
Most pastors are not intentional about joining with other congregations or ministries in their area because they see it as utopian, impossible or just simply not important. Well… Jesus says it is! And I have much fruit to show for believing God. There is unbelievable power to reach the lost when we obey Christ in this way.
When I was the college pastor and director of the Master’s Commission at North Cleveland COG I did attend and bring my Master’s Commission students to work the Smokey Mountain Winterfest. I did enjoy it. Also, last year I did speak at one of the session of Articfest in Alaska ( I brought my youth pastor and team preached with him, an ordained COGIC minister.) I do see some value in those kinds of conferences. However, I see much more value in spending that money on sending our youth on a mission where they minister to the needy and experience God working through them.
I too am Church of God for many of the same reasons you are but I preach with freedom every Sunday to a racially diverse congregation of people from every denomination (and many with no church background). We have grown from 70 – 130 in the four months I have been pastoring this service. And only people who have access to the Military base I minister on can attend. All of this I attribute to God instructing me to be intentional about the mission of the Church and partnering with others who share God’s vision of the harvest. Results? I had a young man walk into my office today and give his heart to the Lord. He was literally begging me to lead him to Christ. And that is a common occurrence. I have had that happen several times where they just walk in and tell me they are tired of drinking, smoking and sleeping around and they want Jesus in their life.
So I choose to live in the utopia of God’s Kingdom. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 296
1/31/08 10:04 pm
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Telecaster |
That's awesome Matt. I'm not saying churches can't work together to attempt to pull off avenues for Christians to get saved. Indeed I do that in my community, but that's about where it stops because we are not going to be able to agree after salvation. I know Jesus prayed it and in the way of salvation we can join together, but I can't help but think that maybe Jesus was praying that we would all accept Him as He is fully and not partially.
To be in true unity with Christ and He is with the Father which is what He was praying is to serve Him for everything He is and can be in our lives. I think personally that Jesus was praying more about this than anything else. Why else would He pray we could be unity with Him like He and the Father are in unity? They are in perfect unity. They are existing in and of one another. Their wills are the same and they are One. Can someone who doesn't go beyond just loving Jesus and not following Him in everything He is and said He would be truly in complete unity with Jesus as He is with the Father? In my opinion, I don't think so.
Congrats on your ministry. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
1/31/08 10:33 pm
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| Christian Unity and the Christian Union |
Matt Boyd |
| Telecaster wrote: | That's awesome Matt. I'm not saying churches can't work together to attempt to pull off avenues for Christians to get saved. Indeed I do that in my community, but that's about where it stops because we are not going to be able to agree after salvation. I know Jesus prayed it and in the way of salvation we can join together, but I can't help but think that maybe Jesus was praying that we would all accept Him as He is fully and not partially.
To be in true unity with Christ and He is with the Father which is what He was praying is to serve Him for everything He is and can be in our lives. I think personally that Jesus was praying more about this than anything else. Why else would He pray we could be unity with Him like He and the Father are in unity? They are in perfect unity. They are existing in and of one another. Their wills are the same and they are One. Can someone who doesn't go beyond just loving Jesus and not following Him in everything He is and said He would be truly in complete unity with Jesus as He is with the Father? In my opinion, I don't think so.
Congrats on your ministry. |
Thanks Telecaster! I agree that Jesus was praying that we would all accept Him as He is fully and not partially. To truly accept Jesus is to surrender all. When we do that we humble ourselves before Jesus and our neighbor. Truly the message of Jesus is to live by the Law of love in all that we do and say. I am reminded of a passage in “Like A Mighty Army,” after the Shearer Schoolhouse Revival of 1896, members of the Christian Union experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. On page 36 Conn states, “There is no evidence that the Christian Union people became aggressive toward others regarding the Baptism; just as the blessing had come upon them without their seeking it, they assumed it would be the same for others.” The result was growth and persecution.
This is a lesson for us today. Other Christians who disagree with Pentecostals have grown to tolerate us and some even love us as brothers and sisters. So, as we partner with them in ministry they will see the difference, the power, the anointing on our lives. That will bring them to a fuller revelation of Jesus as Spirit Baptizer faster then any argument or discussion.
Many young ministers in our denomination are reacting against what they see as a counterfeit anointing that is manifest only in a church service. And they perceive that manifestation to be an act. Why? Because there is no love, mercy or tenderness in those men of God when they get off the stage. That is why many are emphasizing a revival of Christian Love and being intentional about unity.
In essence, I am calling for a return to the original goals of the Christian Union, not necessarily all of their methods. In 1886 when our church was founded Richard Spurling Sr. “spoke persuasively, even passionately, on the spiritual issues that brought them together: the need of spiritual renewal and Christian unity.” (pg 11 Like a Might Army) Christian unity was one of the central tenets our church was founded upon.
We have left our roots and the passion that brought the revival that created the Church of God. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 296
2/1/08 11:29 am
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| Absolutely |
Telecaster |
You're 100% correct Matt. We do need a return to love. I think the problem non-Pentecostals have is that they live more of a "saved" life than many who claim to be baptized in the Holy Ghost.
Indeed, if we will love as Jesus loved and truly show all that He is in our lives and all that He can be in a Christian's life, then maybe more will come into the unity that Christ was praying for when He prayed that we would be unified as He and His Father are unified. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
2/1/08 4:08 pm
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| Re: Absolutely |
Randy Johnson |
| Telecaster wrote: | You're 100% correct Matt. We do need a return to love. I think the problem non-Pentecostals have is that they live more of a "saved" life than many who claim to be baptized in the Holy Ghost.
Indeed, if we will love as Jesus loved and truly show all that He is in our lives and all that He can be in a Christian's life, then maybe more will come into the unity that Christ was praying for when He prayed that we would be unified as He and His Father are unified. |
My first pastorate was in a small farming community of 600. I was 25 years old and one of my board members was a 69 year old retired farmer, Brother Steele. One day the transmission went out in my 1973 Plymouth Satellite and Brother Steele offered to tow it 6 miles into Linton, Indiana to their local transmission shop.
While I was in Brother Steele's truck, I struck up a conversation to try to get to know him better. I asked him how he had come to know the Lord. He told me that he had been raised Church of Christ (no instruments) and fell away from the Lord as a young man. Then he met and married Sister Steele. For years she went to church alone and took their children.
Both his wife and other people witnessed to Brother Steele about how he needed to get saved and attend church with his family. So Brother Steele started watching the lives of people he knew before salvation and after they claimed salvation, and he saw such a profound difference that he was convinced he needed the Lord in this life.
The next question I asked him was why he had never sought the baptism in the Holy Spirit. He paused for a few seconds before answering me and said, "I did the same thing about that as I did about salvation. I watched the lives of those who claimed to be Spirit-filled to see if it made a difference." This time, however, Brother Steele didn't see much difference and so he never felt it was that important to seek the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Needless to say I was surprised at his answer and a little bit embarrassed by it. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
2/2/08 12:16 pm
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| Re: Absolutely |
Matt Boyd |
| PastorRandy wrote: | | Telecaster wrote: | You're 100% correct Matt. We do need a return to love. I think the problem non-Pentecostals have is that they live more of a "saved" life than many who claim to be baptized in the Holy Ghost.
Indeed, if we will love as Jesus loved and truly show all that He is in our lives and all that He can be in a Christian's life, then maybe more will come into the unity that Christ was praying for when He prayed that we would be unified as He and His Father are unified. |
My first pastorate was in a small farming community of 600. I was 25 years old and one of my board members was a 69 year old retired farmer, Brother Steele. One day the transmission went out in my 1973 Plymouth Satellite and Brother Steele offered to tow it 6 miles into Linton, Indiana to their local transmission shop.
While I was in Brother Steele's truck, I struck up a conversation to try to get to know him better. I asked him how he had come to know the Lord. He told me that he had been raised Church of Christ (no instruments) and fell away from the Lord as a young man. Then he met and married Sister Steele. For years she went to church alone and took their children.
Both his wife and other people witnessed to Brother Steele about how he needed to get saved and attend church with his family. So Brother Steele started watching the lives of people he knew before salvation and after they claimed salvation, and he saw such a profound difference that he was convinced he needed the Lord in this life.
The next question I asked him was why he had never sought the baptism in the Holy Spirit. He paused for a few seconds before answering me and said, "I did the same thing about that as I did about salvation. I watched the lives of those who claimed to be Spirit-filled to see if it made a difference." This time, however, Brother Steele didn't see much difference and so he never felt it was that important to seek the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Needless to say I was surprised at his answer and a little bit embarrassed by it. |
Thanks you for that Story Randy!
May we, the Church of God, have ears to hear what the the Spirit is saying to the Church! |
Friendly Face
Posts: 296
2/2/08 2:40 pm
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| Re: Christian Unity and the Christian Union |
Louis Morgan |
| Matt Boyd wrote: | Truly the message of Jesus is to live by the Law of love in all that we do and say. I am reminded of a passage in “Like A Mighty Army,” after the Shearer Schoolhouse Revival of 1896, members of the Christian Union experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. On page 36 Conn states, “There is no evidence that the Christian Union people became aggressive toward others regarding the Baptism; just as the blessing had come upon them without their seeking it, they assumed it would be the same for others.” The result was growth and persecution.
This is a lesson for us today. Other Christians who disagree with Pentecostals have grown to tolerate us and some even love us as brothers and sisters. So, as we partner with them in ministry they will see the difference, the power, the anointing on our lives. That will bring them to a fuller revelation of Jesus as Spirit Baptizer faster then any argument or discussion.
Many young ministers in our denomination are reacting against what they see as a counterfeit anointing that is manifest only in a church service. And they perceive that manifestation to be an act. Why? Because there is no love, mercy or tenderness in those men of God when they get off the stage. That is why many are emphasizing a revival of Christian Love and being intentional about unity.
In essence, I am calling for a return to the original goals of the Christian Union, not necessarily all of their methods. In 1886 when our church was founded Richard Spurling Sr. “spoke persuasively, even passionately, on the spiritual issues that brought them together: the need of spiritual renewal and Christian unity.” (pg 11 Like a Might Army) Christian unity was one of the central tenets our church was founded upon.
We have left our roots and the passion that brought the revival that created the Church of God. |
Thank you, thank you, thank you! These are my thoughts exactly.
_________________
growing in grace
http://www.louismorgan.info
http://morganonmission.blogspot.com |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 939
2/2/08 3:38 pm
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| Re: Christian Unity and the Christian Union |
Matt Boyd |
| Louis Morgan wrote: | | Matt Boyd wrote: | Truly the message of Jesus is to live by the Law of love in all that we do and say. I am reminded of a passage in “Like A Mighty Army,” after the Shearer Schoolhouse Revival of 1896, members of the Christian Union experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. On page 36 Conn states, “There is no evidence that the Christian Union people became aggressive toward others regarding the Baptism; just as the blessing had come upon them without their seeking it, they assumed it would be the same for others.” The result was growth and persecution.
This is a lesson for us today. Other Christians who disagree with Pentecostals have grown to tolerate us and some even love us as brothers and sisters. So, as we partner with them in ministry they will see the difference, the power, the anointing on our lives. That will bring them to a fuller revelation of Jesus as Spirit Baptizer faster then any argument or discussion.
Many young ministers in our denomination are reacting against what they see as a counterfeit anointing that is manifest only in a church service. And they perceive that manifestation to be an act. Why? Because there is no love, mercy or tenderness in those men of God when they get off the stage. That is why many are emphasizing a revival of Christian Love and being intentional about unity.
In essence, I am calling for a return to the original goals of the Christian Union, not necessarily all of their methods. In 1886 when our church was founded Richard Spurling Sr. “spoke persuasively, even passionately, on the spiritual issues that brought them together: the need of spiritual renewal and Christian unity.” (pg 11 Like a Might Army) Christian unity was one of the central tenets our church was founded upon.
We have left our roots and the passion that brought the revival that created the Church of God. |
Thank you, thank you, thank you! These are my thoughts exactly. |
Your welcome! And your not alone! |
Friendly Face
Posts: 296
2/3/08 5:31 pm
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| Re: Phil |
D'Art Strickland |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | Seattle and Miami are the two most Gospel resistant cities in the USA statistically. |
Travis, where can I find statistics like these?
_________________
D'Art Strickland
www.heartforboston.com
www.dartstrickland.com |
Friendly Face
Posts: 384
2/4/08 3:14 pm
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| Re: Quick Fix Formula for turning around COG decline |
Bill Kinley |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | 1. Sell closed churches.
2. Mandate that 100% of those funds go into church planting.
3. Match money raised by church planters up to $75,000 for a total of $150,000.
4. Allow churches to designate their World Missions and Home Missions giving directly to projects.
NOTES:
-a singular $1 million defunct church can yield $2,000,000 in church planting capital and 13 significant new church starts.
-church planters who do not raise substantial funds are not highly vested and are more likely to fail.
-a single state with 10 properties for sale (assuming they were only valued at an average of $500,000), could plant 65 significant new churches.
-a pipeline of church planters who have received training and are in coaching relationships with year 1-5 church planters is critical.
-plant churches in population centers upstream where culture is created. Doing this will influence countless others to more heavily involve themselves in mission.
-allowing churches to designate would unleash a flood of cash into mission being given relationally to long-term ministry partners. |
travis, i agree with everything you have proposed but do you really think that the structure of govt. we have in place woud allow such a bold move as to selling property? on the contrary, it seems that we are more concerned with the church property than we are the church as a whole. there may be individual state leaderships that are more forward thinking than others but the COG as a whole just does not seem to lean that direction.
i think one of the largest stopping points to this is the fact that our properties are deeded to the denomination thus tying the hands of the local church to make decisions based on what is best for the community. i realize we must have safeguards in place to protect us from a pastor selling everything and pocketing the money and skipping town but i also think many in the national and even state leadership have no idea what may be best for a community when it comes to the local church. Pastors are placed in run down churches with no way of drawing new people because of run down facilities or bad reputations that have been tied to the property. But the property is "more valuable" to hold onto than it is to sell and move the people to a different location with a chance to really build something.
This leads to another question.....can the COG be a missionally minded movement in the current structure of government that we have established and become accustom to? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1263
2/4/08 4:08 pm
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| Re: Phil |
prefontaine |
| Big D'Art wrote: | | Travis Johnson wrote: | | Seattle and Miami are the two most Gospel resistant cities in the USA statistically. |
Travis, where can I find statistics like these? |
Dart...if I were to guess, Travis is using a stat that shows churches per capita in an area. There was a map that someone posted on here a while back. I can't find it myself, but it showed how many evangelical churches there were (density). It was interesting for sure.
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clintwills.blogspot.com |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5103
2/4/08 5:23 pm
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