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Tithe & Attendance Docs - TOP 100 Pastors (post 2 of 3)

 
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Post Tithe & Attendance Docs - TOP 100 Pastors (post 2 of 3) Travis Johnson
ATTENDANCE STATS (PDF DOWNLOAD)
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TITHE STATS (PDF DOWNLOAD)

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Acts-dicted
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11/2/07 2:39 pm


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Post Thoughts... Yo Dude
1) Assuming there was no substantial windfall or dropoff in tithes in the previous six months for any of these churches, Loran Livingston's church in disproportionately wealthy.

2) I find it interesting that in our Top 100 churches, the #100 church is only 10% the size of the largest church--a very steep trend indeed.

3) Tithes--if we ignore the disproportionate numbers from Livingston's church, we find that the #100 place is only about a sixth as large as the #2 church.

Very simply, there appears to be no gradual trend between the tiers we have set. It goes from MEGA...to...MEDIUM very quickly. That is, out of our 5000 plus churches, you would think there would be a normal distribution of churches--from large to small.

Instead, there are a VERY FEW large churches (comparatively)...and a LOT of smaller churches.

Consider that out of 5000 plus churches, IF 10% were large churches, that would mean the TOP 500 churches were large. As it is, by the time we get through the Top 100, we are already in the medium range.

What does this mean? It means that we are VERY SUCCESSFUL in having many small churches...and we are not very successful in having many large churches (thought they more than pay their way, I'm sure).

However, thougth we are perhaps one of the best in the world at creating smaller churches (say, under 300), we focus our efforts on creating more massive churches. We conduct programs, seminars, conferences, etc., trying to make it happen...and it does not happen.

What if we started thinking that since we are so successful at having small churches, maybe we ought to focus on making these the best small churches in the world.

You know, this is gonna surprise some folks, but many people WANT the intimacy of a small church. They WANT to know the pastor informally, WANT to have that family-feel that is not as possible in larger churches. And if we can help our SMALL CHURCHES be as good as they can be, well, we'd kill many birds with one stone.

We'd provide a richer experience for the members/attenders. That is worth it all there...but that would likely have the consequence of causing a degree of growth. And when "a degree of growth" is spread across thousands of smaller churches, it can be much more than even if 20 new mega-churches sprang up--and more meaningful.

Our gift is obviously not in growing large churches, though we are thankful for them. Yet we keep electing only large-church pastors. Why? I mean, in a very real sense, they are flukes of nature.

If a man is fortunate enough to pastor a large church, he is likely given a large church in a trade...and so it APPEARS he is making it happen all over again, when, in fact, he is inheriting established growth...upon which he may or may not be able to expand.

It's time for the true representatives of our church to have a seat at the table, and quit allowing the top 2% to decide our course of action.
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11/2/07 9:29 pm


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Post Tom, I hear you, but... Yo Dude
Consider my argument that if the "formula" for growing large churches were TEACHABLE, then we'd surely have hundreds of mega-churches, would we not?

Yet we spend millions buying books, attending seminars, and growth conferences. And while I have no doubt that we take home some good things to our people, the one thing we seem to NOT take home...is growth.

That is, we may hear something that sounds like a good idea for our church, but it doesn't necessarily translate into growth.

I became a bit disillusioned with the whole growth scam when I realized that the church I was then attending (I was not pastoring) had a superb pastor who truly had the people at heart...had a music program that, at that time, absolutely rocked the place musically and spiritually...and yet we seemed to not be able to advance over 150 or so.

Then I'd check out the Baptist church down the road. 500 in attendance. Not even near the preaching--anointing or depth (I know, I'd been there)--and the music program was MILES behind anything we had. I couldn't understand it.

I've checked out Churches of God that were certainly in the same ballpark as we were in many ways...and while they had 1500 in attendance, our church was still running around 130-150.

I noticed that most large-church pastors, if they transfer, they do not transfer to some rinky-dink church, but to another large church (perhaps even larger). And so we seldom get to see whether lightening can strick twice, so to speak.

But in as close to an objective study as I could make, I had to conclude that there is simply NO FORMULA for growth.

I see small anointed churches. And large dead ones.

I see small churches with grande singing. And large ones with quite mediocre singing (check out the old Thomas Road Baptist).

I see small churches with numerous ministries...and large churches with nothing particularly more interesting.

Very simply, there is no literal formula for growth that I know of that can be duplicated with success time after time. If there is, we'd have all bought into it by now.

We say things like pray, prepare, preach the Word, and so forth--and it happens at THOUSANDS OF CHURCHES OF GOD every single service...and yet almost all of them are smaller churches.

I am obviously having some difficulty in saying what I mean--ha! I've used "luck," "blessing," "God's sovereign favor," and so forth. I guess that goes to show that there is no particular way to describe why some boom and some don't.

I certainly don't mean that the COG is INTENTIONALLY creating small churches. I think that's obvious. What I do mean is that THAT is what we are good at. And we know that because we do it almost every time we open a church.

We keep playing this game of "if we'll just do this and this and this, we'll be mega-churches." NO WE WON'T.

Very simply, a baseball player can be superb at hitting singles...and spend his life pining away to be a Hank Aaron. Attend special training camps...and go back and hit more singles.

It is just my thinking that if we turn our hearts away from MEGA-growth (yes, we should still seek to grow, but just forget about becoming a mega-church), and focus on being as good of a church as we can be for the people we have, we'd see a whole lot more satisfaction in our ranks (after all, they aren't going to feel like failures for not themselves having a mega-church) and a whole lot more excellence in our small churches.

What can we learn from larger churches? Well, the do have some lessons in excellence that often are not considered that important at the smaller level. That's something we could take home, perhaps. But as I said, we can take some things home, but growth isn't one of them.

If we're good bean farmers, let's not keep trying to be apricot farmers.
Acts-dicted
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11/3/07 12:21 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
There are natural growth barriers every pastor and church has to face. Moving through them is no stroke of divine luck...no fatalism here. There are causal issues that have yielded a denominational system that produces the attendance range of churches we now have. This is not a Pentecostal issue.

Each barrier that each church has comes with its own set of challenges. If you approach the 500 barrier the same way you approached the 150/200 barrier or the same way you approached the 75 barrier, you won't pass it. You'll just level out in the system you know and are comfortable functioning in.

Additionally, our TOT system starts some churches out with significant disadvantage in approaching and moving through growth barriers. I cannot believe that a church in a high cost-of-living city that also has low disposable income (Miami, Manhattan, San Franscisco, Seattle) will have the same growth opportunities that a church in a low cost-of-living city with high amounts of disposable income (Atlanta, Birmingham, Dallas) will be able to flourish to the same degree.

So, we saddle down churches with a mandatory financial burden, cloak it in spiritual language (tithe of tithe), and drain away pieces of our evangelistic potential so that we can instead fund negative side bureaucracy.

The result is smaller churches statistically in comparison to our sister denomination, the Assemblies of God. Of course, there are other factors that play into the equation like:

-rotating pastors,
-rotating leaders,
-advancement of leaders who were not successful on the local level who in turn model their leadership styles for pastors,
-top down leadership that is unaccountable to the field,
-a vacuum of transparent, authentic relationships, and
-significant mistrust from every level of ministry toward every level of ministry.

There is a reason why out of 6,000+ churches in the USA and Canada that we only have 4 mega-churches. There is a reason why almost half of the COG has 50 people or less. So, rather than chalking it up to fatalism and saying its no use, we ought to figure out the problem and work to remedy it. Its a Kingdom issue. If we fail to address it because we are worried about the havoc it will bring to families in Cleveland, we are in essence stating that we value the status quo more than we value the mission of Jesus Christ.

It is that reason that it is inconceivable to me that we have delayed so long in dealing with the TOT issue and that we are even talking about a gradual cut now. I understand the practical nature of needing to convince people that change is necessary. But, I cannot imagine that if the PB and the EC came to the floor and stated that we needed to bring an immediate cut, there would be any hesitation by the GA to follow them.

This move to cut the ecclesiastical tax is a grass roots movement. Our leadership is being pulled along. We need a visionary that will get out in front and champion real change initiative instead of championing initiatives that consolidate power and weaken the local church and our ability to realize Kingdom expansion.
Acts-dicted
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11/3/07 4:16 pm


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Post Travis, Yo Dude
My bro, surely we are not to think that keeping that extra 15% is a key differential between small churches and mega-churches?

I think that just as in the U.S., there is a certain income level under which a person does not pay taxes, there ought to be a minimum tithe level. That is, if you're church brings in less than, say, $5000/month, you do not have to pay the tithe of the tithe.

Or perhaps something like the homestead exemption--the first, say, 30% of tithe is exempt from the tithe of the tithe.

This would ensure that more money stayed where it is REALLY needed....

But before I go on, let me just point out that there is NOT WAY that Central COG requires nearly a million dollars per month!!! In fact, the NEXT LARGEST church receives around $500,000 less per month--and somehow they make it!!!

And yet, while Central can EASILY afford a full staff, etc., we demand no more percentage wise from them, than we do of the bi-vocational pastor whose church is struggling mightily. I do believe in a flat "tax," but if we're not going to exempt the poorer churches, then we need to consider asking more of the larger ones.

Now, Travis, I know you know that even if we GAVE smaller churches money, few, if any, are going to become mega-churches. In fact, some of our smaller churches are quite wealthy.

There is no one-size-fits-all formula. In fact, I would say that every church, if it were to grow, would have to have a CUSTOM FORMULA that took into account all the variables about that church and community.

So growth seminars should go away...and become "excellence" seminars that can perhaps help all of us learn some best practices...without expecting mega-growth.
Acts-dicted
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11/3/07 7:33 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
Our churches are significantly smaller than that of the AG. I did an attendance comparison sometime back and posted it here. There is no way that we can extract large portions of operating funds from a local church and think it doesn't negatively impact our ability to reach out, staff up, or invest in mission. It does. But, like I said, it is only one of the reasons. I listed more. Acts-dicted
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11/3/07 10:58 pm


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Post Re: Tom, I hear you, but... Jerry Lawson
Yo Dude wrote:
Consider my argument that if the "formula" for growing large churches were TEACHABLE, then we'd surely have hundreds of mega-churches, would we not?

.


Yo Dude,

It's not that the "formula" is not teachable....maybe it's that most pastors are not teachable!

Jerry Lawson
www.daystarchurch.net
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11/4/07 8:34 am


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Post Jerry...consider Yo Dude
Why would a pastor not have EVERY INCENTIVE to grow his church? In our organization, it means prestige, more money, greater opportunities, and on and on.

So why would most of our pastors NOT be willing to learn how to grow their churches? What would be their motive for not doing so, when so much happens for them if they can make the leap?
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11/5/07 1:23 pm


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Post Re: Tom, I hear you, but... Scott Simms
Jerry Lawson wrote:
Yo Dude wrote:
Consider my argument that if the "formula" for growing large churches were TEACHABLE, then we'd surely have hundreds of mega-churches, would we not?

.


Yo Dude,

It's not that the "formula" is not teachable....maybe it's that most pastors are not teachable!

Jerry Lawson
www.daystarchurch.net


Are you saying there is a formula to grow my church?
If there is a formula will you give me the funds to work the formula?
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11/5/07 2:21 pm


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Post Re: Tom, I hear you, but... Jerry Lawson
rsskypastor wrote:
Jerry Lawson wrote:
Yo Dude wrote:
Consider my argument that if the "formula" for growing large churches were TEACHABLE, then we'd surely have hundreds of mega-churches, would we not?

.


Yo Dude,

It's not that the "formula" is not teachable....maybe it's that most pastors are not teachable!

Jerry Lawson
www.daystarchurch.net


Are you saying there is a formula to grow my church?
If there is a formula will you give me the funds to work the formula?


ABSOLUTELY I'm saying there is a formula to grow your church!!!! If I didn't believe there was a formula to grow the church I would have never gotten into the ministry. Jesus said, "I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH!" He has a plan for growing your church.

But how do you find that formula?
1. Pray daily for a spirit of wisdom and revelation.
2. Search out mentors at every turn. Ask questions, ask follow-up questions and glean from them all that you can.
3. Make difficult decisions about the stewardship of your time. Everything from how you manage your time daily to what conferences you attend. For me, when my church was smaller, I had to choose between Church of God events like General Assembly, Prayer Conference, Campmeeting, etc.....and other conferences like Catalyst, NOC, Natl. Pastor's Leadership School, C3, etc. I knew that it would be more fun hanging out with "the boys" at a COG event and I knew that the overseer would smile on me more favorably & maybe I'd get elected to some board if I went to the COG events. But I decided that I would rather find out why my church was not larger. What do those guys at the top know that I don't know?
4. Be willing to scrap your plans, traditions, and personal preferences in favor of a model that reaches the emerging postmodern world. Most of us grew up in a church culture that was designed to reach out to modernity. However, this age is past and these methods will not work in today's society.
5. Be bold enough to implement the changes that you see need to be brought about, even if it causes you personal trials. This may cause the attendance to drop before it goes up. It may cause the finances to drop before they increase.

These are just a few components that went into the formula that I am following for Daystar. Is there a formula for growing your church? ABSOLUTELY YES! And the finances will NOT be the problem when we find God's formula for growth in our churches.

That's just my opinion. Thanks for asking.

Jerry Lawson
www.daystarchurch.net
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11/5/07 7:28 pm


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Post Jerry .... you are right MartyBaker79
Quote:
Is there a formula for growing your church? ABSOLUTELY YES! And the finances will NOT be the problem when we find God's formula for growth in our churches.


Jerry ... you are right. There is a formula for growing a church. My life was radically changed in February 1992 when I attended my first Willow Creek Church Leadership Conference. I saw their 7 step formula for growing a church and it revolutionized my ministry and our church.

What are the steps?
1. Build a relationship with an unchurched person.
2. Allow them to ask questions. (this is where the Holy Spirit gets involved) Continue this spiritual dialog, then...
3. Invite your friend to a service that speaks his language
---- Lead your friend to Christ
4. Become a worshipper (baptism, communion, church membership)
5. Join a small group (community)
6. Discover and use your spiritual gifts (all the gifts, not just power gifts)
7. Love the church so much that you want to give the Lord's tithe.

When I saw that formula, I saw a process. I understood how we could build a church. We were running around 100 people at the time; last Sunday we had 1226. This formula works ... for the glory of God.

-- Marty

www.stevenscreek.net
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11/7/07 9:19 am


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