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Why we are losing our BRIGHTEST and our BEST

Friendly Face Posts: 215 **3/27/07 4:04 pm**

Dave Garner wrote in another conversation:

"Kevin,

You sound like so many others on this board....take and take and take..... whatever you can get from the denomination with no real loyalty to the denomination.

I notice you don't mind being listed on the Internationals web site and the fact that as a church plant you are getting financial support from the COG.

In case you don't realize it, it is because of the church I go to and countless others that you even have a place to preach at the present time.

In my opinion, all those on this board who think the COG is meaningless in this present world would serve the rest of us very well if you would only have the courage of your convictions and turn in your credentials and walk!

I challenge you all.....Quit complaining and mouthing your bitter little comments!

Why don't you try WALKING instead of all your meaningless TALKING.

The COG would be better off without you!

Other people on this board who have sincere questions and concerns regarding their own ministries certainly would be better off if they didn't have your garbage spewing out on this board week after week.

I don't need to spell out your names. Each and everyone of you know who I am talking too. Like they say, if the shoe fits wear it!

If things are as bad as you say why do you stay.

It wouldn't be because you can't make it somewhere else without the financial backing of your local congregation, would it?

It wouldn't be because you like getting that regular paycheck and all the perks that go with your present position, would it?

It wouldn't be because you know in your heart that you couldn't make it out in the real world, would it?"

This is precisely why the COG is losing their BRIGHTEST and BEST pastoral leaders (especially the younger ones). It is this "don't complain, just shut up and take it" and if you can't take it then "just leave" attitude that is driving our best leaders from this church.

I believe there is a groundswell of sentiment forming that is demanding some substantive change in the way the COG does certain things and if changes are not made, these BEST and BRIGHTEST will do just that, they will leave.

IF the COG does not change, I predict that ten years from now (if the Lord tarries that long) we will be nothing but a bunch of 50 & 60 year old pastors holding on till we can retire and a FEW young pastors (like Dave Garner) who see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

HOW SAD...

tsturgell

Why do we stay?

Friendly Face Posts: 267 **3/27/07 4:53 pm**

I think we stay because this is our church as much as it is anyone else's. I grew up in the cog. My dad was a music pastor my whole school life in the cog. These are my roots. I long for it to be better. I see where we can really make a difference. The problem is to many people are scarred of change. They are scarred to it different then we did at campmeeting 25 years ago. This is why there is so much frustration. If the cog is to go forward it has to change or it will be dead in 25 years.
_________________
Todd Sturgell
Creative Worship Pastor
Stevens Creek Church

http://www.toddsturgell.org
http://www.facebook.com/toddsturgell
http://twitter.com/toddsturgell
http://www.stevenscreekchurch.com/

philunderwood

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3954 **3/27/07 4:53 pm**

prefontaine

Wow Phil...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5103 **3/27/07 5:49 pm**

I don't care what some on here may say about you, that was heart-felt. The thing about having to attend a COG has been something i have thought about as well. There aren't a ton of COG's that I would attend outside of the one I do. So what happens if I move? I have to put the needs of my family above my license, right?
Maybe some other COG pastor will take the COG Catalyst Torch from you Phil, and those that want a change can unite to see change in our generation. I don't want to see it changed for my kids...it'll be too late by then, I want to see it changed for me, and my ministry. I think it has got to help that church like Marty's are growing and becoming a larger part of the COG. If the more relevant churches can continue to grow, we have got to get some type of voice on the int'l level.
Like Todd, I was raised int he COG. My dad was an associate and now a senior pastor, and my mom was a MOM. I grew up going to camps and Winterfests, and I don't want to see those things go away.
Thank you two for putting such heart-felt truth into your posts. I also appreciate that it isn't ranting and complaining...it's simply saying it the way it is.

vintagefaith77

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1807 **3/27/07 7:07 pm**

the easy thing would be to walk away, but the right thing is usually not the easy thing. I have thought a million times to myself "why again am I COG?" and the heartbreaking part is that I'm not really sure. I don't line up with thier methodology, leadership structure, ecclesiology or much else. About the only thing I agree with is the our Declaration of Faith, but is that enough to stay? To be honest, people in my generation couldn't give a flip what "we believe", they want to know what we do with what we believe! And that's where I want to see a change in the Church of God. I long to work hand in hand with older, more experienced pastors and lead our congregations into our communities...beyond the safety of the 4 church walls and take the huge risk of hanging out with tax collectors and sinners. I think the best thing Dr. McGuire could do would be to shut the doors to every single COG in America for 1 month and tell the pastors to teach your church to be the church because the real church has nothing to do with a building or how much your tithes were this month or how many people were slain in the altar this past Sunday!

If we want something radical to happen, we need to do something radical! Joshua and the children of Israel didn't see the Jordan part until they stuck their feet in. We have been standing on the safe banks of our church culture while there's an ocean of miracles waiting for us if we would just JUMP! I sincerelly hope and pray that something happens in the COG...I would love to see this organization thrive on the cutting edge of the move of God's Spirit once again, like our early pioneers did back in the day.

wahoo

Not all the good ones are leaving

Acts-celerater Posts: 557 **3/27/07 8:31 pm**

I know several young, sharp, progressive, forward thinking young pastors who are not leaving the COG. They don't show up at many of the denominational meetings, don't care if they are recognized or honored for their way of doing ministry. They don't come on this board and try to convince others that their way is the best way and everyone not doing it their way is an old, boring codger. They just possess passionate desire to know the Father, to understand His love and grace, and to reveal that to others.

The best and the brightest are often the least known, least appreciated among us. They often choose not to be loud or forceful, they just practice pursuit. I think Kevin Lloyd will do a great job, just don't know why he has to be quite so bullish about it. I think Phil Underwood is a deep thinker, just wish he would have thought some decisions through better so his voice would be weightier.

Marty Baker is one of the best and brightest but he is not belligerent. Chuck Ramsay is doing things differently but not beating folks up if they aren't. Brian Hunter is awesome but is not hosting his own conference or round table to convince others to do his way.

Some of the best are the quietest, wish some of those who have not yet proven they are best or brightest would be a bit on the quiet side as well.

COG TODAY

Stay and Lead Change

Friendly Face Posts: 233 **3/27/07 9:16 pm**

I often read and seldom post, but as a young pastor concerned about God's mission and the future of the COG I must post.

I truly believe that we are on the verge of turning the big ship in the right direction and it is because of young pastors with a heart for the mission more than the COG. The COG will grow and prosper as we focus on the mission (go and make disciples). I am as committed to the COG as anybody, but I am more committed to making Christ followers.

Criticism is not all bad but it must be offered constructively. The COG needs to make some changes to the administrative structures of Cleveland and the state offices, but that will take time as with any of our local churches trying to make change.

Travis for instance has lead and is leading his congregation through change, but that has taken time to share the vision and to implement the vision. His church was not always the progressive, emergent, mission minded, church planting, soul winning mission station "brand" that it is today.

I respect missional leaders and consider myself to be one of those types of leaders, but I will not offer change through bitterness, resentment, and anger. I believe the best use of my time and talent will come through changing and influencing by leading. Speaking out, yet respecting those that came before me.

I am troubled by some who call themselves missional yet write off the old church (traditional church who speaks church-ease). They need direction to Christ as much as anyone, they simply don't always know it because they are stuck in their tradition. My heart is for the religious who are not Christ followers as much as it is for the unchurched who are not Christ followers. I think that is why Christ spent some time engaging the religious of his day, He cared for them too.

Why must their be such divisive tactics to lead change. Iron sharpens Iron-YES, but Paul encourages us to make every effort to keep the unity. Let us(Young Leaders in the COG) lead from within and as examples the COG will have to follow. Let us take state board positions, state office positions and Cleveland positions and lead this COG through change. Let us not forget those that came before us, while relentlessly working to change our culture. Let's Lead a Renewal to a mission-driven church movement to make Christ followers.

Travis Johnson

Re: Stay and Lead Change

Acts-dicted Posts: 7821 **3/27/07 9:48 pm**

COG TODAY has a good post. The comments about a heart of religious people who are not saved is spot on. Understanding your audience and reaching it for the cause of Jesus is the heart of missionality. Mission is not about style. It is about the sole purpose of Jesus - seeking and saving that which is lost.

I will add one caveat to what he said in regard to young leaders. It is essential to respect those who precede us. They are worthy of honor. Still, it is essential to speak directly, accurately, and with love. Do not be afraid to pick up the phone and contact people of influence. With few exceptions, I have been received with hospitality and generosity. Only once have I been told to mind my own business.

It is also essential to function with integrity. It is necessary to point out practices that do not honor mission. Doing so respects God more than man.

DaveGarner

Member Posts: 36 **3/27/07 10:10 pm**

Yes, Doyle I did make that post.

My point, and perhaps I did not make it as well as I wanted is:

So many on this board have nothing but complaints about the COG. If they are right why do they stay in the denomination?

What is there that holds them to an organization that is:
corrupt,
dictatorial,
unresponsive,
full of people who refuse to change,
etc., etc., etc.

You can talk whatever action against me that you choose but my questions are legitimate questions that each one of these complainers need to answer for themselves!

philunderwood

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3954 **3/27/07 10:32 pm**

COG TODAY

To Phil

Friendly Face Posts: 233 **3/27/07 10:55 pm**

I understand your analogy to an abusive father because I grew up with one, and I left him, shut him out and talked about him when he wasn't looking and when he was looking.

He died and left me in bitterness and unforgiveness in my heart toward him because I thought i got it(mission and life) and he didn't(drunk and gluttoned). I now understand more fully what a broken and contrite heart is because I had to ask for forgiveness from a dead man(my dad) because when he died I thought i didn't need him.

If i really loved him as i should have i would not have forsaken him and left him alone to die. I would not have written about him in a way that would have hurt him. I would not encourage someone else in my family to deceive him with dishonesty. Jesus would not have given up on him. I wish that I hadn't either. As Rick Warren says "God never wastes a hurt" and today I learned the hard way but am thankful for what God taught me in my sin.

We need leaders that will stay, critique, and lead with integrity not leave, critique, and tear down by provoking others to be negative. We need to help the COG learn the lesson of the hurt that many pastors and people are feeling. We will be better for it-I would have been better for it...

Sorry to be so personal...

Rayford J. Bethune

Only opinion again!

Hey, DOC Posts: 52 **3/27/07 11:23 pm**

To say that the COG is losing its brightest and best is only an opinion. So you named a few preachers, so what. Just because some leave does not mean we are losing them all. I am 35 (I may not be young enough for you), and I know plenty of COG preachers my age that are great men of God, and great preachers. They are leading there churches according to the will of God for their local congregation and not according to the opinion of man. That may not fit your perfect idea of young and bright, but it doesn't change who they are.

I wish I had a better understanding of the change many of you desire. Because the COG that I am part of and the ones around our area are nothing like the COGs that I grew up in. I feel like a person will only complain about needing change when people are different than themselves.

Is it leadership were change is needed? If so, would you be a better leader, or maybe one of your buddies that agree with what you believe to be right or wrong? Wait a minute that is what we have already, RIGHT!

You know it is amazing how times change, but attitudes really don't!

Think about this, from 1950 until 1988, the COG was the fastest growing denomination in the world. ( I will find the article that I read this in during a recent study of COG history) Now, there were many changes made during the General Assembly of 1988. After that year and following some more changes in the next few GA, many people left the COG. Some were just ministers, some entire congregations. Ok, since that time the COG is not listed in the top 10 denominations in America. ( at the time of my study)

Now this is were the attitudes remain the same. If you left the COG after those assemblies because of liberal beliefs then you would agree that the church has slowed in growth because of sin.

If you think the COG is failing to change enough, then you would say that growth has slowed because there is not enough change. So which attitude is better? Every man is right in his own eyes!!!!!!

As far as change in the COG goes. It is nothing like it was 20 years ago (like it or not). I started pastoring when I was 27, and I have not been given a great revelation on how the COG should be in the future. And I have no desire to try to act as if I do. Every man and woman that helped build the Cog, I honor! I may not agree with the COG and some of their beliefs during my younger years, but until I pray, fast, study, and live for God without fault in my own life, I will by no means act as if I am more spiritual than the old saints of God. Thanks and God Bless!

Rayford J. Bethune
Senior Pastor, The Refuge
Fort Payne, Alabama

Grandpa Cleland

COG TODAY...

Acts-celerater Posts: 627 **3/28/07 12:02 am**

Welcome to the Dog Pound BABY!! yeah... ( A little American Idol jargon for that was one of "the best posts i have seen in a long time...")

nugeme

Outside observation

Acts-celerater Posts: 918 **3/28/07 5:25 am**

Just reading these posts as an outside observer, my thoughts are:

1. A lot of COG people would have a right to be scared of change when they read a comment like " people my age don't give a flip about what they believe". I'd be afraid of such nonsense taking over, too.

2. I'd be afraid of such intolerant and pompous attitudes that tell people who have been faithful for years that suddenly everything they did was wrong and we are right.

Oh, it appears there IS much about which one should be concerned in the COG - but it's not from the faithful saints of years gone by........

Charlie Metz

amazing

Acts-celerater Posts: 705 **3/28/07 7:26 am**

So if we don't move forward in the emergent style, or progressive in nature, or popculture moves, then we are dead in 25 years?

You guys keep talking about how the traditionalists are just against emergents. I am for progressive approaches if you can reach people WITHOUT compromising scripture...which, from what I know about emergents, do frequently. However, one thing you guys won't acknowledge is your passive-aggressive nature in trashing traditionalists. Go back and read some of your statements... Better yet, read a few here:

tsturgell

Re: amazing

Friendly Face Posts: 267 **3/28/07 7:53 am**

philunderwood

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3954 **3/28/07 7:54 am**

cogCharlie

1. that quote from me does not bash traditionalists, it points out the different types of people i have encountered in local church leadership in the CofG. there is as much said about the guys doing it well as the ones not doing it well.

2. this is not about being emergent in the least. it is about a system of control, secrecy and politics that overshadows missionality, the primacy of the local church and gift-based leadership.
take, for instance, the groups that have decentralized government, autonomous churches and cooperative missions and they seem to get ministry done better, more efficiently and with less hassle.

3. no one should ever throw out the baby with the bath water, but the water definitely needs to be changed.
_________________
Live an epiK life!

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keepthefaith

Mr Underwood

Friendly Face Posts: 452 **3/28/07 8:01 am**

Great response...

Our State has lost some really great men of God that were forward thinking people and rubbed the AB the wrong way. One is now pastoring a great church where they are breaking barriers in the community and winning souls.

There is freedom in change, change is movement and every generation fights the new visions of others.

We need all forward and progressive mission minded people in the movement.
_________________
Faith is the substance...

nugeme

Acts-celerater Posts: 918 **3/28/07 8:29 am**

I think the COG has an impending ( and perhaps present) crisis of monumental proportions. If not addressed soon, the COG will mirror image the United Methodist Church in my lifetime.

vintagefaith77

Re: Outside observation

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1807 **3/28/07 9:48 am**