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Should we remove our church from COG? Serious replies only!
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Post Response to Unidenified Jay R
I'm kind of late in this discussion, but I would like to response to your request. I came into the Church of God in my early twenties. I have started a church and understand what it is like. I first would like to say I know the seriousness of your situation, and urge you to pray, and allow the Spirit of God to lead you in this matter. The council of many is wise, but only God can tell you where to take your church. Though there are things I disagree with about the church at time, I still believe that God called our church, and that He can bring revival to it. Maybe there is no churches like your, maybe there is no one that is like you, maybe you have to go outside the church to find resources that will help you, but you can be the spark for change in your area. I remember reading where over thirty years ago no believed in Paul Walkers approach of counseling as a pastor. The churches thought it was wrong, but now it is the norm. One man, one church can bring change, and you can do that. Growing churches set the mark for future churches. You are not alone, the devils first attack against us a ministers is to cause us to feel isolated, but you are not alone. I can't tell you what you should do, and no one on the board can, but I do believe that God will give you the answer, and I will be praying with you. Newbie
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4/8/07 8:29 pm


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Post Re: Again, the focus is too narrow... Travis Johnson
4thgenCOG wrote:
Travis said,

Quote:
Send 100% of EHM funds to church planting and training for new church starts.


100% to church planting leaves out too much. What about jail and prison ministries, what about evangelism in already existing churches, what about strengthening struggling churches, training pastors of already existing churches?...

The forest is made up of more than 1 tree... No matter how important that 1 tree may be.


Build churches. They will produce more ministry than a COG sponsored Prison conference hands down. When guys come out of prison and God changes their lives, they don't need an inspirational conference to kick start them.

The majority of our conferences are kind of lame. Cheese ball graphics that look like they are produced by a female secretary that just discovered WordArt, a lack of competitiveness and excllence due to overfunding, and a lack of innovation and inbred thinking. I simply don't go to some of this stuff because its a waste of time. If you've heard it once, you've heard it a thousand times. That doesn't apply to everything. But, it does apply to too much of the stuff if we are doling out of these EHM funds.

I have a guy with a downs syndrome son. He's started a ministry for special needs kid. No conference prompted his passion. He's just built for it and his heart is totally involved. We'll support him in training and get him to the right places for education. But, it doesn't need to be funded by the EHM budget. I shouldn't be funding training that is largely outdated, boring, bland, and off-mission.

We need to get insanely consumed with a singular focus of Kingdom Expansion (i.e. new church starts) and let the churches handle and choose what kind of training they are going to give their people. Some of the churches that are perpetually broken need to be allowed to die (see the parable of the talents). There is a ton of good specialized training out there to be had and a lot of other solutions to dwindling, dying, impotent churches to be had other than diluting the effectiveness of our Home Mission Budget.

PS. to answer your title of "the focus is too narrow", I would say our focus is too broad. We are doing virtually nothing by trying to do everything. This is a fairly basic leadership principle. We've go to get this. Some people do. Some people don't. Hopefully, the right people will get it and do something about it sooner rather than later.
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4/8/07 9:17 pm


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Post Re: Again, the focus is too narrow... KevinLloyd
Travis Johnson wrote:
4thgenCOG wrote:
Travis said,

Quote:
Send 100% of EHM funds to church planting and training for new church starts.


100% to church planting leaves out too much. What about jail and prison ministries, what about evangelism in already existing churches, what about strengthening struggling churches, training pastors of already existing churches?...

The forest is made up of more than 1 tree... No matter how important that 1 tree may be.


Build churches. They will produce more ministry than a COG sponsored Prison conference hands down. When guys come out of prison and God changes their lives, they don't need an inspirational conference to kick start them.

The majority of our conferences are kind of lame. Cheese ball graphics that look like they are produced by a female secretary that just discovered WordArt, a lack of competitiveness and excllence due to overfunding, and a lack of innovation and inbred thinking. I simply don't go to some of this stuff because its a waste of time. If you've heard it once, you've heard it a thousand times. That doesn't apply to everything. But, it does apply to too much of the stuff if we are doling out of these EHM funds.

I have a guy with a downs syndrome son. He's started a ministry for special needs kid. No conference prompted his passion. He's just built for it and his heart is totally involved. We'll support him in training and get him to the right places for education. But, it doesn't need to be funded by the EHM budget. I shouldn't be funding training that is largely outdated, boring, bland, and off-mission.

We need to get insanely consumed with a singular focus of Kingdom Expansion (i.e. new church starts) and let the churches handle and choose what kind of training they are going to give their people. Some of the churches that are perpetually broken need to be allowed to die (see the parable of the talents). There is a ton of good specialized training out there to be had and a lot of other solutions to dwindling, dying, impotent churches to be had other than diluting the effectiveness of our Home Mission Budget.

PS. to answer your title of "the focus is too narrow", I would say our focus is too broad. We are doing virtually nothing by trying to do everything. This is a fairly basic leadership principle. We've go to get this. Some people do. Some people don't. Hopefully, the right people will get it and do something about it sooner rather than later.


Travis-

That's the best post I've ever read on here.
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4/8/07 9:36 pm


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Post Stay Far From Cleveland
If God tells you specifically to get out of the Church of God, you obviously must go. In doing so, be sure to do it honestly, professionally, in all kindness & longsuffering, with a gentle spirit and forgiving attitude. This would show that God was in it. If it is out of frustration, rebellion, or other indications of a bad attitude (where from you or from others), then I would have a hard time attaching God's Will to it.

AS FOR STAYING...

Connect with some of these other brothers who have reached out to you. With telephones, emails, IMs, internet, etc... you can build strong accountability partners within the framework of the Church of God instead of cutting ties with a worldwide movement who is on the verge of experiencing a mighty harvest of souls.

If you feel you still need to leave personally, then resign your church, turn it over to the AB & do not start another ministry or church within 50 miles. To take your congregation out of covenant with the Church of God will be detrimental to the body for many years to come. Trust me on this one.

Feel free to send me a personal message if you'd like to hear the heart & purpose for this post.

Hang in there.
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4/9/07 12:55 pm


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Post Having left myself.......................... sheepdogandy
I would not presume to encourage you to leave or stay.

However, my personal experience has been greater success since leaving the oversight of the denomination.

Others may have a different experience than I.

I see no damage to anyone by leaving. (including Cleveland)

The truth as I have experienced it is this.

Cleveland does not care what you do.

Do what is best for your people.
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4/9/07 2:01 pm


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Post Narrower focus for local churches. 4thgenCOG
Travis,

In your reply to my last post you make a great argument for a narrow focus... but in the local church. When a local church tries to do too much, not much of anything gets done well. When a local church narrows its focus, and specializes in what it can do well, (This assumes cultural relevance, giftings of leadership, etc.) it has the greatest impact on its community, and thus the Kingdom.

So, the same should apply to an entire denomination right? The answer should be an obvious NO. No because a denomination with global reach must consider many areas of ministry, many cultures, many giftings and callings, etc...

I do agree that if a conference or training event is not done right it should not be done at all, but I disagree with the thought that a denomination should not offer training events, conferences, and even retreats. A denomination should offer all of the above, done with excellence, providing practical methods, and underlying principles for effective ministry.

Narrow focus... for each local church....Yes...for the denomination...No
Broad focus for an entire denomination...Yes...for the local church...No
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4/9/07 4:53 pm


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Post Re: Narrower focus for local churches. Travis Johnson
4thgenCOG wrote:
Travis,

In your reply to my last post you make a great argument for a narrow focus... but in the local church. When a local church tries to do too much, not much of anything gets done well. When a local church narrows its focus, and specializes in what it can do well, (This assumes cultural relevance, giftings of leadership, etc.) it has the greatest impact on its community, and thus the Kingdom.

So, the same should apply to an entire denomination right? The answer should be an obvious NO. No because a denomination with global reach must consider many areas of ministry, many cultures, many giftings and callings, etc...

I do agree that if a conference or training event is not done right it should not be done at all, but I disagree with the thought that a denomination should not offer training events, conferences, and even retreats. A denomination should offer all of the above, done with excellence, providing practical methods, and underlying principles for effective ministry.

Narrow focus... for each local church....Yes...for the denomination...No
Broad focus for an entire denomination...Yes...for the local church...No


Why is a singular focus important for a local church but not for a denomination? The denomination is a secondary administrative support. It shouldn't be a complex Uber-Church.

By doing a lot of stuff poorly, it is apparent to me and a growing list of named pastors that the denomination is getting good at siphoning off funds from the church which should be working towards the mission of Jesus to be spent on a bunch of time wasting, job creating inefficiencies.
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4/9/07 7:31 pm


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Post Re: Narrower focus for local churches. Travis Johnson
4thgenCOG wrote:

Narrow focus... for each local church....Yes...for the denomination...No
Broad focus for an entire denomination...Yes...for the local church...No


About three years ago, I attended a lunch for SFL pastors during South FL camp meeting. The Execs sat on the stage at Perrine Peters UMC eating at tables of their own. The pastors sat on the floor at tables. The message hit me right in the face. I comprehended it. But, I reject it.

Likewise, I reject the idea that the local church has to beat the PLEASE SELECT ANOTHER WORD out of our budgets to make it work. We have to be focused and on task. We have to take seriously the mission of Jesus. Yet, the denomination can play fast and loose while having a low regard for accountability and mission.

Brother, the treatment of the EHM budgets are simply embarrassing and need to be fixed. We have a blaring failure of our system in managing these funds. We should receive an apology for how they have been mismanaged right down to every tither that is under the impression that their tithe dollars are supporting Home Missions. The truth is that their funds are being sidetracked and treated like slush funds.

According to the Minutes, I am supposed to inform them of the "practices and policies" of the COG. If I actually shared that the practices DO NOT line up with the policies, there would be a significant amount of embarrassment on my part for my denomination.
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4/9/07 7:44 pm


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Post Simple answer 4thgenCOG
To the following question:
Quote:
Why is a singular focus important for a local church but not for a denomination?


Because the local church is local... the denomination is global.

Global responsibilities, require a broad focus, and many ministries. Evangelism (including, but not limited to church planting), Training, Education, Care Ministries, children's ministries, youth ministries, singles ministries, couples ministries, senior adult ministries, ...

A narrow focus is great for the local church, but would prove disastrous for a world wide denomination.
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4/9/07 7:54 pm


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Post Give honor to whom honor is due. 4thgenCOG
Travis said,
Quote:
The Execs sat on the stage at Perrine Peters UMC eating at tables of their own. The pastors sat on the floor at tables. The message hit me right in the face. I comprehended it. But, I reject it.


Why do you reject giving a place of honor to those over us in the Lord?
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4/9/07 7:58 pm


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Post OneBishopsOpinion
Interesting but easy to answer....No, the church should not leave the Church of God. Unless the ministry and church was started solely by you the harvest is not yours to take. The labor and resources are those of the faithful Church of God members locally and throughout the denomination......

Now with that said....if your personal ministry no longer mirrors that of the Church of God it may be time for you to move. Yes, a number of your people may leave with you but the Churches ministry is the Church of God. Simply make your move and allow someone with a like vision as the Church of God to complete the ministry for which the church was established.

Blessings to you and your call....I am sure there are enough unreached people in your area to fill both the Church of God and your new church.
Again, blessing to you in your work....but please be mindful of the labors of those who have come before you and those who will come after you....

Again, this is only One Bishops Opinion
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4/9/07 8:32 pm


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Post Re: Simple answer Travis Johnson
4thgenCOG wrote:
To the following question:
Quote:
Why is a singular focus important for a local church but not for a denomination?


Because the local church is local... the denomination is global.

Global responsibilities, require a broad focus, and many ministries. Evangelism (including, but not limited to church planting), Training, Education, Care Ministries, children's ministries, youth ministries, singles ministries, couples ministries, senior adult ministries, ...

A narrow focus is great for the local church, but would prove disastrous for a world wide denomination.


Actually, the denomination is in Cleveland. The church is global.

The church would exist and flourish without the above mentioned denominational trappings. The denomination does not evangelize and it is not missional. It only functions off of what the local church gives it. And, if the local church didn't give it anything, people would still be evangelized, youth would be reached, children would receive ministry, widows would be taken care of, singles would still be useful in the body, our people would be educated, and even churches would be planted. Believe it or not but, couples would grow in Christ. And, seniors would still have retreats and ministry available.

Eventually, somebody will put a foot in the backside of this embarrassing waste and reorient our value system. When that happens, I pray we have fewer homes and town cars in Cleveland and more local people around the world.
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4/10/07 7:15 am


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Post Re: Give honor to whom honor is due. Travis Johnson
4thgenCOG wrote:
Travis said,
Quote:
The Execs sat on the stage at Perrine Peters UMC eating at tables of their own. The pastors sat on the floor at tables. The message hit me right in the face. I comprehended it. But, I reject it.


Why do you reject giving a place of honor to those over us in the Lord?


I don't reject reject giving honor to those over me. I reject the chasm that has been created in the COG between administrators and the rest of the church. We have pastors that do it in their churches too. They are just as wrong. We are called to be servants, fellow laborers. Too often, we look like we have a bunch of mini-popes strutting around like we are God's gift to the earth. We are broken down sinners who have been saved and redeemed.

If Jesus could gather with His disciples, eat, and recline with them...even reaching for the same piece of bread as his betrayer, can't we do the same?
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4/10/07 7:37 am


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Post Governmental Structure... 4thgenCOG
Travis said:
Quote:
Actually, the denomination is in Cleveland. The church is global.


We are probably getting closer to the heart of the issue now. It is an issue of church governmental structure. First, let me say that I do not believe that there is any one governmental structure commanded in Scripture. There are hints of several, but no one fully described nor proscribed. From that we can understand the differing structures in existence among various churches. Each type of structure has its pros and its cons. There is no perfect structure.

The Church of God has chosen a centralized form of government. In a centralized form of government the denomination exists everywhere there is a local Church of God. Or in other words each local church is part of a larger whole. It cannot be separated from the whole and still be part of it. Since the Church of God has churches and missions in over 160 nations, the denomination is global.

Other organizations have chosen differing forms of government. Their choice of governmental structure is just that, their choice. Neither right nor wrong, simply their choice.

What you have suggested, not as directly in this thread as in other past threads, is that the Church of God decentralize. But as I have answered that suggestion before, I will again. You cannot decentralize a centralized form of government. The Church of God is by choice a centralized form of government.

I, and it would seem, a vast majority of others who make up the ranks of the ministry in the Church of God, desire/prefer our centralized structure. (As a side note, because no form of church government is perfect, there is always room for improvement. I want improvement in the Church of God.) What I do not want is to throw away a centralized form of government (to decentralize). There are other choices, but I have chosen the COG precisely because it is centralized.
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4/10/07 9:32 am


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Post Honor or chasm a matter of perspective. 4thgenCOG
What the seating arrangement of a meal at campmeeting indicates to an onlooker is a matter of perspective.

I see having a head table, or a special section a matter of giving honor and respect to those who have been entrusted with a position of authority over me in the Lord.

I am happy to have someone as my overseer. I see that as God's order. Therefore I have no problem with them sitting in a seat of honor at a campmeeting meal function. Those very men have each set at my table at a restaurant when they came to be with me in worship. Several have even set with me at my table in the parsonage. I am honored that they would come to where I labor, go out to eat with me at a restaurant, or even grace my home by fellowshipping around my dinning room table. I see no chasm creating, nor mini-pope attitude displaying, in them being seated in a seat of honor in a more formal setting like a campmeeting meal function.

By the way the same Jesus who shared the meal time with His disciples as you described, also spoke of our choosing a lower seat in a more formal setting. If we are then invited to a seat of honor we can go to it.
The positions held by our leaders afford them that invitation. I am not jealous of their seats, nor offended that they have them.
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4/10/07 9:55 am


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Post Re: Honor or chasm a matter of perspective. Travis Johnson
4thGen,

It is elitism. We have a lot of it. We promote it. Our culture shuns it. Christ rejected it. If you look at a lot of our churches, you would think that we are Rock Stars, Politicians, and World Leaders prominently in the business of self-promotion. Where is the heart of Jesus in the eight foot high, elevated table and 50 serfs sitting low? I know a lot of people do it because it is expected or offered. But, that doesn't make it right. AND, it communicates the wrong message to our pastors, who inturn emulate the same foolishness.

Honestly, the entourages of "dignitaries" walking around in pecking order at our functions is comical. I can't imagine Jesus feeding the 5,000 from a throne backed up by his dozens and dozens of wingmen sitting in slightly smaller thrones. I think this does an injustice to the cause of Jesus. Thank God for the guys that are dropping this practice in the can!

Quote:
Matthew 23:6-12
6 And how they love to sit at the head table at banquets and in the most prominent seats in the synagogue! 7 They enjoy the attention they get on the streets, and they enjoy being called 'Rabbi.' 8 Don't ever let anyone call you 'Rabbi,' for you have only one teacher, and all of you are on the same level as brothers and sisters. 9 And don't address anyone here on earth as 'Father,' for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father. 10 And don't let anyone call you 'Master,' for there is only one master, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you must be a servant. 12 But those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.


Quote:
Matthew 18:1-6
1 About that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Which of us is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?" 2 Jesus called a small child over to him and put the child among them.... 4 Therefore, anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.


Quote:

Matthew 19:30
30 But many who seem to be important now will be the least important then, and those who are considered least here will be the greatest then.


We have some aministrators and pastors who are genuine servants...a lot of us are. I'm working through my own stuff and have to deal with this in my own flesh. I cannot believe that there is anyone in the COG that doesn't want to be successful or highly esteemed. But, we need to stop multiplying this attitude in our people by modeling this overdeveloped sense of entitlement and importance.
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4/10/07 1:12 pm


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Post Re: Governmental Structure... Travis Johnson
4thgenCOG wrote:
What you have suggested, not as directly in this thread as in other past threads, is that the Church of God decentralize. But as I have answered that suggestion before, I will again. You cannot decentralize a centralized form of government. The Church of God is by choice a centralized form of government.


With great power, comes great responsibility. See Jesus words in Luke 12:48:

Quote:
Luke 12:48
48 "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.


The denomination, the centralized government organized by the local church, has been entrusted with much and it is failing the stewardship of millions of annualized Evangelism & Home Missions dollars. So, the denominational administrators (including state councils and evangelism board members) need to be reined in and corrected for their mismanagement of Missions dollars.

This issue is about gross mismanagement of our EHM funds by our centralized government. The denomination is trusted by our pastors, churches, and congregants. The denomination has utterly failed in the stewardship of those funds. I pray the money gets taken away from the poor stewards of these funds and reassigned to someone that will honor the mission of Jesus and the wishes of the General Assembly.
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4/10/07 1:24 pm


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Post Sorry Travis, but I still disagree 4thgenCOG
You said,
Quote:
It is elitism.


Travis, I still say that is a matter of perspective.

There is a time and place for both formal and informal. A state level meeting is an appropriate time and place for formal. Giving honor to whom honor is due, and that is a New Testament principle.
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4/10/07 8:40 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
4thGen,

There is a time to show honor. Actually, we should honor those over us, period. That is one reason why I am disappointed with how the EHM budgets have been wasted. Our administration has refused to honor the General Assembly, the highest ruling body of the COG.

So, while we create lofty thrones to separate out dignitaries from the commoners, the EHM budget is squandered, another church is closed, the mission is neglected.

I will say that we've got some guys that are moving and pushing and reaching. Guys like Bill Isaacs and Martin Taylor are breaking new ground and serving. They are to be commended in a huge way. Changing the broken stuff in the COG is going to take some work and time. But, the problems need to be identified and bold leadership needs to be exhibited.

Ignoring it and pretending it isn't there will do no one a favor.
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4/10/07 9:25 pm


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Post Re: Sorry Travis, but I still disagree Travis Johnson
4thgenCOG wrote:
You said,
Quote:
It is elitism.


Travis, I still say that is a matter of perspective.

There is a time and place for both formal and informal. A state level meeting is an appropriate time and place for formal. Giving honor to whom honor is due, and that is a New Testament principle.


Who deserves the most honor? The person making six figures, receiving honorariums, full health insurance, retirement, and constant accolades? Or, the guy on the frontline working an extra job, digging out a church, bailing out a church, or turning around a church that has a history of eating pastors?

If I am going to prop someone up on a pedestal, it is going to be the guy that is sacrificing consistently with no praise and little affirmation. It will encourage him and inspire others.
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4/10/07 9:30 pm


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