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 Kevin ????? |
4thgenCOG |
Kevin, you put in quotes my post to Travis and his reply, then you said, | Quote: | thanks for letting all of us young guys know where we stand.
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What are you talking about. I was speaking to the issue of Sr. Adult Retreats being legitimate ministry, but have in no way spoken disparagingly of any age group. I love children's ministry, and have worn clown outfits, taken pies in the face, taught with drama, object lessons, illusions, etc. in order to reach children. I have ministered to teens using many, many methods. I have also preached in nursing homes, and assisted living centers. One thing is for sure... I have to use different approaches for the different groups. If I don't I have very little chance of truly reaching most of them.
I applaud the efforts of those reaching the post modern culture in exciting new ways. But I equally applaud the, just as sincere, and legitimate, efforts of those seeking to minister to the graying culture of the US.
We need BOTH! The reality is we need to become better at ministering to more cultures, sub-cultures, generations, and people groups. The last thing we need to do is hamstring ourselves by overly narrowing our focus, and limiting ourselves to only a few select methods. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 197
3/30/07 1:38 pm
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| Regarding the 15%. |
4thgenCOG |
In our governmental structure, both at International and State levels, ministry responsibilities / portfolios, are divided up among the various positions. (YCE Directors have a portfolio that contains x number of ministries, EHM Directors have a portfolio that contains x number of ministries, etc.) The budgets for these departments are also divided up according to portfolios.
It would be great if we could simply elect, appoint, or hire one person to direct or lead each ministry area so that the portfolios would not contain multiple jobs for each person. The reality is, we cannot do that. It would take more than 100% of the money.
We often talk about Cleveland or Tampa (insert your state office here) as if they are rolling in the money, wasting millions, and millions of dollars each year. From my limited knowledge of the offices though, there is always more ministry dreams, ideas, vision, and desire, than there is money to do it.
I have found the same to be true in my local church. If we kept 100% of out tithe income it still would not be enough to do all we want, dream, and envision. If every church sent in 100% to HQ's....that would still not be enough to do all that is wanted, dreamed, and envisioned.
As a denomination we have chosen to send in 15% of our tithe income (not total income, but tithe income) as a means of supporting our efforts to be larger than any one local church. My 15% means that I am ministering not only in N.E. Florida, but also in Miami, Tampa, the Panhandle... and the world. My 15% means I am not only striving to build the church I am pastoring, but also plant churches in areas across the state, and around the globe. My 15% means that I not only have a Sr. Adult ministry to the seniors living in my area, but I also minister to those around the state. I not only have the opportunity to better myself through training, and train my local staff and volunteers, but I am providing training to ministers from all over Florida, and again around the world. My 15% means I not only provide ministry to the teens who attend our youth group, but I also provide teen talent, special retreats, and summer youth camps for youth in many other parts of Florida. Name ministry area, after ministry area and the same applies. I am thankful to be part of the Church of God.
The way I see it, my 15% investment outside of my local church, accomplishes much more than I could accomplish myself here locally with the same 15%. I rejoice each month as I sign the monthly report checks my treasurer prepares. I have loved seeing them increase, and hope that they continue to do so.
Last edited by 4thgenCOG on 4/1/07 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 197
3/30/07 2:07 pm
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KevinLloyd |
"This young overly zealous blind whipper snapper"
i highlighted this in your post. when you wrote this you were referring to travis i believe.
i figure that you are letting all of us "overly zealous blind young whipper snappers" know where we stand. kinda makes us sound like we're not worth listening to doesn't it?
so again, thanks for letting us know where we stand.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/30/07 2:51 pm
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| The senior adults are the ones that have paid the bills |
georgiapath |
| for years. They were willing to do without things they wanted, to keep the church going. They younger generation won't do it, if they have extra money they will buy another car, or a bigger house. It's time the seniors got something out of the deal. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7587
3/31/07 8:18 am
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Leigh Teabing |
| KevinLloyd wrote: | "This young overly zealous blind whipper snapper"
i highlighted this in your post. when you wrote this you were referring to travis i believe.
i figure that you are letting all of us "overly zealous blind young whipper snappers" know where we stand. kinda makes us sound like we're not worth listening to doesn't it?
so again, thanks for letting us know where we stand. |
Kevin, read the posts a bit more carefully please. I believe it was Travis who referred to himself as "This young overly zealous blind whipper snapper" - nobody else.
I might be old, but I can still read & I still know how to think before I answer.  |
Friendly Face
Posts: 205
3/31/07 10:39 am
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| Re: Nice try at a smoke screen, but... |
Travis Johnson |
| 4thgenCOG wrote: | | Travis I am blown away by your sheer disregard of what I actually was saying in my post, or maybe you ran into one of those pesky trees that keep getting in the way of your seeing the forest and gave yourself a concussion that disabled you from being able to understand. |
This young, concussed, disabled, overly zealous whipper snapper who cannot help but running into trees in search of the forest will now respond. My title is getting longer and I must say thank you for naming me so aptly.
| Quote: | | The point I was making, that you seem to have missed, is that just because the method (I.E. Senior Adult Retreat) used is not the method you choose to use, does not make it less legitimate as ministry. I am not old enough to attend the Sr. Adult Retreats, but I do know that Seniors are one of the largest and fastest growing segments of the US population. The church cannot just push them aside, forget about them, and move on. |
I affirm evangelism targeting the senior adult population. But, our senior adult retreat, though it is ministry is not evangelism. It may affirm these awesome people (my family included). It may edify and encourage. But, it is not a soul winning initiative. And, it certainly should not be funded by the Evangelism Budget.
I was a nursing home pastor for 3 years in Chattanooga. Then, I was the Evangelism Pastor at North Cleveland for an additional 4 years where we had between 40-50 nursing home services every Sunday. That was evangelism. That ministry was and continues to be very important to me. We always had around 60 trained and commissioned nursing home pastors and substitue pastors on my very reasonable salary plus a $5,000 annual budget. We ministered to around 1,000 people every Sunday on an annual budget smaller than the budget for the Senior Adult Retreat, which again IS NOT evangelism. The fruit was significant. And, as much as I love those that have gone before us, it did not target them. It reached out to the forgotten, lonely, and spiritually hungry.
We just need to face reality on the stewardship of Evangelism and Home Mission Budgets in most every state and region. It is largely spent on administration and non-core issues. It is impossible to argue otherwise when such a miniscule percentage impacts a lost person. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
3/31/07 11:03 am
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KevinLloyd |
| Leigh Teabing wrote: | | KevinLloyd wrote: | "This young overly zealous blind whipper snapper"
i highlighted this in your post. when you wrote this you were referring to travis i believe.
i figure that you are letting all of us "overly zealous blind young whipper snappers" know where we stand. kinda makes us sound like we're not worth listening to doesn't it?
so again, thanks for letting us know where we stand. |
Kevin, read the posts a bit more carefully please. I believe it was Travis who referred to himself as "This young overly zealous blind whipper snapper" - nobody else.
I might be old, but I can still read & I still know how to think before I answer. |
dude...my bad. didn't mean to misread. thanks for letting me know my mistake without being a jerk about it...oh, my bad, you are being a jerk about it.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/31/07 12:08 pm
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| Kevin |
wahoo |
I know you learned a ton of good stuff from your former Sr. Pastor, I don't think the smart aleck, know it all attitude is part of what you learned.
I'd hate to be in your new church and disagree with you about anything. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 557
3/31/07 8:31 pm
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| Re: Kevin |
KevinLloyd |
| wahoo wrote: | I know you learned a ton of good stuff from your former Sr. Pastor, I don't think the smart aleck, know it all attitude is part of what you learned.
I'd hate to be in your new church and disagree with you about anything. |
i don't have a know it all attitude. i do get fired up by some of the stuff that's said on here.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/31/07 9:37 pm
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| Kevin |
4thgenCOG |
| I would be interested to your response to the actual content of my posts. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 197
4/1/07 3:22 pm
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| Travis... |
4thgenCOG |
I addressed the multiple portfolio situation in a previous post, but I'll hit it again.
With the limited number of personnel in our Int. and State Offices the many responsibilities have to be divided up among them. The EHM Directors job carries a diverse portfolio: Church planting, strengthening struggling churches, training pastors, managing the team of state evangelists, sr. adult ministries, jail and prison ministries, etc. Alot of responsibilities for one person, for one department, but that is the reality of a limited budget. Yes, I did say a limited budget. In the FL State Office we have 1 AB, 1 YCE Dir., 2 EHM Dir's, and J.W. who I would agree is probably dead weight. We complain that we have too many executives, and yet when we see the diverse portfolios they carry, we get upset that they have to also divide their budget to fit their portfolio.
You have often spoken of non-core, or off mission areas, but it is impossible to Biblically narrow the entire mission, purpose, and responsibility of the church to 1 thing. Even if that one thing is "to seek and to save the lost." You have to ignore way to much of the Bible to do that. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 197
4/1/07 3:34 pm
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Memory03 |
OK... no free haircuts... 
you trying to steal my business  
_________________
Be Blessed!
Memory03
8233 post at the original Acts Board...
Real Men get their haircut in a Barber Shop... The rest go to beauty parlors... |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 21953
4/1/07 4:01 pm
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| Re: Travis... |
Travis Johnson |
| 4thgenCOG wrote: | | I addressed the multiple portfolio situation in a previous post, but I'll hit it again. |
Does it ever occur to us that we are trying to do too much stuff? One of my favorite things to do is throw stuff away. I've thrown away 16 tons of stuff since pastoring this church. It is a great feeling to get rid of good stuff that is getting in the way of getting the main job done. I'll discuss "the multiple portfolio situation" with you. But, know that I reject the initial premise...that our present "multiple portfolio situation" is even necessary.
| Quote: | | With the limited number of personnel in our Int. and State Offices the many responsibilities have to be divided up among them. |
You're joking right?! Limited? We cannot build enough buildings to contain them all. Even the new IHQ does not house everyone in Cleveland. If we liquidated all of our real estate there, the real estate market in Cleveland would tank.
| Quote: | | The EHM Directors job carries a diverse portfolio: Church planting, strengthening struggling churches, training pastors, managing the team of state evangelists, sr. adult ministries, jail and prison ministries, etc. Alot of responsibilities for one person, for one department, but that is the reality of a limited budget. |
1. We have over 13.5 million dollars per year earmarked by the General Assembly for Home Missions. We think we have to have dozens of Evangelism and Home Missions Director to administrate that. By the the time salaries are paid alone, massive chunks are gone. Don't get me wrong. Waymon Miller is a man of integrity with passion for ministry. David Nitz, while I don't know him like I know Waymon, is an excellent man. We couldn't do much better than these guys.
It is a great thing we have good men in these positions. Sometimes we don't. When that happens it generally stinks for the people on the receiving end of our "Evangelism Ministries."
2. We have too many activities being financed out of the EHM budget to the point that it is false advertising to call it Evangelism and Home Missions. Change the name to the "$1 Million of Cash for Good or Mediocre Stuff Fund." That would be more accurate.
| Quote: | | Yes, I did say a limited budget. In the FL State Office we have 1 AB, 1 YCE Dir., 2 EHM Dir's, and J.W. who I would agree is probably dead weight. We complain that we have too many executives, and yet when we see the diverse portfolios they carry, we get upset that they have to also divide their budget to fit their portfolio. |
Do you know the actual employee count? More than 2 dozen. I'll dig up an accurate count and report back unless you want to first. Again, they are some pretty fine people...dedicated to their jobs and ministries. But, we are all over the map in the ministries we expect for ourselves out of "administrative offices."
So, I'm not complaining about a potential shrinking in portfolio size. I'd be the first one to pick up the ax to start cutting. Until that magical day, I'll have to point out that propping up dying churches and hosting Senior Adult Socials is not evangelism. Let's just get back to the point of the mandate of the General Assembly as it pertains to the EHM Budgets administered by our states.
| Quote: | | You have often spoken of non-core, or off mission areas, but it is impossible to Biblically narrow the entire mission, purpose, and responsibility of the church to 1 thing. Even if that one thing is "to seek and to save the lost." You have to ignore way to much of the Bible to do that. |
Let me be eternally clear. This discussion is not about the mission of the church. It is about the mission of the EHM Budget. That would be Evangelism and Home Missions...not media, not seniors, not anything else but the Great Commission of Jesus. I can hardly imagine Jesus giving us a pat on the back for the way we steward these funds. He'd probably kick a lot of backside and slap us around for not doing the Father's business. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
4/1/07 6:22 pm
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| I agree with you both... |
COG TODAY |
Travis says that the EHM money should be used for evangelism and to that I agree.
4thGen says Senior Adult Retreats and Media are evangelism and to that I agree.
What we really should be talking about is the best use of EHM money and stop ridiculing the decision makers before us. I certainly think we could do things differently in the ways we spend money on Evangelism and be more mission minded. But it is simply not true that Senior Adult and Media, etc events are not evangelistic too. I recently went to our EHM sponsored men's retreat. Seven men were saved in one of those services. That sounds like evangelism to me.
I must agree with Travis in that I think there is a better use of those dollars and I can only hope that leadership will lead Cleveland and our state offices to become lean mean soul winning machines. I know I am endeavoring to do that as a pastor of a local church. I have not figured it all out yet, but we are getting there everyday. I sometimes think that if I ever get there I am probably doing something very wrong. God keeps perfecting me(individual holiness), so I imagine he is still perfecting the church(corporate holiness).
Maybe a better use of time on here would be sharing ideas as to how we could better do evangelism. Maybe acts celerate could become more of an idea sharing forum and less of tearing down sharing forum. Maybe positive energy would be more effective... |
Friendly Face
Posts: 233
4/2/07 9:03 am
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| Re: I agree with you both... |
Travis Johnson |
| COG TODAY wrote: | Travis says that the EHM money should be used for evangelism and to that I agree.
4thGen says Senior Adult Retreats and Media are evangelism and to that I agree.
What we really should be talking about is the best use of EHM money and stop ridiculing the decision makers before us. I certainly think we could do things differently in the ways we spend money on Evangelism and be more mission minded. But it is simply not true that Senior Adult and Media, etc events are not evangelistic too. I recently went to our EHM sponsored men's retreat. Seven men were saved in one of those services. That sounds like evangelism to me.
I must agree with Travis in that I think there is a better use of those dollars and I can only hope that leadership will lead Cleveland and our state offices to become lean mean soul winning machines. I know I am endeavoring to do that as a pastor of a local church. I have not figured it all out yet, but we are getting there everyday. I sometimes think that if I ever get there I am probably doing something very wrong. God keeps perfecting me(individual holiness), so I imagine he is still perfecting the church(corporate holiness).
Maybe a better use of time on here would be sharing ideas as to how we could better do evangelism. Maybe acts celerate could become more of an idea sharing forum and less of tearing down sharing forum. Maybe positive energy would be more effective... |
COG Today,
I totally 100% back our leadership in the state. Martin Taylor has been incredibly affirming and direct with me. I have not experienced any double talk (that says a lot). He's been a strong leader of our state. We have HUGE challenges (hurricane insurance) and he is tackling them upfront with a confident and engaging attitude. So, please understand I am not ridiculing leadership. But, I am talking unapologetically about uor problems. We have a long history of mismanaging our Evangelism funds. One day, we will answer for it. We will be left stuttering and stumbling over our words trying to explain why we tried to do so much good stuff, instead of doing the excellent stuff Christ commissioned us to do.
Ultimately, I am saying is that the General Assembly directed that our EHM funds be spent on Evangelism and Home Missions. 100% of those funds should be spent that way without exception.
My ideas for change would be very simple and sweeping. Send 100% of EHM funds to church planting and training for new church starts. Allow those funds to be managed by regional groups of pastors who have a demonstrable track record in church planting and church growth.
Let them identify the church planters to fund. Let them utilize existing networks for profiling planters and training in launch strategies. Those regional groups of pastors can develop reporting and mentoring strategies.
That eliminates a ton of overhead and focuses us on the most potent and lasting form of Evangelism.
The line items I would be quickest to eliminate are the positions of state evangelists, senior adult retreats, and state funded retreats. These activities can still function. But, they should function with plenty of exposure from functioning with the endorsement of each particular state. They should also be totally self sufficient.
If local churches can put on successful and profitable conferences, our state entities shouldn't have to be going in red to do the same things. If the conferences are substantive and relevant, they will have no problem attracting enough participants to make them break even.
The last few conferences I have gone to have sold out. Waiting to get conference tickets ensures that you won't get a seat. Yet, too often our conferences are undersold and predictable. I believe this is a direct result of having too much money and not having to try hard to make it work. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
4/2/07 12:06 pm
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| Kevin... |
Grandpa Cleland |
The more I read of your posts, the more I feel I wasted my time posting anything to you...
Good luck to you and yours...
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Acts-celerater
Posts: 627
4/2/07 12:23 pm
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| Re: Kevin... |
KevinLloyd |
| Grandpa Cleland wrote: | The more I read of your posts, the more I feel I wasted my time posting anything to you...
Good luck to you and yours...
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ok. don't know where that came from. but thanks for letting me know...i guess.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
4/2/07 2:20 pm
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| My feelings on the matter... |
Newbie1 |
I want to first say that I too am a young pastor and often get frustrated at the way things are done. My church is VERY progressive. Heck, I wear jeans every service and have almost worn shorts a time or two.
Anyway, I personally think it would be wrong for you to take your church independent. My reasoning is because it's not YOUR church anyway...it's the denominations church that has entrusted you to lead it. By you taking the church out of the COG...it's almost like you are a thief. Hear me...I'm not attacking...I just couldn't think of a better word.
My honest feelings are for you to just start your own church. I am not the kind of person that usually recommends local ministers to start churches in their same town, but in this case...it seems to be more honorable than stealing your church from the COG.
Some may disagree with me and that is alright. Trust me that I am not a die-hard COGer. I am 31 years old and have often times thought about leaving the COG myself. BUT, if you are going to do it...be able to look back and know you did it right. I mean really, think about the message you are sending to your congregation...it can only come back to hurt you.
Good luck in your decision. My prayers are with you. |
Newbie
Posts: 4
4/4/07 8:29 pm
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| Re: My feelings on the matter... |
KevinLloyd |
| Newbie1 wrote: | I want to first say that I too am a young pastor and often get frustrated at the way things are done. My church is VERY progressive. Heck, I wear jeans every service and have almost worn shorts a time or two.
Anyway, I personally think it would be wrong for you to take your church independent. My reasoning is because it's not YOUR church anyway...it's the denominations church that has entrusted you to lead it. By you taking the church out of the COG...it's almost like you are a thief. Hear me...I'm not attacking...I just couldn't think of a better word.
My honest feelings are for you to just start your own church. I am not the kind of person that usually recommends local ministers to start churches in their same town, but in this case...it seems to be more honorable than stealing your church from the COG.
Some may disagree with me and that is alright. Trust me that I am not a die-hard COGer. I am 31 years old and have often times thought about leaving the COG myself. BUT, if you are going to do it...be able to look back and know you did it right. I mean really, think about the message you are sending to your congregation...it can only come back to hurt you.
Good luck in your decision. My prayers are with you. |
please know, if this is directed to me, i appreciate the manner of your post...but i'm not taking my church out of the denom...i am starting one.
again, thanks for the post...it was well said.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
4/4/07 10:01 pm
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| Again, the focus is too narrow... |
4thgenCOG |
Travis said,
| Quote: | | Send 100% of EHM funds to church planting and training for new church starts. |
100% to church planting leaves out too much. What about jail and prison ministries, what about evangelism in already existing churches, what about strengthening struggling churches, training pastors of already existing churches?...
The forest is made up of more than 1 tree... No matter how important that 1 tree may be. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 197
4/8/07 4:04 pm
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