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KevinLloyd |
| Telecaster wrote: | | KevinLloyd wrote: | | The main ? on this post has been "WWJD?" Of course, we live in a different day than he did. But I still hold to the fact that Jesus would've used ANYTHING SHORT OF SIN to reach the lost...secular music, movie clips, culturally hot topics, felt need issues, etc to communicate & engage the audience. |
I'll agree He would use anything Kevin, but would He have replaced the sacred parts of a worship service with worldly things? I say no. At the basis of everything He did was a call to repentance. He was brutally honest with those who knew the law and didn't have it in their hearts. They had taken the law and perverted it to become excuses for their actions and beliefs. Unfortunately, I feel your movement has done much the same. If you wanted to get real technical, Jesus even gave the idea of how to do praise and worship. On more than one occasion, before He spoke to the disciples using illustrations and such, it says they came together and sang hymns, or interpreted, praises unto God. Secular music has always been around, and I think it's important to note that when Christ led disciples in worship, he used what is referred to as hymns or what would be today our praise and worship. Substituting secular songs by artists who stand for everything but Christ can't lead people into anything but emotionalism, and emotionalism doesn't save. I've said my piece more than one time on this topic and have questions that have gone unanswered, so I'm done. |
First, thanks for being done.
Just like Jesus, the goal of everything that we do is repentance & changed lives. I don't know how/when you heard otherwise. We use anything short of sin to engage people w/ the goal of seeing their lives transformed. That simple.
In regards to the people who knew the law that Jesus was the most critical to. We see it from 2 different viewpoints. You see me as the Pharisee. I see people who come w/ thoughts like yours as Pharisees. Let's just say that that's where we're different. The only argument that I can have I guess is to say that the Pharisees were the type who saw all of the wrong in what Jesus did...in his methods. I have never told you that your methods are wrong...but that's all I've ever heard from you.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd
Last edited by KevinLloyd on 3/5/07 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/5/07 2:51 pm
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| Re: Poimen, Telecaster,Wvwatchman have posted some good |
Layperson |
[quote="Pastor Gary
Then maybe you can answer the question I asked Poimen:
You interpret those verses as an exhaustive list? (As if it said "...teaching and admonishing one another only in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs..." -- that seems to presume something not said in the scriptures referenced.
Do you use the same method of exegesis for this passage?
"Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals. Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD." Psalm 150:4-6
Are those the ONLY instruments allowed? Do you use both loud and high-sounding cymbals at your church? Timbrel and dance? No instruments not listed?[/quote]
I think you know what this scripture means. With the wisdom you have displayed in the past I certainly would be shocked if you don't. You are either dealing in semantics or trying to be argumentative.
Of course it does not limit to a certain song(s) but instead describes the STYLE of music. I think you knew that. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1747
3/5/07 3:00 pm
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Telecaster |
| KevinLloyd wrote: | | Telecaster wrote: | | KevinLloyd wrote: | | The main ? on this post has been "WWJD?" Of course, we live in a different day than he did. But I still hold to the fact that Jesus would've used ANYTHING SHORT OF SIN to reach the lost...secular music, movie clips, culturally hot topics, felt need issues, etc to communicate & engage the audience. |
I'll agree He would use anything Kevin, but would He have replaced the sacred parts of a worship service with worldly things? I say no. At the basis of everything He did was a call to repentance. He was brutally honest with those who knew the law and didn't have it in their hearts. They had taken the law and perverted it to become excuses for their actions and beliefs. Unfortunately, I feel your movement has done much the same. If you wanted to get real technical, Jesus even gave the idea of how to do praise and worship. On more than one occasion, before He spoke to the disciples using illustrations and such, it says they came together and sang hymns, or interpreted, praises unto God. Secular music has always been around, and I think it's important to note that when Christ led disciples in worship, he used what is referred to as hymns or what would be today our praise and worship. Substituting secular songs by artists who stand for everything but Christ can't lead people into anything but emotionalism, and emotionalism doesn't save. I've said my piece more than one time on this topic and have questions that have gone unanswered, so I'm done. |
First, thanks for being done.
Just like Jesus, the goal of everything that we do is repentance & changed lives. I don't know how/when you heard otherwise. We use anything short of sin to engage people w/ the goal of seeing their lives transformed. That simple.
In regards to the people who knew the law that Jesus was the most critical to. We see it from 2 different viewpoints. You see me as the Pharisee. I see people who come w/ thoughts like yours as Pharisees. Let's just say that that's where we're different. The only argument that I can have I guess is to say that the Pharisees were the type who saw all of the wrong in what Jesus did...in his methods. I have never told you that your methods are wrong...but that's all I've ever heard from you. |
And you continue to ignore my questions and call anyone who doesn't follow your rational Pharisees. I'm curious to know how we would be Pharisees, but considering your thankful I'm done, I don't expect any answer from you especially to a direct question. It seems you ignore and coward from them and put up a cliche post. You won't and can't quote scripture to denounce the claims myself and others have made. Instead you just talk about winning souls. Let the record stand as it is. Kevin refuses to answer Biblical questions and thinks that all those against him are Pharisees. He also would like for everyone of us who doesn't agree with him to be done. And you call us closeminded. I'm at least trying to have some dialogue from a scriptural point of view and try to understand, because so far for 8 pages, I've not seen any thing deemed understandable. So it is what it is. For your sake and your last post, maybe I'll just come "undone." I hope you realize you're calling some of the most respected and mission minded men in many denominations "Pharisees" simply because they don't agree with you. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/5/07 4:10 pm
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Telecaster |
| String Bender55 wrote: | | Telecaster wrote: | | Reality wrote: | | Give 'em a break. It would take a week to read this whole thread. Chill out! |
Well he should read it then. If someone's going to take the time to respond to a thread, reading it first would be a good place to start. |
I think VoM was just making a point. I know what he is saying and he was just giving his opinion. So change your string Telecaster. Use some Ernie Ball Super Slinky's in the hot pink pack.
Buy them on-line and they are cheaper. Try Musicians friend! |
I'll have to do that String. I'm not too fond of jumping into the middle of a conversation only to throw a post out there that's arleady been hammered out and would only cause a regression. Maybe my strings are too tightly wound in this thread. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/5/07 4:13 pm
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KevinLloyd |
| Telecaster wrote: | | KevinLloyd wrote: | | Telecaster wrote: | | KevinLloyd wrote: | | The main ? on this post has been "WWJD?" Of course, we live in a different day than he did. But I still hold to the fact that Jesus would've used ANYTHING SHORT OF SIN to reach the lost...secular music, movie clips, culturally hot topics, felt need issues, etc to communicate & engage the audience. |
I'll agree He would use anything Kevin, but would He have replaced the sacred parts of a worship service with worldly things? I say no. At the basis of everything He did was a call to repentance. He was brutally honest with those who knew the law and didn't have it in their hearts. They had taken the law and perverted it to become excuses for their actions and beliefs. Unfortunately, I feel your movement has done much the same. If you wanted to get real technical, Jesus even gave the idea of how to do praise and worship. On more than one occasion, before He spoke to the disciples using illustrations and such, it says they came together and sang hymns, or interpreted, praises unto God. Secular music has always been around, and I think it's important to note that when Christ led disciples in worship, he used what is referred to as hymns or what would be today our praise and worship. Substituting secular songs by artists who stand for everything but Christ can't lead people into anything but emotionalism, and emotionalism doesn't save. I've said my piece more than one time on this topic and have questions that have gone unanswered, so I'm done. |
First, thanks for being done.
Just like Jesus, the goal of everything that we do is repentance & changed lives. I don't know how/when you heard otherwise. We use anything short of sin to engage people w/ the goal of seeing their lives transformed. That simple.
In regards to the people who knew the law that Jesus was the most critical to. We see it from 2 different viewpoints. You see me as the Pharisee. I see people who come w/ thoughts like yours as Pharisees. Let's just say that that's where we're different. The only argument that I can have I guess is to say that the Pharisees were the type who saw all of the wrong in what Jesus did...in his methods. I have never told you that your methods are wrong...but that's all I've ever heard from you. |
And you continue to ignore my questions and call anyone who doesn't follow your rational Pharisees. I'm curious to know how we would be Pharisees, but considering your thankful I'm done, I don't expect any answer from you especially to a direct question. It seems you ignore and coward from them and put up a cliche post. You won't and can't quote scripture to denounce the claims myself and others have made. Instead you just talk about winning souls. Let the record stand as it is. Kevin refuses to answer Biblical questions and thinks that all those against him are Pharisees. He also would like for everyone of us who doesn't agree with him to be done. And you call us closeminded. I'm at least trying to have some dialogue from a scriptural point of view and try to understand, because so far for 8 pages, I've not seen any thing deemed understandable. So it is what it is. For your sake and your last post, maybe I'll just come "undone." I hope you realize you're calling some of the most respected and mission minded men in many denominations "Pharisees" simply because they don't agree with you. |
Dude, if I read correctly, you called me one in your previous post.
As far as the bible goes and me not having courage to answer direct questions. Here's my best answer...the bible tells me to "go out and complel them to come in." Frankly, I'm doing all that I can in my culture to compel people to come in. I design my church to reach the lost...I'm not going to apologize for that or feel like I have to defend myself for that. I'm doing what I can to answer our ?'s. Nothing I say seems to matter or is what you want to hear. All I know is this: I'm doing what GOD has called me to, not what you have called me to do or not do. I'm designing church for people who don't like church, who've been hurt by it, or who drive by churches every Sunday in order to go to something that is alot more engaging. I'm not saying that what I do is perfect...but it works. It's not watered down...it's truth. If you don't like the way that I do it...fine. I really don't care. You can word your arguments however you want to...I don't care. And, I'm not calling people who don't agree w/ me a PHarisee...I'm calling people pharisees who throw religion around and bible around as to why they are resistant to change or see things from another side. I don't care if you do things like I do or not...but it's the heart of a Pharisee to hate on what's different...I have not done that.
I just don't get why some (not all) of you guys hate on this style. Is it because so many new churches are starting and growing to the thousands in the first year or two? It seems like you would champion that. Who cares about the methods?
So, dude, you're off my radar. I'm better than this petty argument w/ you. Say what you want about me. I'm doing what God has called me to.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/5/07 4:23 pm
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Telecaster |
| KevinLloyd wrote: | | Telecaster wrote: | | KevinLloyd wrote: | | Telecaster wrote: | | KevinLloyd wrote: | | The main ? on this post has been "WWJD?" Of course, we live in a different day than he did. But I still hold to the fact that Jesus would've used ANYTHING SHORT OF SIN to reach the lost...secular music, movie clips, culturally hot topics, felt need issues, etc to communicate & engage the audience. |
I'll agree He would use anything Kevin, but would He have replaced the sacred parts of a worship service with worldly things? I say no. At the basis of everything He did was a call to repentance. He was brutally honest with those who knew the law and didn't have it in their hearts. They had taken the law and perverted it to become excuses for their actions and beliefs. Unfortunately, I feel your movement has done much the same. If you wanted to get real technical, Jesus even gave the idea of how to do praise and worship. On more than one occasion, before He spoke to the disciples using illustrations and such, it says they came together and sang hymns, or interpreted, praises unto God. Secular music has always been around, and I think it's important to note that when Christ led disciples in worship, he used what is referred to as hymns or what would be today our praise and worship. Substituting secular songs by artists who stand for everything but Christ can't lead people into anything but emotionalism, and emotionalism doesn't save. I've said my piece more than one time on this topic and have questions that have gone unanswered, so I'm done. |
First, thanks for being done.
Just like Jesus, the goal of everything that we do is repentance & changed lives. I don't know how/when you heard otherwise. We use anything short of sin to engage people w/ the goal of seeing their lives transformed. That simple.
In regards to the people who knew the law that Jesus was the most critical to. We see it from 2 different viewpoints. You see me as the Pharisee. I see people who come w/ thoughts like yours as Pharisees. Let's just say that that's where we're different. The only argument that I can have I guess is to say that the Pharisees were the type who saw all of the wrong in what Jesus did...in his methods. I have never told you that your methods are wrong...but that's all I've ever heard from you. |
And you continue to ignore my questions and call anyone who doesn't follow your rational Pharisees. I'm curious to know how we would be Pharisees, but considering your thankful I'm done, I don't expect any answer from you especially to a direct question. It seems you ignore and coward from them and put up a cliche post. You won't and can't quote scripture to denounce the claims myself and others have made. Instead you just talk about winning souls. Let the record stand as it is. Kevin refuses to answer Biblical questions and thinks that all those against him are Pharisees. He also would like for everyone of us who doesn't agree with him to be done. And you call us closeminded. I'm at least trying to have some dialogue from a scriptural point of view and try to understand, because so far for 8 pages, I've not seen any thing deemed understandable. So it is what it is. For your sake and your last post, maybe I'll just come "undone." I hope you realize you're calling some of the most respected and mission minded men in many denominations "Pharisees" simply because they don't agree with you. |
Dude, if I read correctly, you called me one in your previous post.
As far as the bible goes and me not having courage to answer direct questions. Here's my best answer...the bible tells me to "go out and complel them to come in." Frankly, I'm doing all that I can in my culture to compel people to come in. I design my church to reach the lost...I'm not going to apologize for that or feel like I have to defend myself for that. I'm doing what I can to answer our ?'s. Nothing I say seems to matter or is what you want to hear. All I know is this: I'm doing what GOD has called me to, not what you have called me to do or not do. I'm designing church for people who don't like church, who've been hurt by it, or who drive by churches every Sunday in order to go to something that is alot more engaging. I'm not saying that what I do is perfect...but it works. It's not watered down...it's truth. If you don't like the way that I do it...fine. I really don't care. You can word your arguments however you want to...I don't care. And, I'm not calling people who don't agree w/ me a PHarisee...I'm calling people pharisees who throw religion around and bible around as to why they are resistant to change or see things from another side. I don't care if you do things like I do or not...but it's the heart of a Pharisee to hate on what's different...I have not done that.
I just don't get why some (not all) of you guys hate on this style. Is it because so many new churches are starting and growing to the thousands in the first year or two? It seems like you would champion that. Who cares about the methods?
So, dude, you're off my radar. I'm better than this petty argument w/ you. Say what you want about me. I'm doing what God has called me to. |
You have little depth to any rebuttal. It's always the same thing. First, I didn't call you a Pharisee. I said the emergent ways seem like those ways that Jesus criticized. I never even mentioned the word Pharisee, so go back and read it again.
Second, you keep going back to Jesus saying to compel them. Well yea, he said that, but there is a right way and a wrong way, and to stand on the scripture alone as you have repeatedly done doesn't cut it. You have to take the whole Bible, that you say we're throwing around, and apply it, dude. You'll find in the Word that God never gave a commandment that He didn't give some direction on how to accomplish it. So that's where your "Pharisees" are coming against you with. You stand on that one scripture and refuse to give answers for the other scriptures that speak against some of your practices.
Thirdly, you're right, God did call you to win the lost at any cost. Guess what, He called me to do the same thing. And everyone else in the world. So while your calling is noble, it is no different than the rest of ours.
Fourthly, while you champion the emergent movement, the total number of Christians in this country is decreasing on a rapid scale. The total amount of church attendance is decreasing rapidly. And as you say you're designing church for those who dont' like church and have been hurt, the emergent style that is sometimes represented by ministers on TBN and others who preach prosperity and infiltrate their churches with entertainment rather than worship have done more to hurt people than any other movement. Empty promises of God being there always falls by the way side when the condition of those promises being that people come out from among the world is forsaken. In fact, the two fastest growing movements in America today are Islam and Mormonism. Neither use emergent like tactics. Both stand strictly for their beliefs and go strictly by their doctrine and "bibles." The fact that the churches today feel they must appear people friendly will never be found in the Word. God is God and He doesn't change. He doesn't excite people to come to Him. Rather He convicts them. He doesn't call people to Him and allow them to stay as they are and to remain influenced by their previous influences. He transforms minds, souls, and spirits into His very own and that becomes the voice of truth. You see, your grounds are shaky and non-existent. Your claims have no substance. It seems you've bought into someone's doctrine they've sold you. At the end of the day, you still dodge the questions and you still appear just as judgmental as you say we are.
Lastly, you're right. I'll never be on your radar. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/5/07 4:39 pm
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KevinLloyd |
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| whew |
Charlie Metz |
I tell you what, I would love to sit and listen to Telecaster preach a sermon. Some like it hot and some like it cold...most in the emergent movement like it warm. (I know...you will jump on this because I am "judging" you emergents). When you think it is ok to comform to the world to win the world, then I think it is cold.
Tell you what, if you and I had 30 days to fill up a stadium, I bet I could fill one up with more people. I would invite the 5 largest hit pop stars in the world and give away free beer. So, if I did that week in week out, I bet I could maintain and phenomenally growing group of people. Let me sprinkle it with a little Tony Robbins motivational speaker-ese, incorporate myself as a non profit charity, and call myself a church. Then, I would have the fastest growing, largest church in the world! Yippee me!
Here is the rub...numbers mean absolutely NOTHING! All the seeker/emergent churches today tout their ability to pack a house. The thing is, anyone can pack a house. The next question is are they saved? I would hypothesize that they have been innoculated. They think they are saved because you told them. There tends to be no depth of understanding of God or the power of God.
For those that think putting up a carnal, secular, world loving band to try and promote God that someone will be saved...I just dont get it. It is an oxymoron. Kevin, I think you mentioned you wouldnt serve beer at a church event. Why not? I am curious where you draw your line.
_________________
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matt. 7:13-14 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 706
3/5/07 5:07 pm
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| COGCharlie and Telecaster |
myinquringmind |
COGCharlie......
You speak a lot of hatred towards these ministries that you have NEVER spent anytime with (I assume). In my opinion, the problem with christianity dwindling in America has nothing to do with the emergent movement (anything that does things differently than you) or churches that are more traditional. It has more to do with ministers (like you) who do nothing but critisize other ministries. Why do you hate these ministries and their leaders. Don't say you don't hate them. Your words speak very loudly. You and telecaster have been nothing but rude to thise ministers and their ministries. Just because you choose to put you pants on with the left leg first doesnt mean because I choose to put mine on with the right leg first that either of us is doing it wrong. The point is we both end up with our pants on. Half of you on here critisizing using a few secular songs in a church service would not have even known it was secular if he hadnt mentioned it. Sometimes you people amaze me. I bet Kevin could have typed some of the lyrics to the songs he has used and said that Carman or DC Talk had the song on one of their CDs and you guys would think it was a great song to use. Just because a band is signed to a Christian Label doesnt make the gruop any more Christian than some Artist that are on a secular label but that seems to to be all you care about. You guys keep jumping the gun about using songs that are vulgar in church service. CANT YOU READ OR DO YOU JUST CHOOSE TO IGNORE that they have wrote countless times that they dont use those type of songs. I have been to a few church services that have used a very popular secular song at the time but with the lyrics changed. But you know what, now if I happen to hear that song played somewhere, all I can think about is the lyrics that they sang at church and what an awesome move of God we had that night. So according to what you believe, that movement wast anything and the lives that were touched were meaningless because secular music was used. I think is time that you realize that you are all on the same side. Trying to win souls for the kingdom. Instead of bashing each other embrace the fact that you involved in ministries that are trying to reach different people. Kevin is going to be able to reach people that would never step foot in your church and you are going to reach people that would never step foot in Kevins church. From reading Kevins post, I believe he understands this but I am not quite sure you do yet. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 100
3/5/07 5:32 pm
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| Re: whew |
Pastor Gary |
| COGCharlie wrote: | | Here is the rub...numbers mean absolutely NOTHING! |
Then why does the New Testament waste ink recording them?
John 6:10
And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 4:4
Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
And God himself said...
Romans 11:4
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Numbers don't matter?
_________________
I reserve the right to own my words and thoughts without edits. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3530
3/5/07 5:33 pm
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| Re: whew |
Charlie Metz |
| Pastor Gary wrote: | | COGCharlie wrote: | | Here is the rub...numbers mean absolutely NOTHING! |
Then why does the New Testament waste ink recording them?
John 6:10
And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 4:4
Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
And God himself said...
Romans 11:4
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Numbers don't matter? |
Thank you for the spank. Find somewhere in scripture where it says anything about the church today and the main reason for church is to have numbers of great magnitude. Why is it that the focus of modern churches today is to build large churches? Does a large church mean they are saved? No. Does it mean they can attract a crowd? Yes. So, Jesus fed the 5000 then He said you have to eat My flesh and drink My blood...all of them left. When challenged with the truth, they all left... Only His closest disciples stayed. So, in today's church movement we would have said, what can we do to keep them here? What program can we develop? We have a "backdoor" problem. Jesus just let them go because they refused to hear the truth. They were there for the free food. When challenged...when they heard the truth....they left. So, do you challenge them once they come? Do they all stay afterwards? If you keep the bulk, then you must be a better preacher/teacher than Jesus Himself.
_________________
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matt. 7:13-14 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 706
3/5/07 5:42 pm
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| Re: Come on now. We can do better than all this bickering. |
Layperson |
| Voice of many Waters wrote: | | Layperson wrote: | | Reality wrote: | | All I know is 70 people were baptized last year at the Creek. We have 400 adults meeting and studying the scriptures in LifeGroups. People are giving testimonies of their lives being turned around by the saving power of Jesus. Believers are growing deep in their faith and sewing seed into those who are new to the faith. That really sounds like a place God wouldn't approve of. |
That sounds great.
Would you share some of what you do? You may not be the one we are so critical of in this post. At least my criticism has been about people using punk rock groups (not Christian groups) that use sexual inferences and vulgar language in their songs. |
I think you all have missed the point about vulgar lyrics. I suggest CHANGING the lyrics to fit the occasion. I.E. My Youth Group did a Monkees song one time in service. The Song "I'm a believer". They changed to words and did a great job. The song has a very catchy tune and was written by one of America's premier songwriters. Neil Diamond.
So was that wrong? Them singing a secular song (That everybody knew) with new lyrics. I do not see the problem. You guys need to lighten up. What is the difference what song the words are the real message. As long as it lifts up the name of Jesus, then you should lift up the name as well.
Can't we all just try and understand each other? Just because it is wrong for you does not mean it is wrong for everybody.
Voice of Many Waters |
This is what I am trying to find out. Do all the people posting here in favor of secular music in church change the lyrics and put spiritual words to the music. If so, I may be willing to give them a pass (not that you care whether I do or not). And when you invite rock groups in, do you censor the lyrics? Many of the groups mentioned in the early part of this thread use vulgar lyrics. Ok, I say that those people should not be invited in the 1st place, but assume they are invited (to appeal to the youth) do you ask them to clean up their act? I would be especially interested in what Kevin has to say about this. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1747
3/5/07 5:51 pm
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| (Without Googling) Christian or Secular....... |
myinquringmind |
A court is in session, a verdict is in
No appeal on the docket today
Just my own sin
The walls are cold and pale
The cage made of steel
Screams fill the room
Alone I drop and kneel
Silence now the sound
My breath the only motion around
Demons cluttering around
My face showing no emotion
Shackled by my sentence
Expecting no return
Here there is no penance
My skin begins to burn
(And I said oh) So I held my head up high
Hiding hate that burns inside
Which only fuels their selfish pride
(And I said oh) We're all held captive
Out from the sun
A sun that shines on only some
We the meek are all in one
I hear a thunder in the distance
See a vision of a cross
I feel the pain that was given
On that sad day of loss
A lion roars in the darkness
Only he holds the key
A light to free me from my burden
And grant me life eternally
Should have been dead
On a Sunday morning
Banging my head
No time for mourning
Ain't got no time
(And I said oh) So I held my head up high
Hiding hate that burns inside
Which only fuels their selfish pride
(And I said oh) We're all held captive
Out from the sun
A sun that shines on only some
We the meek are all in one
[Guitar break]
I cry out to God
Seeking only his decision
Gabriel stands and confirms
I've created my own prison
I cry out to God
Seeking only his decision
Gabriel stands and confirms
I've created my own prison
(And I said oh) So I held my head up high
Hiding hate that burns inside
Which only fuels their selfish pride
(And I said oh) We're all held captive
Out from the sun
A sun that shines on only some
We the meek are all in one
(And I said oh) So I held my head up high
Hiding hate that burns inside
Which only fuels their selfish pride
(And I said oh) We're all held captive
Out from the sun
A sun that shines on only some
We the meek are all in one
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head
No time for mourning
Ain't got no time
Last edited by myinquringmind on 3/5/07 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 100
3/5/07 6:07 pm
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| (Without Googling) Christian or Secular |
myinquringmind |
We all wanna be loved, yeah
We all want just a little respect
We all wanna be loved
Tell me what's wrong with that
Oh, somebody tell me
A rainy Monday afternoon
There's a funk over the city
Everybody's movin' to a different tune
Some are weak and some are strong
And some are sittin' pretty
And then there's others who are barely hanging on
It's no easy situation
People living in their separate worlds
But one thing we got in common is
(chorus)
We all wanna be loved
We all want just a little respect
We all wanna be loved
Tell me what's wrong with that
I've never heard a dying soul
Wish that he had taken
More time on his portfolio
I swear I've never heard a mama say
Should've never had that baby
As a doctor holds her newborn on display
It's the heavenly prescription
A little bit will go a long, long way
Just put yourself in their position, don't...
(repeat chorus 2x)
[Ahhh yeah, now this is what I call a party]
[Party people everywhere]
[Look to my left, there go my boys]
[Hold up fellows, hold up]
[Wait, hold up fellows]
Faith and hope are worth a mention
But love is holding it's position
(repeat chorus)
Love is a thing that we all crave
Let's get it straight |
Friendly Face
Posts: 100
3/5/07 6:11 pm
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| Re: whew |
Pastor Gary |
| COGCharlie wrote: | | Does a large church mean they are saved? No. |
Of course not. And I don't pastor a large church... but logic alone tells us that if you have a 100 member church not all are saved, but if you had a 5,000 member church not all would be saved either --- but more than 100 would be!
| COGCharlie wrote: | | Does it mean they can attract a crowd? Yes. So, Jesus fed the 5000 then He said you have to eat My flesh and drink My blood...all of them left. When challenged with the truth, they all left... Only His closest disciples stayed. |
Are you suggesting Jesus was wrong for miraculously feeding a huge crowd? If I have an opportunity to address a huge crowd I will --- even if most choose not to hear and respond.
| COGCharlie wrote: | | So, do you challenge them once they come? |
Yes. Actually, I teach verse by verse through the Bible, and The Word challenges them.
| COGCharlie wrote: | | Do they all stay afterwards? |
Some. Not all.
| COGCharlie wrote: | | If you keep the bulk, then you must be a better preacher/teacher than Jesus Himself. |
My church has steadily and slowly grown for the past few years, but is by no measure large.
_________________
I reserve the right to own my words and thoughts without edits.
Last edited by Pastor Gary on 3/5/07 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3530
3/5/07 6:18 pm
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| Re: COGCharlie and Telecaster |
Telecaster |
| myinquringmind wrote: | COGCharlie......
You speak a lot of hatred towards these ministries that you have NEVER spent anytime with (I assume). In my opinion, the problem with christianity dwindling in America has nothing to do with the emergent movement (anything that does things differently than you) or churches that are more traditional. It has more to do with ministers (like you) who do nothing but critisize other ministries. Why do you hate these ministries and their leaders. Don't say you don't hate them. Your words speak very loudly. You and telecaster have been nothing but rude to thise ministers and their ministries. Just because you choose to put you pants on with the left leg first doesnt mean because I choose to put mine on with the right leg first that either of us is doing it wrong. The point is we both end up with our pants on. Half of you on here critisizing using a few secular songs in a church service would not have even known it was secular if he hadnt mentioned it. Sometimes you people amaze me. I bet Kevin could have typed some of the lyrics to the songs he has used and said that Carman or DC Talk had the song on one of their CDs and you guys would think it was a great song to use. Just because a band is signed to a Christian Label doesnt make the gruop any more Christian than some Artist that are on a secular label but that seems to to be all you care about. You guys keep jumping the gun about using songs that are vulgar in church service. CANT YOU READ OR DO YOU JUST CHOOSE TO IGNORE that they have wrote countless times that they dont use those type of songs. I have been to a few church services that have used a very popular secular song at the time but with the lyrics changed. But you know what, now if I happen to hear that song played somewhere, all I can think about is the lyrics that they sang at church and what an awesome move of God we had that night. So according to what you believe, that movement wast anything and the lives that were touched were meaningless because secular music was used. I think is time that you realize that you are all on the same side. Trying to win souls for the kingdom. Instead of bashing each other embrace the fact that you involved in ministries that are trying to reach different people. Kevin is going to be able to reach people that would never step foot in your church and you are going to reach people that would never step foot in Kevins church. From reading Kevins post, I believe he understands this but I am not quite sure you do yet. |
I'm glad you have an inquiring mind for you have much to learn. Giving scripture from the Word brother is hardly speaking in hatred. Secondly, I don't hate Kevin or any Emergent for that matter. No one's worth going to hell over. Thirdly, you couldn't be more wrong to assume that because ministers as myself and Charlie have standards against these practices that we are sheltered from the world and from information. I know full well that there are many bands signed to Christian labels that are hardly that, just like there are many preachers behind pulpits that are, well you get the idea.
Winning souls puts us on the same side correct. But the methodology of winning them seperates us. We win them for the purpose of discipling them, not giving them a place they feel comfortable and enjoy; not giving them a place where they can be entertained; not giving them a place where they can experience the same cultural garbage inside the church as they do outside. No one has to experience culture on the inside to know it's there. No one has to experience it to know how to deal with it.
Also, we can defnitely read, otherwise we probably couldn't be replying. The argument is not just the secular songs, but the bands in general. So what if Justin Timberlake does a song that a derived spiritual meaning can come from it. Any normal teen or young adult, or even adult today, will go an buy the album or download more of his songs and subject themselves to many of the dirty lyrics, attitude, and sinfulness promoted on the album. It's simply giving the devil an inch, and he'll take a mile. I can just hear the temptation now . . . "it's ok, Pastor (fill in the blank) had one of his songs played in church during worship. He can't be bad and your pastor is a man of God, so trust his judment." Don't say you can't agree that that kind of thing happens. I remember as a teenager trying to find every loop hole I could in my youth pastors sermons to continue in what I did, and low and behold, we all still know people, and possilby ourselves, still do it.
Also, if you would read the posts, you'll find that no secular labels have really been mentioned, so I have no idea where you're going with that.
As for meaningless experiences, time will tell. It's not my place to judge a person's intial experience with God, but I can tell you the Word says that we're drawn by the Holy Spirit, not by entertainment or emotions. They may have ran to the altar and cried for any number of reasons, but I can assure you, if the filth that the secular artist portrays in his/her music or lifestyle continues to be a voice in this convert or member's head, salvation won't last long. The Word says Christ transforms us, not plays on our emotions and leaves us. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/5/07 6:33 pm
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| Re: whew |
Telecaster |
| COGCharlie wrote: | | I tell you what, I would love to sit and listen to Telecaster preach a sermon. |
Thank you brother. You too. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/5/07 6:35 pm
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| Re: whew |
Telecaster |
| Pastor Gary wrote: | | COGCharlie wrote: | | Here is the rub...numbers mean absolutely NOTHING! |
Then why does the New Testament waste ink recording them?
John 6:10
And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 4:4
Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
And God himself said...
Romans 11:4
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Numbers don't matter? |
Come on Pastor Gary. Stay with us here. You know what COGCharlie meant. It's not how many you can pack into a place, but how many are saved and on their way to Heaven. You know that's what he meant, so let's not get on a tangent here.
Sure numbers matter if the numbers represent souls saved, not people merely in a pew. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/5/07 6:37 pm
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KevinLloyd |
I'll try to answer things directed towards me...
Would I change lyrics to secular songs?
I've never really come up on one that I would use that needed it. If we're going to use a song...it would be one that could stand alone w/o needing lyrics changed. We're not using anything that has any negative or vulgarity at all. In fact, it's like someone already said...some of these songs you can't tell if they are Christian or not.
Would I serve beer?
That's stupid. No.
Where do I draw the line?
Anything that distracts the people who I'm trying to attract or anything that would drive them to sin. Now, I know the argument that says just b/c you use a secular song in church that weak minded people are going to think it's ok...blah, blah, blah. Whatever. I've been doing this for awhile and that has never happened. No person that I know has ever been "backslidden" b/c of a secular song. In fact, one of the most powerful moments that I've ever experienced in church was easter a few years ago when my wife sang a song by Evanescence..."Bring Me To Life". It was incredible and so many lives were changed.
Is all we care about "packing the house" or Numbers?
No. The thing we care about is exposing the most people we can to the gospel. We care about doing things w/ creativity, excellence, Christ-centered, engaging, etc. Now, I can't help it if that draws people. We don't start a church and say, "Let's start a church so that we can run 2,000." That's stupid. We start it to impact lives. If that means we have a few..so be it. The funny thing is...most churches that flow in this vein end up growing. Not because of marketing or savvyness. Because they have created irresistible environments that people want to bring their friends to.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/5/07 6:48 pm
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Reality |
The people who do secular music don't sing songs that have bad lyrics. Are you people really that dumb. We will do a song that fits with the theme we are trying to get across.
Theme: God's Plan for sex Song: Easier Than Love Switchfoot
Theme: Chasing your dreams Song: Dream On Aerosmith
Theme: Death to Life in Christ Song Bring Me To Life Evanescence
Theme: Heaven Song: Where The Streets Have No Names U2
This is the idea, not to sing about all the PLEASE SELECT ANOTHER WORD you guys for some crazy reason think we are allowing in our churches. We are not as old school as many of you, but we do have some sense. We love God with everything we have in us. We love people with everything in us. We want to be with them in heaven one day. So if you only have negative things to say, go be with your four and no more, have church how you see fit and leave us alone. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 119
3/5/07 6:54 pm
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