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Marty uncovers reason for stagnation in COG growth (L)
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Post KevinLloyd
Hold on. I never said that if people who aren't in our target show up that we don't want them. What I said is that if people show up who want us to change who we are to meet their needs...we can't, we won't.

We have to have a target. I know that people outside that are going to come. Fine. But I have to design what I do around a certain demographic...and I can't change that.

Please don't think that I would ask someone to leave because they don't fit our "target". They are just going to have to know who we are and what our focus is...and be behind it.
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2/12/07 5:26 pm


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Post KEVIN Phil Hoover
KevinLloyd wrote:
Hold on. I never said that if people who aren't in our target show up that we don't want them. What I said is that if people show up who want us to change who we are to meet their needs...we can't, we won't.

We have to have a target. I know that people outside that are going to come. Fine. But I have to design what I do around a certain demographic...and I can't change that.

Please don't think that I would ask someone to leave because they don't fit our "target". They are just going to have to know who we are and what our focus is...and be behind it.


This is GOD's Church---God's sheep.

This isn't U S CELLULAR, or WAL-MART, or ESPN-Zone.

I'm praying that God will send you so many "out of the target audience" people that you will have to "adjust your focus."

These ARE GOD's PEOPLE...this is not a corporation, brother....

Don't treat it like one...
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Post KevinLloyd
Guys, I love people, they are all God's people, etc. I don't think that anything I've said takes away from that. However, everything that I have every read, every large & growing church that I have ever studied, and every progressive ministry conference that I have ever been to all have one thing in common: they have a target.

Call it being too "corporate" if you want to. That's just the way we are.

We will love EVERYONE...no matter of age, race, gender, etc. We will accept everyone. We will allow anyone to serve.

However, we will have a target audience. If you don't then you don't know how to plan, market, program, etc.

I read a great quote by Craig Groeschel from LIFECHURCH.TV that says, "Everyone ends up somewhere. Few people end up somewhere on purpose." I just want to end up somewhere on purpose...so I have a target.
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Post idontplaygolf
What will you do if a homosexual starts coming to your church? Friendly Face
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2/12/07 6:24 pm


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Post Re: KEVIN ...... My thoughts on TARGET (not the store ... MartyBaker79
[quote="Phil Hoover"]
KevinLloyd wrote:

I'm praying that God will send you so many "out of the target audience" people that you will have to "adjust your focus."



Phil,
You are a man of great insight, but please don't pray that prayer. Kevin needs to keep his focus just like the rest of us.

Here's the problem with the turn of this thread. When someone says, "Target" most of you get freaked out because you have older saints in your church. Don't freak out.

It's NOT about an age bracket; It's about a "MIND-SET". At the Creek, our oldest active couple is Bettie and Larry Hannon. They are 76 years old. They are as young as most of the people in the church .... not in physical years, but in progressive thinking.

On the other hand, you could have some very young 20 somethings that think like a very old couple.

FOCUS. Define a TARGET. Then, pray and prepare that all will come.

At the Creek, our older population is increasing. Are we adjusting our model or our services to satisfy what most people think old folks want .... of course not. If we did, we may lose them. Old folks come to the Creek because there is LIFE and there is hope in the ministry.

One older couple, Millard and Mildred Parker, come because in the back of their minds, they think that if their kids ever came back to church it would be at a place like the Creek.

Don't, please don't, put an AGE GROUP definition in your speeches about having a TARGET. Again, it's not about AGE, it's about MIND-SET.

Kevin, I would love to see 200 Senior Adults come to the EPIC. These senior adults have Relevant Magazine on their coffee table, Mark Driscoll and Kevin Lloyd on their Ipod; and huge wad of money ready to be donated at the GIVING KIOSK at Epic. Yes, there are some over 50 folks that have debit cards.

It's mind-set.

Enough for now.

Marty
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2/12/07 9:11 pm


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Post Thank You so Much Marty! Kermit the Frog
Thank you for your comments. They are exactly what I was thinking but was unable to communicate. We have Senior Adults at our church who love the way that we are doing ministry. We are a hybrid between traditional and progressive. It works for us. They have never asked me to change who I was, and I have never asked them to change. I have asked them to have an open mind when we do new things. I believe that if you truly love your people, they will be open to different ideas. The unfortunate thing is that there are some Pastors who beat the congregation into submitting to the Pastors will. New Member
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2/13/07 9:38 am


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Post soupy1
Jamie Noel wrote:
idontplaygolf wrote:
Yeah, you can pack a building, refuse to wear suits, let your church call you by your first name, all that stuff, and it's not wrong, but where is the power?




It is up to us as pastors to set the table and present the gospel with creativity and innovation, just like a fine restaurant. I want to offer some fine dining and create something that people want to come back to.



I dont want my church to be like a fine restaurant....Id rather it be like the Upper Room.
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4/5/07 6:24 pm


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Post Fine Dining COG TODAY
Power has nothing to do with wearing suits and allowing people to call you by their first name. Creating an atmosphere that is equivalent to fine dining ought to make everyone happy(emerging and old timers) because it is about giving God our best. The problem with some of us is that we are not making every effort to keep unity, we are looking for ways to divide.

It is possible to have power and be holy without wearing a tie. It is possible to shout and dance in the Holy Ghost in a pair of jeans. It is possible to have a growing church and wear a suit, not use power point, and call people in the congregation brother so-n-so and sister so-n-so.
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4/5/07 8:15 pm


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Post COG grew fastest when it was the wildest doyle
While working in Cleveland on the Forward In Faith staff, I became interested in growth patterns of the COG and other Pentecostal organizations.

Amazingly, the COG grew far faster in membership when our worship services were the most boistrous and kind of wild. It seems the more educated, organized and sedate we've become, the slower the organization is growing.

That's not meant to be a cheap shot at anyone. I too am far more educated, organized and probably sedate than I was back then. I too at times long for the unabandoned enthusiasm of our worship then but do I want to go back to it on a regular basis? Hmm.

When we were so outwardly joyful and physically demonstrative, did we run as many off as we gained? I think so, but the reason we won those who ultimately became part of us is because what we were doing something that reached down deep inside them and touched their soul.

Even if it's true, the SMARTER we get the SLOWER our organization grows, I don't want to go back to the time when I was less enlightened, less educated.

USING our brain doesn't have to cause a spiritural DRAIN.

Is there anything saying we can't be SMART and also DYNAMIC? Apostle Paul was one of the most educated men of his day and yet, he was powerfully used of God.

I think the greatest reason the COG is stagnated in growth (possibly in delcine - not sure - since headquarters doesn't share the growth numbers - if there was major growth you can be sure they'd share it), is because the COG has become incredible INWARDLY focused. Our organization isn't OUTWARDLY focused.


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4/6/07 11:04 am


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Post eagle1
Millions are going to Hell while some try to keep it small and sweet so that the spiritual ones can lead the service. Many people only attend small pentecostal churches because they are spiritually co dependent. They want people to gather around them to get their word for the day. They attempt to show how spiritual they are. It makes it so difficult to invite an unsaved person for fear that someone might try to cast something out of them or put something in them.

There is nothing more powerful in all the world than a move of God. But to many have a move of man and label it a move of God.

It is time that we realize that church is all about God and not us. It is about reaching the lost and having a mission to change a generation and not about getting our pentecostal fix for the week.
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Post COG decline and COG politics krisis
Okay, let's just throw this out there and see what happens.....

I believe Marty has named one of the major reasons why many of our churches are in decline. I would paraphrase it: We have started worshiping a culture (which we have created and believe is Pentecostalism) that promotes the "campmeeting crazies". By culture, I am referring to style of preaching, hyper-emotional music, and the strange utterances that seem "weird." The opposite is to seek a genuine encounter with the Most Holy God and let the expression of the encounter follow afterwards.

Now the next controversial question: Where are our denominational leaders in all of this? Are they promoting a culture that panders to the "campmeeting crazies"? Or are they seeking to bring the message of Pentecost over in a manner that is culturally relevant?

As the leadership goes, so goes the followers (or at least most of them).

Louis Morgan: I also agree that this calls for the denominations to allow for much flexibiltiy. Just how big is the tent of the COG?
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4/6/07 11:50 am


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Post KevinLloyd
There is a pastor, Chris Hodges, who leads one of the fastest growing churches in Alabama. Church of the Highlands in B'ham is a life-giving, spirit filled church that started about 6 or 7 years ago. They had a core of 30 people. Now they have around 6000. They are still in a high school auditorium.

Chris came out of Bethany World Prayer Center in Baton Rouge & New Life Church in Colorado. He is pentecostal and probably more charismatic than some. HOwever, he makes the statement that to reach our culture with the gospel that we can't do away with the presence or power of the Lord...but we have to eliminate the goofy and the weird. I like what he says...and it's obviously working.
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Post In repsonse to Marty's original point Zerub
Here’s my 2 cents worth.

1. In some churches, the latest fad of “worship” antics has led to an overall loss of “sanctuary”. There has been no place allowed for reflection and listening time for the ‘still small voice.’

2. There is also a loss of intimacy in a mega-church environment. It can be restored with the small group thing or cells, but it is still a problem that needs to be addressed.

2. People rarely ever hear the Word of God being read aloud any more, either from the Pastor or members or deacons. I want to hear and feel the Word being spoken into my life. The real Word needs to be presented, not just the interpretation of the Word. There is a real power in that reading.

3. There is no regular systematic confession prayer for sin and re commitment. Services sometimes end in some vague call at the end of the service that never quite gets there. It is important to be directly reminded of this atonement.

4. Where are the testimonies? The stories of great things He has done? I know—too dangerous. Not enough time…but ... that is what videotape and the controlled playback was invented for.)

5. Media abuse. I am totally in favor of media as a way to enhance the message but it also trivializes and sometimes takes away from the whole point when overused.

6. A need for the regular move of the prophetic.

7. There is no regular communion of the Lord’s supper. When it is held, it is in the “happy-meal- pop- top- style- cups” (I know this is for crowd expediency) and seems so haphazard and lacking in any reverence. Communion should happen every week. This is where the real power of Christ for healing and power is manifested.

As a fourth generation COG, I am hungry for a time of sanctuary and for the reverence of communion. I want to experience the God of the Universe in a room full of believers.

I say these things because many churches have gone back to just these kinds of formats. Yes, even in the Church of God. They are experiencing a wonderful revival in the way people are approaching worship and finding God. I have been to them and it is amazingly fresh and powerful.

What do you think?
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4/6/07 7:36 pm


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Post soupy1
I have been reading the posts on this topic and have a few observations that Id like to post. Mind you it probably wont read like some of the more "elequent" opinions but here goes....I have been a member of the COG for close to 40 years and I agree times have changed both in the pulpit and in the pew. I am offended by what some on here have termed the Campmeeting Crazies. I know of who you are describing and year in and year out they were there somewhere. An annointed man or woman could overcome these folks and move on with the service. I dont think this person or persons should be held accountable for their actions, some on here want that type worship to be banned.....how do you do this?

I remember longing for the campmeeting to begin as early as the month of April. There was just something glorious about it. I received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost in one of those "wild" meetings as some Pastor wrote here on the topic. The same Spirit that scared me to death when I first went to the COG drew me back into this wonderful worship. I think we should think before opining about giving someone a name like "Run the aisles Ronnie"

I think its ironic the same folks on here who want to quench the spirit and put titles on some Christians are the same folks who dont have the COG in the name of the church. I think more than anytime in our lives we need to trust the Lord and seek his will before we try and set parameters on just how the service should go.

Years ago I dont remember where I heard this but I will never forget it, A pastor once told me that as the years go by the church will take on the personality of their pastor. Good or bad if a pastor stays then his congregation will worship like him. If your concerned with how a church is look no further than the Rev.
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4/6/07 8:01 pm


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Post I am still praying Phil Hoover
for God to send the people, and that appropriate adjustments be made to the "focus."

Kevin is a wonderful man with a HUGE heart...and God will bless his labors, I'm sure.

But be sensitive to those whom God sends you...even if they are not the "right kind."
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Post David Boggs
for what it is worth...

in our church we have seen a tremendous growth in senior Adults. Our services are not the style they are used too and our music is very loud. All of these are barriers that most senior adults dislike, However, they are still coming.

The question is asked what do you do to please this growing population of our church? The answer is we keep doing church like the first day they walked in! That is what they fell in love with.

On occasion someone will ask (usually middle aged) why don't we do a traditional service, or mix our music up a little and have the old and New music for them. Well, although I want everyone to like our church, we cannot change from week to week just to hold on to certain people (this robs churches of their true Identity). The bottom line of our senior growth has been the fact that finally they are at a church where they can see their Children and Grand Children Serve god with great passion!

When people come to your church they need to come to buy into the Vision of the House not change it!

Just our own experience
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Post eagle1
http://actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?t=15162
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Post onetruegod
Weel, i've read a lot of these post, and all i can comment on is why we (my family) left the COG. This crazy weirdness thing described in this topic is one of the main reasons. We truly desire to experience the one true God and and to have our children experience that same thing. When church services became so distracting that this couldn't be done, we decided to leave. When we had people coming up to take the mic to share without prior permission granted from the pastor, when people would try to drum up the emotions, etc... When was it decided that "good church" was only if it was loud, people were walking the pews, people were running the isles, people were diving off stairs, people were screaming. When was it decided that this was the definition of anointing or the spirit moving? I'm am all for this if it is God. But don't tell me that sometimes God isn't quite. Sometimes we can be so busy trying to work something up that we can't possibly hear that still small voice. When we leave church thinking the spirit didn't move because there was no emotionalism, then something is wrong. It's late and I have more I want to share on a personal level for our decision to leave the COG, but I need to do it when I am refreshed. I hope my post isn't taken in the wrong way. This was a decision we made for our family. But it does seem that more and more people are making this decision. More later. God Bless. Friendly Face
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7/29/07 2:24 am


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Post Continuation from previous post... onetruegod
For several weeks (Well probably more like several months), my family and I have been attending a rather new church (approx 4 years old - it is a church plant from another larger church located about an hour from them). The church is running about 400-500 people with planning to build on land they own. This is absolutely amazing growth in this period of time. So I asked myself the question - what makes this church different - so different - that people see to just naturally gravitate towards it. I have been observing for several weeks. I have noticed so many things that are different from the denomination we came from. People come in and they honestly seem to be beeming happy. Not that painted on mask, but genuine happiness from deep inside. They greet each other without being told to. People seem anxious and delighted to serve in whatever role they are needed, whether it be nursery, toddlers, pre-shool, children, greeters, parking attendants, offering - where ever they are needed. The church is huge on small groups, or life groups as some churches call them. This is a huge force for building relationships within the church. And it works. It's not a chore and it doesn't wear you out to pull it all together - it simply just works. God is truly blessing it. The music isn't overbearing, didn't hurt the ears, but was very anointed and the people worshiped! There wasn't any worked up emotionalism. As I stated in my previous post - so many times people have come up to me and said "So, did you have good church?" They base whether or not it was good or not, whether or not the spirit moved by whether or not there were emotions involved. I think sometimes our emotions get us in trouble. Maybe God is trying to speak to us, but we might be so busy letting our fleshly emotions take over, that God can't speak to us. I'm not saying that God doesn't manifest himself through emotions. I understand and believe in the book of ACTS. But I think that fleshly emotionalism is way to prevalent in today's Pentecostal churches. Sometimes I think the pastors don't even have control over the services. Now I know some of you are probably saying now that GOD has control over the services. Yes he does and he sets his man, the pastor, in charge. And sometimes people oversteps those boundaries in fleshly emotionalism. What we have experienced over the past few months is nothing short of a miracle. It is a breath of fresh air. The pastor doesn't walk around with a holier than though attitude, when the mindset of "if someone speaks to me before I go up to preach they will affect the anointing". Yes, as crazy as it sounds we have experienced that. We have observed people showing up for church in anything from dresses, slacks, and polo's, to shorts, t-shirts, and flip flops. And you know what - God still moved. The presence of God was still there. No one was judging someone for wearing a dress, and no one was passing judgment to those wearing shorts. They simply don't care what you wear. Wear a 3 piece suit if you want. They don't care. They realize that people put more of an infasis on clothing and outward appearance than God does. God is more concerned with the inward work. We have observed a church that is not self absorbed, but rather truly reaches out to their community, not just talking it, but truly reaches out. But in the same sense, they believe in equipping and ministering to the needs of those in their flock. They do this through women's groups, women's trips, life groups, sunday school, promise keepers, youth groups, thriving children's ministries, etc... One thing God has taught me is that there is such a church that is cutting edge and relevant and yet holds firm to it's beliefs and traditions. The two can co-exist. I hate to see old mentality wrapped in a new package and presented as something fresh and new. We have to change our mentality. But to wrap the same message of God in a new package and deliver it is totally different. God never changes, but they way He chooses to minister and deliver does. God is a relevant God. Let me explain. God was relevant to the day and the times that the people of the bible lived in. Just read the bible and you will see how relevant He was. And God never changes. He is relevant to our day and time too. He loves us so much and doesn't want us living under the condemnation of man. Well, I should go for tonight. But I look forward to discussing this further with anyone who wishes. Friendly Face
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8/5/07 9:25 pm


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Post AMEN! onetruegod
[quote="KevinLloyd"]There is a pastor, Chris Hodges, who leads one of the fastest growing churches in Alabama. Church of the Highlands in B'ham is a life-giving, spirit filled church that started about 6 or 7 years ago. They had a core of 30 people. Now they have around 6000. They are still in a high school auditorium.

Chris came out of Bethany World Prayer Center in Baton Rouge & New Life Church in Colorado. He is pentecostal and probably more charismatic than some. HOwever, he makes the statement that to reach our culture with the gospel that we can't do away with the presence or power of the Lord...but we have to eliminate the goofy and the weird. I like what he says...and it's obviously working.[/quote]

I couldn't have set it better! AMEN!
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8/7/07 3:51 pm


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