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Marty uncovers reason for stagnation in COG growth (L)
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Post The Conclusion of the Whole Matter... Yo Dude
Last night, as I lay in bed pondering this discussion, it came to me that Marty and I are really saying the same thing:

WE WANT THE REAL THING.

Marty wants to weed out the weirdness that too often parades freely under the banner of Pentecost...and I want to weed out the things that have become "substitutes" for the real move of God (motion, emotion, weirdness, etc.).

I just want the real thing again.

Since those times when, at least in our memories, all was done in the flow of the Spirit, it seems we have had two "splits" in the movement. One split went beyond what the Holy Spirit was doing, adding all sorts of carnal bells and whistles and so forth, yet thinking it was the real thing. The other split sought to become more mainstream, and subtly suppressed divine manifestations that they thought, in their human minds, would not flow with "what they were trying to do" and might upset "those they were trying to reach."

Both are in error, I believe. And both probably arose in response to each other! That is, the weirdness crept in as an over-compensation against those who were retreating from classic Pentecost, and the more mainstream split arose as an over-compensation against certain things that were just "out there."

As some have pointed out on this thread, the TRUE move of God attracts the sinner, bringing conviction and salvation. Further, the TRUE move of God edifies the church in the only way this spiritual organism CAN be edified--by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I want the REAL THING. What I saw in old Campmeetings. What I've even seen on occasion in the current day. I don't want craziness or weirdness. And if it's the Holy Ghost, I don't think it will feel that way to us anyway!

I've seen people do some funny things under the anointing. I had to laugh. But it was a laugh of divine joy, and not of mockery.

And I've seen people do some weird things under the anointing. And I had to weep. But it was weeping in the Spirit, and not out of shame.

I want the REAL THING. And if the real thing show up, it will push aside the fakery and weirdness and carnal substitutions and human sophistications and "cutting-edge" ministry in order to do a GOD THING.
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1/30/07 10:38 am


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Post Re: The Conclusion of the Whole Matter... stp89
Yo Dude wrote:
Last night, as I lay in bed pondering this discussion, it came to me that Marty and I are really saying the same thing:


I don't really think you guys (or others here) are saying the same thing. Some are saying there should be no "weirdness" going on in the service, and by that they mean any manifestations outside of raising of the hands during singing or sitting on the pews/chairs.

I think we all do really want to see "the real thing" (as if any of us are qualified to make that judgment 100% of the time-sometimes even the most discerning Christian has to just shrug his shoulders or scratch his noggin' at what he sees).

I am anything but a fourth-generation camp-meeting goer. I am a converted Baptist. So my perspective is not borne out of some desire to see a 1950's COG camp-meeting revisited. My concern is that we might paint with a broad brush and consider any manifestation of the Spirit of God out of order.
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1/30/07 10:52 am


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Post Anything (that) goes..... spartanfan
I've always thought that anything that would be appropriate in the throne room in Heaven before Yaweh should be appropriate worship in our services and something that would be out of place there would be out of place as far as worship goes. If you think there are choo-choos going around the throne room, then you should have them at your church (with a periodic call to "jump in"). If you think people are shouting and jumping off balconies then go for it! There will be a lot of praise and falling on our faces in Heaven before His holiness, and even some casting of our crowns at His feet, so worship in Heaven will be demonstrative - but some of the stuff I've seen (okay, I confess- I've done) would now seem a little out of place in the throne room of God. Before the throne I will bow and worship in sincerity of heart. I probably won't do my version of the "funky chicken". Maybe the "sprinkler" but not the ho-down clog (unless the music is in cut-time). Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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1/30/07 12:57 pm


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Post There's a way to know.. spartanfan
There's a way to know someones true feelings in this area and that is how they answer the question, "Will there be fiddles in Heaven?" Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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1/30/07 1:00 pm


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Post idontplaygolf
I don't think it's wrong to not wear a suit or have a coffee shop in your church. I don't usually wear suits to church, and I'm looking into starting a cafe for the youth ministry. I was describing the overall attitude of what some people want church to become.

Phil, you said that God is using a new brushstroke now, speaking the language of the people. My Bible tells me that in the last days "sons and daughters shall prophesy, old men will see visions, young men will dream dreams." My Bible also tells me that "the glory of the latter house shall be greater than the glory of the former house." Are you a cessationist?

When does saving face become more important than God making us look foolish at times. Remember when David danced before the Lord with all of His might. Was that neat and proper for a king. God help us when the day comes that we are too arrogant to get a little messy for Jesus.
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1/30/07 6:50 pm


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Post philunderwood
Quote:
Phil, you said that God is using a new brushstroke now, speaking the language of the people. My Bible tells me that in the last days "sons and daughters shall prophesy, old men will see visions, young men will dream dreams." My Bible also tells me that "the glory of the latter house shall be greater than the glory of the former house." Are you a cessationist?


no, not in any way. i hoped i was pretty explanatory. sorry i failed to communicate that correctly. to refer to your reference of peter quoting joel, that seemed to them to be the entrance to the last days. we have had that and have seen that.

i think my difference is in how it is manifested. we have culturally 'how' that happens. earlier tonight i was having a great conversation with a methodist leader, jay voorhees(l) and told him of my pentecostal connections. being emergent and being pentecostal is a wonderful place to be. i really think God is leading me to write about how the Holy Spirit manifestation is needed in this age and how we can de-classify it to be 'of God' and 'in the people' concurrently.

afterward, i had the same shell of a conversation with tony jones(l), the leader of emergent-u.s(l). i think the emergent church is prime for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. sitting at a table earlier with a presbyterian pastor from seattle, i was energized to hear how the Holy Spirit is working within their community of faith exposing grace and the Jesus was to people of many faith traditions. God is alive and at work. is it prophetic? yes! is it the work of dreams? yes, again. is it the culturally understood manifestation of southern pentecostalism? no.

what bothers me about this debate is that if it is NOT like 1960s campmeeting then it is deemed not God. nothing could be further from the truth.
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1/30/07 9:01 pm


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Post fire-starter
Louis Morgan wrote:
I'm not saying yea or nay to this because I have strong feelings for both perspectives (if that is possible). I long for a genuine move of God, and if that is running up and down the aisles, then that is what I want to see. But, I'm tired of seeing services operate according to a "formula" and going through motions when it is seems out of place. Sometimes I feel as if we are trying to replicate a past move of God in some of our worship. There are times when I've wondered if God is still operating in that manner, but I've decided there is room for all of the types of worship b/c people are different. Some people like the guitars, nasal twang, and beehives. Others like the orchestra, liturgy, and dressing up. Some prefer to worship quietly while others enjoy running the backs of pews. But neither are less spiritual or Spirit-filled. It is all about style preferences.

That is why I believe we need to embrace diversity in the COG and not try to label some churches as hot/cold or liberal/conservative. Individuals can be aligned with the Word and still have different preferences about styles of worship, faith, and practice.

However, while reading this I couldn't help but wonder... what was the worship like for those on the Day of Pentecost? I wonder if they quaked, jerked, and rolled on the floor? I'm not making fun here, but asking a real heart-felt question.


They were on the ground doing something, the Bible says Peter had to stand up to speak.
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1/30/07 9:16 pm


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Post TheoloJohn
philunderwood wrote:

what bothers me about this debate is that if it is NOT like 1960s campmeeting then it is deemed not God. nothing could be further from the truth.


It seems to me that in the minds of "emergent" folks, only they are on the cutting edge of what God is doing today. The sword of pride and prejudice is two-edged, but somehow the emergents appear to have a spirit of elitism about them. The very name "emergent" implies that their movement is the latest and greatest thing to come forth in the spirit realm somehow.

Would 'emergent' guys acknowledge that God doesn't have to work only in their "hip" culture?
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1/30/07 9:20 pm


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Post vintagefaith77
theolojohn, I'm sure there are those "emerging" types who have a superior attitude, but not all of them. I think most are genuine, sincere followers of Christ who are seeing their generation being left by the wayside because the modern church just doesn't care or doesn't know how to reach them. And instead of watching it happen, they/we have decided to do something about it. When Martin Luther decided to reform, I"m sure alot of people thought he had a "superior" attitude, but history has proved that he was right and his motives were pure. Now, I'm not comparing any emerging leaders to Martin Luther, but I DO think that another reformation is on the horizon. A reformation of authentic Christianity that lives out the words of Jesus and ABSOLUTELY rejects the hype/flash and materialism that has pervaded the American church. Acts Enthusiast
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1/31/07 1:50 am


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Post philunderwood
Quote:
It seems to me that in the minds of "emergent" folks, only they are on the cutting edge of what God is doing today.


i agree with vintage here... i think emergents, especially among pentecostal circles, are just trying to get their due and be accepted in the conversation. we are dissed, made fun of and ridiculed way beyond what is understandable.

take, for instance, the invitation to our monthly meeting that i posted a few days ago. the remarks made by those not interested were just downright derisive toward the movement.

then, on top of that, from time to time, there will be obviously bizarre posts about emergent dogs, emergent this or emergent that.

we are deemed as lost. i had one person private message me and say that they would not even have a cup of coffee with me because i associated with sinners. here is the message:

Quote:
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

You are guilty in my book Phil - by association.


and then, a follow-up:
Quote:
philunderwood wrote:
that is a stretch... reminds of when the pharisees called Jesus a wine-bibber and a glutton. i guess he was guilty by association as well. what did they call him? a friend of sinners.


Not a stretch at all - you have proudly confessed your sin of supporting those who support and affirm homosexuality. Jesus never blatantly supported sin and you did/do - it's simple.


by far, we are not the ones claiming superiority here. if anything, we are pummeled and treated 'less than' among these brothers and sisters that predominate this board. you do not see us posting derisive remarks about the HS conference or calling attention to perry stone's wardrobe or dr mcguires hair. this is ridiculous.
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1/31/07 9:24 am


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Post wahoo
I certainly don't think the emergents on this board are treated "less than" as Phil claims. Emergent threads get more input than about anything else posted. I understand that many of those posts are negative but I don't see them as any more negative than the posts the emergents make toward the old-line guys.

I find myself somewhere between the emergents and the classic Pentecostals. That's a weird place sometimes because both groups seem to post with a attitude of superiority and leave very little room for any one else to be doing it right in the Kingdom.

Seems like a great deal of time is expended defending positions when it is obvious that positions on this board are not going to change.
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1/31/07 9:44 am


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Post broncofan
philunderwood wrote:
Quote:
It seems to me that in the minds of "emergent" folks, only they are on the cutting edge of what God is doing today.


i agree with vintage here... i think emergents, especially among pentecostal circles, are just trying to get their due and be accepted in the conversation. we are dissed, made fun of and ridiculed way beyond what is understandable.

take, for instance, the invitation to our monthly meeting that i posted a few days ago. the remarks made by those not interested were just downright derisive toward the movement.

then, on top of that, from time to time, there will be obviously bizarre posts about emergent dogs, emergent this or emergent that.

we are deemed as lost. i had one person private message me and say that they would not even have a cup of coffee with me because i associated with sinners. here is the message:

Quote:
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

You are guilty in my book Phil - by association.


and then, a follow-up:
Quote:
philunderwood wrote:
that is a stretch... reminds of when the pharisees called Jesus a wine-bibber and a glutton. i guess he was guilty by association as well. what did they call him? a friend of sinners.


Not a stretch at all - you have proudly confessed your sin of supporting those who support and affirm homosexuality. Jesus never blatantly supported sin and you did/do - it's simple.


by far, we are not the ones claiming superiority here. if anything, we are pummeled and treated 'less than' among these brothers and sisters that predominate this board. you do not see us posting derisive remarks about the HS conference or calling attention to perry stone's wardrobe or dr mcguires hair. this is ridiculous.



I agree. Sounds to me like the person would not have sat down and eat with Jesus either because he met with Sinners. When Jesus was upset wasn't it directed toward the "religious" people? WWJD. I don't think he would have drunk, but I could definitely see the possibility that he would minister to the drunkard.
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1/31/07 10:43 am


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Post reasons why cog doesn't grow... KevinLloyd
i'm going to add to what marty has said about the denomination not growing. first off, he's right...the whole pentecostal thing...we can come across as very weird! i think that there are some other reasons & issues going on too.

as an emerging leader who is still in his twenties (barely!), i see some other things. i feel like people who have a strong leadership gift and who are a part of the emerging generation need several things to be able to thrive as leaders:
1. FREEDOM. we need to know that we can challenge the process and not be "black-balled" or talked about after the meeting. good grief, the reason that this forum even exists is so that some of us can express our opinions and challenge the process without anyone knowing who we are. (which by the way is lame...if you want a voice, you need a backbone to go with it! use your real name!)

2. CHALLENGE. if we're going to lead this generation, we need to be ahead of the curve. why are we still listening to old school voices from 20 years ago as an authority on relevance, change, or leadership. bottom line is that pioneering change is different than it was when Mt. Paran was king. let's listen to people who are actually growing and doing something. who cares if they're baptist. where is andy stanley, bill hybels, or perry noble at the general assembly? why do we have more names of people that nobody knows sitting on the stage saying nothing every year than we do one compelling thinker saying something that might make us mad enough to change how we think? please, for the sake of every young, passionate leader who has not yet left the denomination for greener pastures...give us something to challenge us!

3. ACCOUNTABILITY. i don't mean a once a year slap on the back. i want & need people who have been down the road of leadership who have permission to look into my life and ask probing questions about how i spend my time, my strategy of ministry, what my family time is like, etc. as a young leader...i have alot of passion and ideas...but what i don't have enough of are people who call me on the carpet about certain things. i need to learn more about sticking to my ministry plan, i need help with that. why don't we have that? are we so concerned about image that we just refuse to be honest? please, set up some group of young guys w/ seasoned guys and let us be in a caring mentor relationship. budget money to make things like this happen.

so there you go. i agree w/ marty (i actually used to work for him!)...but i think there are more reasons as to why the cog doesn't grow and actually declines.
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2/12/07 2:59 pm


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Post Kevin a quick question for you Kermit the Frog
While I agree with you on most of the things that you said, I have a quick question for you? What if at your new church all of a sudden 200 Senior adults showed up at your church? I am sure that is not your specific target audience, but suppose it happened. What if God told them that you were to be their shepherd? How would you relate to them when they would rather hear TL Lowry than Andy Stanley? I know that you are intelligent, so I value your opinion. New Member
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2/12/07 4:18 pm


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Post KevinLloyd
Well, that's a great question.

First off...that would scare me to death if 200 senior adults showed up! Because, you're right they are not my target. My target are 18-45 year old men. You asked what if "God told me to be their pastor?" Well, he hasn't yet...so I don't feel like I can answer that fairly. If God talks, everything else is out the window.

Now, the way that I would handle them is the same way that I would handle anyone else who showed up. I would be real honest about the way that we do church. I would basically give them my spill that I will give to all of our "newcomers". Vision/Values/Strategy/Practices. More than likely during that process they would either love us and want to be a part or they would leave.

Saying this is easier than doing it...but I would rather help them find a church that is right for them where they can make a difference than my just try to keep them happy. If they come here and want to hear TL Lowrey...they're out of luck! I'm nothing like him!

I love senior adults...my parents are rapidly becoming them! So if they come here and love us and support us, then they're welcome. But if they come here and expect us to change to accommodate them...they're wrong. I don't care how old or young someone is...we are who we are. We are unapologetically geared to reach a specific demographic. That we can't augment.

Hope that answers some of your question.
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Post Wellda
KevinLloyd wrote:
Well, that's a great question.

First off...that would scare me to death if 200 senior adults showed up! Because, you're right they are not my target. My target are 18-45 year old men. You asked what if "God told me to be their pastor?" Well, he hasn't yet...so I don't feel like I can answer that fairly. If God talks, everything else is out the window.

Now, the way that I would handle them is the same way that I would handle anyone else who showed up. I would be real honest about the way that we do church. I would basically give them my spill that I will give to all of our "newcomers". Vision/Values/Strategy/Practices. More than likely during that process they would either love us and want to be a part or they would leave.

Saying this is easier than doing it...but I would rather help them find a church that is right for them where they can make a difference than my just try to keep them happy. If they come here and want to hear TL Lowrey...they're out of luck! I'm nothing like him!

I love senior adults...my parents are rapidly becoming them! So if they come here and love us and support us, then they're welcome. But if they come here and expect us to change to accommodate them...they're wrong. I don't care how old or young someone is...we are who we are. We are unapologetically geared to reach a specific demographic. That we can't augment.

Hope that answers some of your question.


Change or die is the battle cry of some in the COG.

What would you say to someone who came to your church with that message?
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2/12/07 4:54 pm


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Post Sadly kevin, Phil Hoover
KevinLloyd wrote:
Well, that's a great question.

First off...that would scare me to death if 200 senior adults showed up! Because, you're right they are not my target. My target are 18-45 year old men. You asked what if "God told me to be their pastor?" Well, he hasn't yet...so I don't feel like I can answer that fairly. If God talks, everything else is out the window.

Now, the way that I would handle them is the same way that I would handle anyone else who showed up. I would be real honest about the way that we do church. I would basically give them my spill that I will give to all of our "newcomers". Vision/Values/Strategy/Practices. More than likely during that process they would either love us and want to be a part or they would leave.

Saying this is easier than doing it...but I would rather help them find a church that is right for them where they can make a difference than my just try to keep them happy. If they come here and want to hear TL Lowrey...they're out of luck! I'm nothing like him!

I love senior adults...my parents are rapidly becoming them! So if they come here and love us and support us, then they're welcome. But if they come here and expect us to change to accommodate them...they're wrong. I don't care how old or young someone is...we are who we are. We are unapologetically geared to reach a specific demographic. That we can't augment.

Hope that answers some of your question.


It sounds like the "whosoever will" that Jesus uttered isn't the same for your local church, and that saddens me.

Don't be surprised when GOD sends people who are not in your "targeted audience."

I'm praying that HE will send you many, many of those....
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Post Are you adaptable? Kermit the Frog
okay here goes, I believe that sometimes you have to adapt to who God sends you. At one time we started what was supposed to be a community youth outreach service. Our attendance was growing but the reality was that instead of youth showing up, it was children. What did we do- we adapted. Sometimes our best laid out plans do change. I believe in being intentional in your ministry, but in a traditional church you must be intentional to each and every department or age group. Most guys do not have the benefit to only targeting one age group. Some are called to a traditional church, some are called to plant new works. I would hope that if those people chose you to be their shepherd, regardless of their age, you would be their shepherd and not help them find some other home just because they were not in your target audience. New Member
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Post KevinLloyd
If someone came to my church w/ the message "change or die"?

I would say they are right.
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Post Kermit the Frog
Sorry I didn't communicate that properly. My point, which I totally failed to make was this; say they are good people that love you for you, but as a pastor could you be relevant to them if they were Seniors? I am sure that you have a plan at your new church, but how will your plan evolve as your congregation grows older? I know that is very broad, but I am interested in your comments. New Member
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2/12/07 5:20 pm


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