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What's your view on the rapture?
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Which way do you see it?
1. Pre-Trib
58%
 58%  [ 28 ]
2. Mid-Trib
4%
 4%  [ 2 ]
3. Post-Trib
12%
 12%  [ 6 ]
4. Who cares? I just want to be ready.
25%
 25%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 48

Message Author
Post What's your view on the rapture? DHDRabbi
What about it?

Last edited by DHDRabbi on 1/19/07 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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1/17/07 10:28 pm


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Post Thanks Rab sheepdogandy
My vote is cast.

And recorded in Heaven. Cool
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1/17/07 10:32 pm


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Post jryanh10
I believe pre-trib, but defnitely not just because that was what I was taught all growing up. I've studied the Bible and found different scriptures that to me suggest the pre-trib. On the same hand, I've read ones that can go a different direction, but overall I'm sticking with pre-trib. Friendly Face
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1/17/07 10:33 pm


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Post Re: What's your view on the rapture? Memory03
from the air I hope...
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1/17/07 10:36 pm


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Post Poimen
I lean pre-trib -- especially when consulting/comparing with the Jewish marriage customs of the time.

Can see room for pre-wrath should pre-trib be wrong -- that is that the church will be raptured prior to the outpouring of God's wrath at the end of the 70th week.

Generally I like to just lump the rapture under a generic over arching "pre-wrath" heading and leave it to the individual to decide their specific pre, mid, or specific pre-wrath view, etc."
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1/17/07 10:42 pm


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Post Re: What's your view on the rapture? Brenda
Memory03 wrote:
from the air I hope...

Men, you know how to stay outta trouble don't ya? Laughing

I'm with you Bro.
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1/17/07 11:17 pm


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Post vintagefaith77
does anyone know what the pioneers of the COG believed about this? Obviously, they weren't 100% sure about pre-trib because they would have probably wrote that into the Declaration of Faith. Acts Enthusiast
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1/17/07 11:42 pm


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Post The PH Bullet
vintagefaith77 wrote:
does anyone know what the pioneers of the COG believed about this? Obviously, they weren't 100% sure about pre-trib because they would have probably wrote that into the Declaration of Faith.


sure they would have. It was so new at the time it didn't really fit onto the radar screen of *any* denomination. The Pre-Trib rapture as we know it is a twentieth century thing. It picked up steam with CI Scofield (dispensationalism) around 1909, which would have put it just about the time the CoG guys were hammering out doctrine.



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1/18/07 7:26 am


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Post Pre Trib GODROCKS
I chose Pre Trib for this reason: Now keep in mind I am not the most schooled person in the bible. I always thought the Tribulation was suppose to be when all the bad stuff happened like the be-headings if you don't side with the anti-Christ, and taking the mark of the beast, and when all scripture is suppose to be full filled when it talks about the opening of the scrolls where the plagues and stuff happen. My thinking is if I am saved and am going to heaven then why would God make me stay here to suffer through all that. If I have to stay here and suffer anyway then I could do what i wanted and get saved later. That may not make any sense but it does in my head Very Happy Cool Just my thoughts. Friendly Face
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1/18/07 10:23 am


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Post Re: Pre Trib vintagefaith77
GODROCKS wrote:
I chose Pre Trib for this reason: Now keep in mind I am not the most schooled person in the bible. I always thought the Tribulation was suppose to be when all the bad stuff happened like the be-headings if you don't side with the anti-Christ, and taking the mark of the beast, and when all scripture is suppose to be full filled when it talks about the opening of the scrolls where the plagues and stuff happen. My thinking is if I am saved and am going to heaven then why would God make me stay here to suffer through all that. If I have to stay here and suffer anyway then I could do what i wanted and get saved later. That may not make any sense but it does in my head Very Happy Cool Just my thoughts.


Godrocks, the critics would respond to you by saying that Christians throughout history have always suffered persecution, so why should American Christians be any different. There are Christians right now in China, Sudan and other places that are suffering unimaginable torture, rapes and murders because they name the name of Christ. So, logic would say that American Christians are being extremely pampered and selfish when we say "why would God allow us to go through that" when there are Christians going through that at this very moment. The only difference is that during the Tribulation period, the wrath and torture will be at the hands of God. So, I guess the post-tribbers believe that Christians will either suffer like the rest of the world or we will have some invisible force field around us that will protect us.
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1/18/07 10:28 am


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I want to make it clear that I have no quarrel with what is actually the majority of my brothers and sister in our circles who insist on a pre-trib rapture. One of my whole points is that eschatology is not a formula, and it cannot be cut and dried for *any* detailed system. You can get just as adamant and dogmatic over a post trib position as you can a pre trib, and I don't think we have warrant from scripture for either.

I grew up on the pre-trib rapture and I was aghast when I first heard of preachers and churches that taught anything but. In our fundamental Baptist circles it was pretty much strongly implied that such weren't even saved...or at least they had major problems. Later on when I began doing quite a bit of study-I found that the pre-tribulational, secret rapture, two-stage second coming is far and away the minority viewpoint of all of church history. It didn't even hit the stage till the nineteenth century and only gained widespread acceptance well into the twentieth.

I also realized that Dispensationalism is totally bankrupt as a system. Even the major dispy seminaries have modified their positions. Dispensationalism is cessationist and cannot be reconciled with the modern day operation of charismata.

Also if you look at the sum total of church history it becomes almost absurd to assume that Christians will be snatched out before any trouble comes their way.

I think one of the saddest things I've heard in this area was the other day a Baptist pastor on another board was very upset and said he and his wife had been grappling with the question-what if he and his wife were raptured and his kids were left behind (they're something like four and ten) to fend for themselves. I've heard other people who get very worried about their pets.

That question grieved me...how could anyone believe something so non-sensical-that a Holy God who saved a couple, called them into the ministry and gave them two children would snatch them away to let a four year old and a ten year old face the earth under the wrath of God-alone?

You have to face the pro-life issues too. If a woman is unsaved and carrying (let's make it convenient)...a nine month fetus that is due anytime...is the baby snatched out of her womb, taken in the rapture and she is left with no baby to face the Antichrist? It sounds absurd, but it wont do to back away from it and say "God will work it out." You have a system, remember? It's precise and it's all cut and dry.

You can't get around these questions. The cut and dried formulas should be strictly and consistently applied. Of course, most people will give them a pass...with the "age of accountability" or something else. But what about that fetus? It's a life isn't it? How is it going to make it in the rapture, and why would it be treated differently than any other kid?

What about kids who are innocent babies of unsaved parents? According to the Rapture Theory, the Holy Spirit will suddenly be whisked away from the earth. No one will ever be saved without the Holy Spirit drawing them to Christ. Such a kid would be damned to hell with never a chance to see salvation.

once again, I'm not truly trying to change anyone's mind here, and I don't think I could really. I'm just asking the questions. Apply the formulas consistently and see where it takes you. Look at yourself in light of the sum total of church history and ask yourself-why do you think this particular generation is convinced that they will never have to suffer for the Name of Christ beyond not getting an invitation to join the country club possibly? If you *do* get that blessing then the responsibility we will carry to Heaven will be absolutely overwhelming. I would have a hard time facing those Christians who were eaten by lions in the Coliseum or burned as human torches by Nero.

I don't want persecution any more than you do and I thank God for His protection-but if it should come it will be an honor to be counted worthy.
If Jesus comes today, I have a lot to answer for because I had the advantage over 99.9% of Christians who ever walked the face of this planet.

just some thoughts...


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1/18/07 10:36 am


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Post Pre-wrath ( link) nugeme
I am pre-wrath - it's the only thing I see in Scripture..and the only thing I see in history. Ask Chinese Christians, and the Christians of Holland ( including Corrie Ten Boom http://endtimepilgrim.org/corrie.htm ) if they think the church can suffer under an evil ruler. I think Daniel plainly told us we would be strong and do exploits during the time of the ant-christ. I do not fear seeing the anti-christ - I know Whom I believe! I do believe the Word is clear that the church is not appointed unto the wrath of God. I refer you to my favorite scholar on the issue - Dr. Marvin Rosenthal. Acts-celerater
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1/18/07 10:57 am


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Post Re: Pre-wrath ( link) The PH Bullet
nugeme wrote:
I am pre-wrath - it's the only thing I see in Scripture..and the only thing I see in history. Ask Chinese Christians, and the Christians of Holland ( including Corrie Ten Boom http://endtimepilgrim.org/corrie.htm ) if they think the church can suffer under an evil ruler. I think Daniel plainly told us we would be strong and do exploits during the time of the ant-christ. I do not fear seeing the anti-christ - I know Whom I believe! I do believe the Word is clear that the church is not appointed unto the wrath of God. I refer you to my favorite scholar on the issue - Dr. Marvin Rosenthal.


I can see that, and I've read Marv Rosenthal. There's another scholar named Ladd who wrote extensively on mid-trib and I think he has similar arguments to Rosenthal.

That reconciles well with what Troy said. Yes, I have to grapple with the whole thing of God's wrath. Right now evil men work in an evil world and God is sometimes silent as His purposes work out. Yet there is clearly a time when God's own wrath will be unleashed on this earth, and His children are not appointed to wrath. How He will protect us from it is up to Him. It could be a "harpazo" snatch or it could be a supernatural protection, Troy's "force field" he spoke of Wink .

But, consider also: God's wrath...all the bowls etc could be unleashed in an incredibly short period of time-a matter of days if he so chooses. The times that we ascribe are not cut and dried. So in a sense a pre-wrath rapture could be for practical purposes indistinguishable from a post-trib.

And nowhere can I account for what we're experiencing right now in the American church-we are absolutely insulated from persecution and we even have a billion dollar Christian economy going. At the same time martyrdom is at an all-time high-greater than it was in the days of Nero, Domitian and the others. What's God doing with that? I don't know other than we are experiecing supernatural favor for some reason.

but, some would make the argument that we could right now be at the mid point of the tribulation. I don't dismiss, nor endorse that thought. There is a case that can be made.

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1/18/07 11:55 am


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Peter Zefo wrote:
Quote:
I think Daniel plainly told us we would be strong and do exploits during the time of the ant-christ.


Can we please stop with the "plainly tells us..." and "clearly says..." phrases? IT IS NOT CLEAR AT ALL! Anyone who says different is either making money or just plain foolish. And it is probably supposed to be that way. Quit reading Revelation through the lens of Daniel. Let it speak on its own. The Apocalyspe has zero direct quotes from OT scripture. When it echoes the OT it does so for its own purpose...not to use it as its own proof-text.



Peter I do owe you one, but you earned it flat-out. Well said! Wink

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1/18/07 11:58 am


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Post Peter Zefro The strict Constructionis
Peter, you said:

Quote:
Quit reading Revelation through the lens of Daniel. Let it speak on its own. The Apocalypse has zero direct quotes from OT scripture. When it echoes the OT it does so for its own purpose...not to use it as its own proof-text.


HUH???

Why then did Jesus use Daniel as His text while teaching His disciples about the end times in Matthew 24?

Quote:
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, SPOKEN BY DANIEL the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matthew 24:15
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1/18/07 12:15 pm


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Post Dear Peter nugeme
Perhaps you don't read and comprehend well.... from Daniel 11 - it PLAINLY says. "And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.". What's not "plain" about that? Clear as a bell to me. Acts-celerater
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1/18/07 12:48 pm


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Post TheoloJohn
I tend towards the pre-wrath theory. I have very little confidence in the pretrib theory any more. It's supported entirely by inference, especially the inference made from the idea of imminence. But the fact is, all the theories (except perhaps posttrib) could fit in with the idea of imminence.
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1/18/07 3:11 pm


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Post There is no Mid-Trib... Yo Dude
Because no matter when the Lord returns--the first month, the third year, or the fifth year--that will be the END of the tribulation. And so we could rightfully call it "post-trib." Ha! Acts-dicted
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1/18/07 4:05 pm


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Post end of the tribulation? nugeme
The tribulation has two components - the wrath of the anti-christ and the wrath of God. Acts-celerater
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1/18/07 5:08 pm


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Post To answer the question with a question: John T. Johnson
What difference does the timing of the Rapture make to those who die in their sin and go into eternity without Christ?

Why invest our time--a finite and very limited resource--to reach humanity for Christ by spending it in something of such little value to the millions who will die yearly in their sin?
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1/18/07 5:13 pm


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