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 Too much Greek? |
Da Sheik |
Yesterday I had the privilege of being present at the installation of a new pastor on our district. He is a great young man with a wonderful spirit. His new congregation seems so excited to have him and I'm happy for him. I wish him nothing but the best. I found the service somewhat strange however.
He preached from the KJV (I assume that's his preference and that's ok!) but he spent half of the time explaining what the Olde English meant in modern terms. Furthermore, he referred to about a dozen Greek words during the sermon. Obviously the autographs were written in Hebrew and Greek and I can appreciate that. But I found him falling into exegetical fallacies that are common with those who only have a cursory knowledge of Hebrew/Greek.
So I wonder - how much Greek is too much ? I know he wanted to put his best foot forward and the sermon was good overall. I just felt it was overkill. The congregation is happy and that's all that matters. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1862
12/7/15 9:37 am
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diakoneo |
Ah Strong's Concordance.
ah 1 ah 2 ah 3
Ah 3 greek words  |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
12/7/15 9:53 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| I think the question is not how much is too much, but how little is too little. There's a tendency in any field of learning to gain a little knowledge -- more knowledge than is enjoyed by the average person -- and to suddenly begin to feel an illusory mastery of the subject. I would say that the problem isn't that he has studied too much, but that he's studied enough to gain more knowledge than the average person but not enough to begin to understand the depth of the subject and how little he actually knows. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
12/7/15 10:10 am
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Da Sheik |
 Thankfully he didn't descend into the "spirit of Python" or some other gross misapplication of Greek. I think a lot of the problem stems from a reluctance to deviate from the KJV. When you are forced to paraphrase a text, the temptation to appeal to the Greek for support for a point is much greater. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1862
12/7/15 10:14 am
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Da Sheik |
| Excellent points Dave! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1862
12/7/15 10:16 am
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Cojak |
In the pew, when I could hear well, it sometimes bothered me to be overwhelmed by the messenger who seemed to be 'changing' the meaning from what 'we' were taught to believe.
Maybe today the messenger feels he has a more educated audience, since he is probably educated, and they can handle the revelations of the 'original Greek'.
Many pastors can use the Word effectively, but us old folk get skeered when a preacher has the audacity to say, 'BUT WHAT IT REALLY MEANS IS THIS'.
Folks don't realize us old folk know King James could write what he meant!  It was King James who wrote it, right? 
I do get the point, and yes IMHO there can be too much Greek in many settings. 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24282
12/7/15 10:25 am
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bonnie knox |
I can't help thinking of Jerry Clower's description, "educated beyond his intelligence." I remember hearing a guy appealing to Strong's for the definition of "one" or something like that in a passage such as "every ONE that doeth evil." It made for some interesting, though not edifying, gymnastics.
If you can advise the guy to "keep it real" and not get too bogged down in definitions, that would be good advice, I think. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
12/7/15 10:31 am
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Da Sheik |
| Cojak wrote: | | Many pastors can use the Word effectively, but us old folk get skeered when a preacher has the audacity to say, 'BUT WHAT IT REALLY MEANS IS THIS'. |
I think that what I'm referring to. Thankfully the pastor yesterday did not do this, but I have witnessed this myriad times. The preacher had some "revelation" he wanted to share and used a misapplication of a Greek word (aka "exegetical fallacy") in order to bolster credibility. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1862
12/7/15 10:37 am
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| The big fallacy of Greek/Hebrew... |
Aaron Scott |
Consider that our translations of the Bible were done by SCHOLARS who had intimate understanding of the Biblical languages.
I consider it a FARCE to make students take Greek or Hebrew for Bible Studies UNLESS they intend to become a doctor in linguistics/languages, etc.
Consider this too obvious scenario.... A minister who has two semesters of Greek gets up and has something to say about the translation of the Bible. He is basing this on his meager education in the languages, despite the translation having been rendered by lifetime experts in the field.
So why take Greek? Do we not trust the translators? And if we don't, wouldn't we need Greek EXPERTS to take that on, and no those with only a cursory understanding of the language?
Here's the deal, if you're going to contest the translation or provide some other understanding of the Greek, then you should be a Greek EXPERT...and not just someone with minimal skills in Greek.
Of course, that has never stopped colleges/universities from requiring this cursory understanding. After all, hope springs eternal that some first year Greek student will find some stunning mistake in the KJV that will forever change our understanding and doctrine.
Give me a break. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
12/7/15 10:41 am
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Da Sheik |
You make some good points Aaron. I'm one of those you speak of that has a few years of Hebrew and Greek under my belt but I am by no means a scholar. Having said that, I am thankful for the knowledge I do have and believe it has enriched my study of the scriptures. Much like the 4 semesters of Spanish helped me get the gist of a conversation in Spanish but makes me far from an "expert" in the language!!
I think it all depends on the attitude of the student. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1862
12/7/15 11:01 am
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| Da Sheik... |
Aaron Scott |
Please know that I am NOT denigrating your accomplishment. Nor am I suggesting that knowing Greek is not worthwhile.
I AM saying that it should be an elective, since knowing Greek serves little purpose in the larger scheme. It is my belief that Master and Doctoral studies are often arbitrarily, unnecessarily, and needlessly difficult due to reasons like this. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
12/7/15 12:10 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Did he have Moses interceding for Israel in tongues? Perry said ats why the dash is in exodus 32:32 in the KJV. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
12/7/15 12:11 pm
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Da Sheik |
Aaron I receive your comments in the spirit they were given and we are on the same page. And OTCP  ...that's the very thing I am railing against ! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1862
12/7/15 12:46 pm
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| Re: The big fallacy of Greek/Hebrew... |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | I consider it a FARCE to make students take Greek or Hebrew for Bible Studies UNLESS they intend to become a doctor in linguistics/languages, etc.
Give me a break.
It should be an elective, since knowing Greek serves little purpose in the larger scheme. |
The ole timer now knows why some are gung ho bout unaccredited docterates--you know, them what don't require much effort. Men/women standing before sinners/saints ever single week don't need no Greek/Hebrew. Aint no big deal. Pastors is gonna stand before the living God an give account fer everthing they preach, so learnin more bout the good Book aint no big deal. Take a short cut. Do it the cheap way. No need to study hard, discipline yaself an exegete correctly.
Hey, this is why they so many cults. This is why woffie doctrine is embraced by so many COG preachers. PINK FLOYD is their theme group.
We don't need no education
We don't need to study at all
Just give us a Strong's Concordance
An we'll fulfill our Gospel call
We see it all the time in Pentecostal churches. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
12/7/15 3:09 pm
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| Re: Too much Greek? |
Cojak |
| Da Sheik wrote: | Yesterday I had the privilege of being present at the installation of a new pastor on our district. He is a great young man with a wonderful spirit. His new congregation seems so excited to have him and I'm happy for him. I wish him nothing but the best. I found the service somewhat strange however.
He preached from the KJV (I assume that's his preference and that's ok!) but he spent half of the time explaining what the Olde English meant in modern terms. Furthermore, he referred to about a dozen Greek words during the sermon. Obviously the autographs were written in Hebrew and Greek and I can appreciate that. But I found him falling into exegetical fallacies that are common with those who only have a cursory knowledge of Hebrew/Greek.
So I wonder - how much Greek is too much ? I know he wanted to put his best foot forward and the sermon was good overall. I just felt it was overkill. The congregation is happy and that's all that matters. |
This is absolutely a good discussion point. Years ago (me) and every preacher had a Strong's, some used it for what it was a 'reference', others let it be their TEACHER and used their own interpretation of the 'interpretations' to impress the uneducated.
My dad used it for his own education, there wasn't much else that the average preacher could buy outside some college text book. Some have degraded Strong's to a useless book, I don't know myself, I gave mine away. Strong's read much smarter than I was, that is for sure.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24282
12/7/15 3:22 pm
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| Re: Too much Greek? |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Cojak wrote: | | Some have degraded Strong's to a useless book, I don't know myself, I gave mine away. Strong's read much smarter than I was, that is for sure. |
Since I made a few comments bout Strong's a few times, let the ole timer chime in an defend his position.
1. Strong's Concordance lists ever word in the KJV, tells the passage(s), an gives a very succinct definition from the original language.
2. For what it is, Strong's is a excellent study tool.
3. Strong's was not designed (nor does it do so) to be an in-depth linguistic tool. It's like learnin English. Ya gotta start with learnin ya A-B-C's. Strong's is like learnin ya A-B-C's. These aint disparaging remarks, cause to gain skill in a language ya gotta learn the alphabet.
What the ole timer has said about Strong's that may be perceived as negative (although it aint) is that it is dangerous/problematic when fellers begin building doctrine based on a Strong's level of linguistic skill.
Again, Strong's is an excellent tool for what it is--a very basic linguistic tool. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
12/8/15 2:13 pm
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| OTCP... |
Aaron Scott |
| Quote: | The ole timer now knows why some are gung ho bout unaccredited docterates--you know, them what don't require much effort.
This has NOTHING to do with how hard or easy it is to obtain a doctorate. It has EVERYTHING to do with NEEDLESS courses that serve little purpose and are designed to make it look like you are "really gettin' an education!"
While I respect higher education, there is a scam to higher education. Part of it is "accreditation." Nothing wrong with it...so long as no one thinks that an accredited degree means you got a good education...or that not having an accredited degree means you got a bad one. Nope.
The other "scam" (that may not be the best word) is, in my particular field--philosophy--I would have had to learn German, French, or Greek to obtain a doctorate. I mean, are the translations suspect in some way? And if they are, surely someone has fixed them by now, right? Am I to suppose that li'l ol' me, with my two semesters of foreign language, am now ready to parse the depths of philosophical content based on my, at best, cursory knowledge of the language? I mean, am I really expected to challenge the finest minds in language with my brief language overview? "The high, honorable, reverend, Dr. Theophilus, according to what I learnt in school last semester, has made a terrible mess of the translation of this important document! It was supposed to be about The Three Pigs, but he done made it into some philosophical treatise unbeknownst to us folks!"
Men/women standing before sinners/saints ever single week don't need no Greek/Hebrew.
You are EXACTLY RIGHT. We've had the KJV for several centuries...we have had other translations that some consider even better...and there has not been a single "gotcha" moment in which someone exclaims, "Egads! We've been reading it all wrong! The whole monotheistic point is wrong! We've been told that the ancient languages say, 'There is no God beside Me," but REALLY, after my taking some language studies and stuff, it says: "There is no God beside Me...and Ba'al and Zeus and Dagon."
You don't need to know or explain or preach a SINGLE word of Greek or Aramaic. The translation has already been done by the finest minds and scholarship on earth. Nope, sorry, OTCP, we won't be needing your two cents on what this or that Greek word "really" means. We're good.
I have no problem with explaining a Greek word (I do it myself). But to act as if you are not a proficient ministers if you don't know or study the Greek is FOOLISHNESS. It's just bull malarkey that has boiled over in the heads of folks who think that "real ministers" must know Greek/Hebrew.
Nope. Just read the English translations and you are set! Period.
Aint no big deal. Pastors is gonna stand before the living God an give account fer everthing they preach, so learnin more bout the good Book aint no big deal. Take a short cut. Do it the cheap way. No need to study hard, discipline yaself an exegete correctly.
Strawman alert! (You're actually getting pretty good at it.) We should study the Bible. You don't have to know the Greek to do that. You can read what the best translators on the planet have carefully, thoughtfully, reverently, over-and-over, determined to be the best interpretation of the text, and you can just go with that. After all, I don't have 30 years to devote to becoming a Greek expert so I can confirm that, yep, the KJV (or others) translators got it dead on!
Hey, here's an idea: YOU DO THAT FOR US! That'll allow us to do something that is actually important instead of fixing a problem that doesn't exist or trying to reinvent the wheel. You get on that right away and check in from time to time to let us know the great mistakes that were made, OK?
Hey, this is why they so many cults. This is why woffie doctrine is embraced by so many COG preachers. PINK FLOYD is their theme group.
We don't need no education
We don't need to study at all
Just give us a Strong's Concordance
An we'll fulfill our Gospel call
We see it all the time in Pentecostal churches.
If you are right, I wonder how all those early Christians got so far out of hand and into error and heresy? I mean, those folks really knew their Greek, didn't they? Certainly many times better than us! So, once again, OTCP, we find that you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting.
Cults don't start because someone doesn't know the Greek. They start because folks don't read and study the ENGLISH in their own Bible!
I hope you really are parodying this and are not serious. If you are, I won't be able to take you seriously from now on.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
12/8/15 2:48 pm
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Bullseye77 |
I have had the occasional privilege of hearing some preach who had mastered Greek, as well as other Biblical languages, and would be considered an authority on the subject. I do not recall ever, not even once, that they used a Greek word or attempted to define a term from the Greek during their message. They just simply preached. They weren't trying to impress anybody. They didn't have to. They just preached the Gospel. And that was impressive!
_________________
On Target!! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1441
12/8/15 3:16 pm
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| Re: OTCP... |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | Quote: | The ole timer now knows why some are gung ho bout unaccredited docterates--you know, them what don't require much effort.
This has NOTHING to do with how hard or easy it is to obtain a doctorate. It has EVERYTHING to do with NEEDLESS courses that serve little purpose and are designed to make it look like you are "really gettin' an education!"
While I respect higher education, there is a scam to higher education. Part of it is "accreditation." Nothing wrong with it...so long as no one thinks that an accredited degree means you got a good education...or that not having an accredited degree means you got a bad one. Nope.
The other "scam" (that may not be the best word) is, in my particular field--philosophy--I would have had to learn German, French, or Greek to obtain a doctorate. I mean, are the translations suspect in some way? And if they are, surely someone has fixed them by now, right? Am I to suppose that li'l ol' me, with my two semesters of foreign language, am now ready to parse the depths of philosophical content based on my, at best, cursory knowledge of the language? I mean, am I really expected to challenge the finest minds in language with my brief language overview? "The high, honorable, reverend, Dr. Theophilus, according to what I learnt in school last semester, has made a terrible mess of the translation of this important document! It was supposed to be about The Three Pigs, but he done made it into some philosophical treatise unbeknownst to us folks!"
Men/women standing before sinners/saints ever single week don't need no Greek/Hebrew.
You are EXACTLY RIGHT. We've had the KJV for several centuries...we have had other translations that some consider even better...and there has not been a single "gotcha" moment in which someone exclaims, "Egads! We've been reading it all wrong! The whole monotheistic point is wrong! We've been told that the ancient languages say, 'There is no God beside Me," but REALLY, after my taking some language studies and stuff, it says: "There is no God beside Me...and Ba'al and Zeus and Dagon."
You don't need to know or explain or preach a SINGLE word of Greek or Aramaic. The translation has already been done by the finest minds and scholarship on earth. Nope, sorry, OTCP, we won't be needing your two cents on what this or that Greek word "really" means. We're good.
I have no problem with explaining a Greek word (I do it myself). But to act as if you are not a proficient ministers if you don't know or study the Greek is FOOLISHNESS. It's just bull malarkey that has boiled over in the heads of folks who think that "real ministers" must know Greek/Hebrew.
Nope. Just read the English translations and you are set! Period.
Aint no big deal. Pastors is gonna stand before the living God an give account fer everthing they preach, so learnin more bout the good Book aint no big deal. Take a short cut. Do it the cheap way. No need to study hard, discipline yaself an exegete correctly.
Strawman alert! (You're actually getting pretty good at it.) We should study the Bible. You don't have to know the Greek to do that. You can read what the best translators on the planet have carefully, thoughtfully, reverently, over-and-over, determined to be the best interpretation of the text, and you can just go with that. After all, I don't have 30 years to devote to becoming a Greek expert so I can confirm that, yep, the KJV (or others) translators got it dead on!
Hey, here's an idea: YOU DO THAT FOR US! That'll allow us to do something that is actually important instead of fixing a problem that doesn't exist or trying to reinvent the wheel. You get on that right away and check in from time to time to let us know the great mistakes that were made, OK?
Hey, this is why they so many cults. This is why woffie doctrine is embraced by so many COG preachers. PINK FLOYD is their theme group.
We don't need no education
We don't need to study at all
Just give us a Strong's Concordance
An we'll fulfill our Gospel call
We see it all the time in Pentecostal churches.
If you are right, I wonder how all those early Christians got so far out of hand and into error and heresy? I mean, those folks really knew their Greek, didn't they? Certainly many times better than us! So, once again, OTCP, we find that you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting.
Cults don't start because someone doesn't know the Greek. They start because folks don't read and study the ENGLISH in their own Bible!
I hope you really are parodying this and are not serious. If you are, I won't be able to take you seriously from now on.
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Got no time to respond at the moment, but later tonight after the Christmas party me an momma is headin off to, hey, I will respond seri item as Ray Hughes would say. No parody at all, Aaron, dead serious on all points. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
12/8/15 6:09 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
Aaron,
I took a Greek class.
I am no scholar - but it did help me make sense of it for myself.
When I teach however, I study enough to explain to my students. I don't throw Greek words in - I study so I don't have to throw Greek words in. I find out what they mean - and incorporate their meaning into my teaching. The average student wants to apply something to their life - not spout some Greek word. The teacher out to study everything he can, however, to show himself approved.
What if we let Obama teach us law - since he studied more of it than we have? Would that be ok? Or would it be better to study some of it ourselves and confirm whether he is telling us the truth or a bunch of B S.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16633
12/8/15 6:33 pm
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