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 "10 Questions for Rule-of-Law Critics of Kim Davis" (L) |
bonnie knox |
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| Re: "10 Questions for Rule-of-Law Critics of Kim Davis" (L) |
Cojak |
Very good article. Do I agree? to some of it. Some I do not understand not long out of surgery and carrying that long an article is tough on my eyes and mind,
He has some good points, one, "She could be trying to establish a 'Sanctuary county', as compared to the states/president and illegal immigrants sanctuary cities. Thne WE conservatives do not BELIEVE in sanctuary cities for immigrants.
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http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24282
9/11/15 12:02 am
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c6thplayer1 |
I like the pre existing law argument.
I may use it;
When I bought my house the speed limit was 45mph on the road to my house.
Now its 35 mph. Why do I have to obey the new law ? It wasnt that way when I took residency. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
9/11/15 1:32 pm
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John Jett |
| c6thplayer1 wrote: | I like the pre existing law argument.
I may use it;
When I bought my house the speed limit was 45mph on the road to my house.
Now its 35 mph. Why do I have to obey the new law ? It wasnt that way when I took residency. |
That's a good start but a better analogy is that you were elected to do one job, then in the middle of that term you were told to do something completely different, even the opposite of what you had believed you were asked to do. Maybe you were an officer in the German army and you were suddenly told to arrest Jews and take their property. Don't you think your moral compass should take precedence over a law that didn't exist when you were elected? The Hague certainly did. Not that this is life and death, but in principle we should not let a law that is contrary to our belief and ultimately contrary to the good of society suddenly override what we had been doing all along. Maybe (just maybe) its fair to force the next person elected to do it knowing what the "law" is now. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4955
9/15/15 2:06 pm
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Link |
Mattthew 23:21
And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
Government officials place their hands on the Bible to swear or affirm that they will uphold the laws. The president swears to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, 'so help me God.'
Here is the federal judicial oath,
"I, _________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all the duties incumbent upon me as _________ under the Constitution and laws of the United States; and that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."
according to http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/oath/textoftheoathsofoffice2009.aspx
When you put your hand on the Bible and swear 'so help me God' you are isn't that swearing to God? And doesn't it imply that the Constitution and all of your duties are subject to God and the Bible you put your hand on to swear.
I don't know the Kentucky oaths of office.
I don't see how anyone can make a case at all for Kim Davis not keeping her oath for not signing 'gay marriage' licenses. Refusing to sign any marriage licenses at all? Maybe. But not for refusing to sign the gay marriage licenses.
We should be looking at the issue of Supreme Court justices breaking their oaths of office. There is nothing about gay marriage in the 14th amendment to the Constitution. The Supreme Court has no legal authority to create laws according to the United States Constitution.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
9/16/15 5:13 am
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John Stevenson |
Here's the Kentucky Clerk's oath:"I, ....., do swear that I will well and truly discharge the duties of the office of .............. County Circuit Court clerk, according to the best of my skill and judgment, making the due entries and records of all orders, judgments, decrees, opinions and proceedings of the court, and carefully filing and preserving in my office all books and papers which come to my possession by virtue of my office; and that I will not knowingly or willingly commit any malfeasance of office, and will faithfully execute the duties of my office without favor, affection or partiality, so help me God."
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www.bwcuhrichsville.org |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 671
9/19/15 8:37 pm
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THE LOVE OF GOD |
| Daniel and the 3 Hebrew boys refused to obey the King's laws and God came through for them. Churches and preachers will be next. What IF your pastor was asked to perform the marriage ceremony or even being asked to use the church facilities for a wedding or reception. I know that Headquarters decreeded at the last Assemlby that we were against it and I am thankful for that BUT it will come where we will be challenged as ministers to perform the ceremony or use the facilities. We will definitely have to take a STAND against it as it is against the Word of God. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 385
9/19/15 9:27 pm
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c6thplayer1 |
| John Jett wrote: | | c6thplayer1 wrote: | I like the pre existing law argument.
I may use it;
When I bought my house the speed limit was 45mph on the road to my house.
Now its 35 mph. Why do I have to obey the new law ? It wasnt that way when I took residency. |
That's a good start but a better analogy is that you were elected to do one job, then in the middle of that term you were told to do something completely different, even the opposite of what you had believed you were asked to do. Maybe you were an officer in the German army and you were suddenly told to arrest Jews and take their property. Don't you think your moral compass should take precedence over a law that didn't exist when you were elected? The Hague certainly did. Not that this is life and death, but in principle we should not let a law that is contrary to our belief and ultimately contrary to the good of society suddenly override what we had been doing all along. Maybe (just maybe) its fair to force the next person elected to do it knowing what the "law" is now. |
Its the Law John. If I had a problem with it I should quite that Job. I have a problem working at a Porn shop and thats why I will not seek employment at a place like that. It to is a legal profession ,if you want to call it a profession.
Just as important if not more so , How do you get around the oath you take for office that John S posted?
| Quote: | | Here's the Kentucky Clerk's oath:"I, ....., do swear that I will well and truly discharge the duties of the office of .............. County Circuit Court clerk, according to the best of my skill and judgment, making the due entries and records of all orders, judgments, decrees, opinions and proceedings of the court, and carefully filing and preserving in my office all books and papers which come to my possession by virtue of my office; and that I will not knowingly or willingly commit any malfeasance of office, and will faithfully execute the duties of my office without favor, affection or partiality, so help me God." |
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
9/20/15 8:50 am
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| My questions for Kim Davis? |
Could It Be True |
I would like to know from Kim Davis when she was saved and exactly what parts of the Bible does she read?
Here is a woman, who according to reports, has been married 4 times and had 2 illegitimate children.
I think if she has a religious objection to doing her job then she should follow the example of magistrates in some other states who have quit their jobs and found other employment.
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Scars are tattoos with better stories. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 717
9/20/15 9:35 am
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| Re: My questions for Kim Davis? |
bonnie knox |
What did you think of the article I linked to in the OP?
| Could It Be True wrote: | I would like to know from Kim Davis when she was saved and exactly what parts of the Bible does she read?
Here is a woman, who according to reports, has been married 4 times and had 2 illegitimate children.
I think if she has a religious objection to doing her job then she should follow the example of magistrates in some other states who have quit their jobs and found other employment. |
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[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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9/20/15 12:20 pm
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| Re: My questions for Kim Davis? |
THE LOVE OF GOD |
| Could It Be True wrote: | I would like to know from Kim Davis when she was saved and exactly what parts of the Bible does she read?
Here is a woman, who according to reports, has been married 4 times and had 2 illegitimate children.
I think if she has a religious objection to doing her job then she should follow the example of magistrates in some other states who have quit their jobs and found other employment. |
I heard she was saved 4 years ago. All those sins are under the Blood. She was voted in for that position. I heard her salary was $70K and another place said $80K. That is not an easy job to just give up. I think she did the right thing in fighting for her right. She might have encouraged others to do the same. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 385
9/20/15 12:49 pm
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| Re: My questions for Kim Davis? |
c6thplayer1 |
| THE LOVE OF GOD wrote: | | Could It Be True wrote: | I would like to know from Kim Davis when she was saved and exactly what parts of the Bible does she read?
Here is a woman, who according to reports, has been married 4 times and had 2 illegitimate children.
I think if she has a religious objection to doing her job then she should follow the example of magistrates in some other states who have quit their jobs and found other employment. |
I heard she was saved 4 years ago. All those sins are under the Blood. She was voted in for that position. I heard her salary was $70K and another place said $80K. That is not an easy job to just give up. I think she did the right thing in fighting for her right. She might have encouraged others to do the same. |
I would bet if the job only paid 8k a year there wouldnt be a story about Kim.
Says a lot about people and money dont it? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
9/20/15 1:14 pm
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| Re: My questions for Kim Davis? |
Could It Be True |
| THE LOVE OF GOD wrote: | | I heard she was saved 4 years ago. All those sins are under the Blood. |
That answers that question.
I still think that if you have a job that you cannot do because of religious convictions you need to quit and find another job. You are not giving the wage payers what they are paying for. If you can't do the job go find one you can do.
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Scars are tattoos with better stories. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 717
9/22/15 3:41 pm
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| Re: My questions for Kim Davis? |
Could It Be True |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | What did you think of the article I linked to in the OP? |
Not very much.
When a judge orders you to do something, then by law you are obligated to do it. Read Romans 13.
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Scars are tattoos with better stories. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 717
9/22/15 3:44 pm
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| Re: My questions for Kim Davis? |
THE LOVE OF GOD |
[
When a judge orders you to do something, then by law you are obligated to do it. Read Romans 13.[/quote]
If you are a minister, what happens when 2 people of the same sex want you to marry them? Are you going to perform the ceremony since it is the law? If you are a laymember, what if your pastor was asked to perform the ceremony? What if they wanted to use your church facilities?
The 3 Hebrews defied the law of the land and also Daniel and many many others.
Come quickly Lord Jesus!!! |
Friendly Face
Posts: 385
9/22/15 4:51 pm
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| Re: My questions for Kim Davis? |
Quiet Wyatt |
| Could It Be True wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | What did you think of the article I linked to in the OP? |
Not very much.
When a judge orders you to do something, then by law you are obligated to do it. Read Romans 13. |
Judges are NOT dictators, nor are they legislators. Christians have no obligation to obey an unjust, unrighteous, unconstitutional law. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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9/22/15 6:28 pm
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| Re: My questions for Kim Davis? |
Could It Be True |
| THE LOVE OF GOD wrote: | | [If you are a minister, what happens when 2 people of the same sex want you to marry them? Are you going to perform the ceremony since it is the law? |
A pastor is not elected and hired to marry anyone. A pastor is free to choose whom he will marry. This lady was elected and hired to do specific things. Your comparison is apples and oranges.
If she cannot do the job she was elected and hired to do because of her religious convictions I respect that. But she needs to find another job.
This is what many of you are missing: in their recent rulings the Supreme Court has left open the door for religious exceptions. But a religious organization and even a business such as Hobby Lobby is completely different from someone holding a public office like county clerk. The courts will allow religious exceptions for churches, not individuals holding a public office.
There was a case before the Supreme Court a while back in which a woman who had become pregnant out of wedlock sued the Catholic school she taught at for firing her. The school contended that she broke the morals clause in her contract and let her go. The Supreme Court sided with the school and in the majority opinion stated that religious organizations have a right to discriminate.
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Scars are tattoos with better stories. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 717
9/24/15 8:43 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | This is what many of you are missing: in their recent rulings the Supreme Court has left open the door for religious exceptions. But a religious organization and even a business such as Hobby Lobby is completely different from someone holding a public office like county clerk. The courts will allow religious exceptions for churches, not individuals holding a public office. |
On that note, Kentucky could have done what North Carolina has already done and passed legislation that will protect a court clerks right to conscience.
However, this thread is about why critics of Kim Davis want to legitimize the decision of the Supreme Court in Obergefell. Are you nearly as concerned about SCOTUS "doing it's job" as you are about Kim Davis "doing her job"? Why are you worried more about a clerk who won't sign marriage licenses than about a Supreme Court which finds a right for homosexuals to marry each other in the US Constitution?
Is there ever a time when a law would be passed in which civil disobedience would be acceptable for a Christian? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
9/24/15 9:11 am
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| Bonnie |
Could It Be True |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | This is what many of you are missing: in their recent rulings the Supreme Court has left open the door for religious exceptions. But a religious organization and even a business such as Hobby Lobby is completely different from someone holding a public office like county clerk. The courts will allow religious exceptions for churches, not individuals holding a public office. |
On that note, Kentucky could have done what North Carolina has already done and passed legislation that will protect a court clerks right to conscience.
However, this thread is about why critics of Kim Davis want to legitimize the decision of the Supreme Court in Obergefell. Are you nearly as concerned about SCOTUS "doing it's job" as you are about Kim Davis "doing her job"? Why are you worried more about a clerk who won't sign marriage licenses than about a Supreme Court which finds a right for homosexuals to marry each other in the US Constitution?
Is there ever a time when a law would be passed in which civil disobedience would be acceptable for a Christian? |
You are incorrect about the North Carolina law. The law they passed pertains to magistrates performing same sex ceremonies, not clerks issuing licenses. Under the law passed in North Carolina magistrates can opt out of performing a same sex ceremonies on the grounds of religious convictions. However, if they do then they are not allowed to perform any wedding ceremonies for a period of 6 months. Magistrates are different from clerks in that they have the authority to perform wedding ceremonies but they are not required to do so under their actual job description. So a magistrate that refuses to perform a same sex ceremony is not actually refusing to do his/her job.
My opinion of Ms. Davis is not an attempt to legitimize the decision that was rendered by the Supreme Court. I whole-heartedly disagree with the decision. With that being said, the decision is what it is. It's what we have to live with. I do not take the "sky is falling" approach that some do because the SC has left open room for religious exceptions. Forcing a public official to do their job is completely different from forcing a pastor to do something that the pastor has a religious objection to.
You referenced North Carolina. Are you aware that since all of this has happened that a handful of magistrates there have resigned their positions and found other jobs? These folks really put their money where their mouth is.
You asked if there was ever a time when a law would be passed in which civil disobedience would be acceptable for a Christian? Yes. Christians meet together for worship illegally every day in some parts of the world. But I think comparing situations like that and the situation with Mrs. Davis is apples and oranges.
The Supreme Court is not requiring Mrs. Davis to violate her religious convictions. Her job description is. If she can't do that job she needs to give it up and find a job she can do. You can't serve God and mammon at the same time.
You also asked me:
| Quote: | | Why are you worried more about a clerk who won't sign marriage licenses than about a Supreme Court which finds a right for homosexuals to marry each other in the US Constitution? |
I'm not a constitutional scholar, but I can see how they can find that right for homosexuals under the equal protection clause. I disagree with it, but I can see how the arguement can be made.
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Scars are tattoos with better stories. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 717
9/25/15 8:30 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | I whole-heartedly disagree with the decision. With that being said, the decision is what it is. It's what we have to live with. |
The point is provisions could be made that would allow clerks like Kim Davis to keep her job and not violate her conscience.
Who says we have to live with it? What's wrong with civil disobedience? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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9/25/15 8:53 pm
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