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As a Minister of the Gospel I can not understand drinking
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Post Right...... spartanfan
So Pete, you're unqualified to discuss something Scripturally but you're qualified to be a great dad huh? Read the Bible and get a Scriptural opinion. Just because smarter guys than you disagree it doesn't mean you can't prayerfully form a right Scriptural opinion. You are deceived and in a very dangerous place spiritually. Drinking alcoholic beverages is warned against in the Scriptures consistently. Interpret Scripture with the whole body of Scripture and you'll agree with me, without question. There's no real debate here - just some people want to justify an occasional light buzz by distorting Scripture. Problem is, alcohol is a drug and addictive. But hey pal, don't take my word for it. Check out the government stats, the law enforcement stats, A A, do some medical searches and you'll find my stats at least fairly accurate as they can vary from source to source a little. Do you doubt alcohol plays a part in teenage deaths in motor vehicle accidents really or are you just being smart alec? Once you guys get away from Scripture and truth it's hard to communicate with you. Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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1/31/07 6:29 pm


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Post philunderwood
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Drinking alcoholic beverages is warned against in the Scriptures consistently.


as in a definitive prohibition? if so, then why the dealing with it by paul? why the exercise of moderation?
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1/31/07 6:33 pm


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Post Phil Kyle Percival
first, I am not a pastor.

I never intended to make a deep philosophical or theological statement by my prior post in this thread. I asked for opines.
I hope I have regained my stature in your eyes.

Also, it seems you parse words delicately between warnings against drinking and a definitive prohibition against the same.

I warn my children when they are approaching danger.

I think there is a deeper question at stake.
Do we want to dance as close to the fire as possible and hope we don't get burned?


I have also seen some pointed statements by others who attempt to tell Spartanfan what he thinks and feels. What gives there? Give the guy a break. He is just as entitled to his opinion as you are to yours.
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1/31/07 6:42 pm


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Post Drinking vs. not drinking get-a-life
Let's get out of the bars for a minute. It seems that the term drinking is being used in the context of going to bars, getting all boozed up, and whatever else goes with it in 2007 night life.

Let's separate the two for a moment.

Why is it different for someone to drink a beer or two or a 4-6oz glass of wine in the evenings to relax (in the privacy of their own home) than it is for a good church-member to take their daily dose of Prozac (or whatever else the good Doctor may prescribe for your being up tight)?

Beer/Wine is more natural than synthetic drugs, has been around MUCH longer, and, when used in MODERATION, has no ill effects. Please don't use the "potential for abuse" argument as ANY drug (pill, liquid, or rolled) has this potential.

Just wanted to hear a good saint (or other COG member) justify their being able to go to heaven on Prozac, while others can't while relaxing with a Sam Adams.

Looking forward to this chat....
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1/31/07 8:06 pm


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Post philunderwood
i just got home from an evening (well, two counting last night) with a group of pastors, leaders and Jesus lovers. probably 60% of whom were drinking ales, wine and such. there was no liquor consumed whatsoever. as we sat around these tables and i heard the stories of mission, connection and God-movement, i was challenged. the presence of the beverage in no way hindered the flow of conversation in the passionate pursuit of people far from God.

at my table were five people, including the leader of the emergent/us ministry, tony jones. these people, i can attest, love God and love people -which are the two missional commands of our Lord. they are seeing God work in places where God was not welcome before. they are touching the deep places of horror in our world (the amahoro project, darfur, etc) and caring for justice in ways that we have, as pentecostals, never had on our radar screen.

does this justify drunkenness? no.

does this endorse alcoholism? no.

does this encourage drinking? no.

what it says is this... for some people it is NOT a factor. my mentor is one of the most Godly men in the world. his personal influence has reshaped the entire church world over the last 30 years. the church association that grew from his teaching consists of over 11,000 Member Churches from 90 denominations and 45 countries. i hardly ever sit at a meal with this european native that we do not have wine or beer served as the beverage of preference. has his taste for fine wine or dark beer hindered him, God or the people he influences? absolutely not. has it made me want to become a drinker? absolutely not.

i say all that to say this... we make mountains out of molehills and because we make things into big issues and become prohibitive in our rules, we become the people paul warned about in colossians.

give it up, give it a rest, give it a break. it is NOT a big deal.
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Last edited by philunderwood on 2/1/07 12:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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1/31/07 11:00 pm


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Post How lost can you get? spartanfan
Contrary to the prevailing perception of the mob, the New Testament is amazingly consistent in its teaching of abstinence from the use of alcoholic beverages.

Serious seekers have found that the texts commonly used to support the moderationist view provide no support to such a view. On the contrary, some of them openly contradict the moderationist view.

The irony of the charge in Acts 2:13 that the apostles were drunk on gleukos, that is, grape juice, their common beverage, provides an indirect but important proof of their abstinent life-style consistent with the life-style of their Master.

Paul’s reference to "drunkenness" at the Communion table of the Corinthian church (1 Cor 11:21) offers no support for a moderate use of alcoholic wine, because whatever was done at Corinth was a departure from the instructions Paul had delivered to the church. Thus, their conduct constitutes a warning rather than an example for us. Furthermore, the study of the meaning of the verb methuo ("satiated") and of the implications of Paul’s admonitions suggests quite clearly that the problem at Corinth was gluttony rather than intoxication with alcoholic wine.

The intent of Paul’s admonition in Ephesians 5:18 ("Do not get drunk with wine") is not to sanction the moderate use of wine, but to show the irreconcilable contrast between the spirit of wine and presence of the Holy Spirit. The structure of the passage, as well as the possible connection between "wine" and the relative clause—recognized by many ancient and modern translations—makes the text one of the most powerful Biblical indictments against intoxicating wine.

The apostolic admonitions to sobriety and temperance call for a moderate use of all good things and total abstinence from all that is harmful. The references by some that alcohol in moderation is harmless is ridiculous. It is consistent from cover to cover that nothing good comes from social or recreational drinking of alcoholic beverages. Some have said our advocating abstinence is cultural. Quite the contrary - your advocating of drinking is based on a false understanding of the Christian culture in the first century. Look at Paul's instruction to Timothy to "drink no longer any water but use a little wine for your stomach's sake" as an example of how Scripture is being twisted. Idiots try to apply that specific instruction to Timothy to use "oinos" which may mean unfermented grape juice to themselves in the 21st century. It was written to Timothy from Paul - Timothy had a stomach illness and Paul was basically instructing him not to drink the water in Ephesus but use oinos for his stomach's sake. If you take that to apply to you today then don't forget the "Drink no longer water part" which would make it a violation of the word for you to drink any water. The study of the Greek terms (sophron, nepho, nephalios, and enkrateia) used in the apostolic admonitions has shown how these terms complement one another in emphasizing the Christian need for both mental vigilance and physical abstinence from intoxicating substances such as alcoholic beverages. The fundamental reason given by Peter and Paul for their call to a life of vigilance and abstinence is eschatological, namely, preparation to live in the holy presence of Christ at His soon coming. I am simply amazed that seemingly otherwise intelligent posters can't understand the difference between good and bad when it comes to wine or strong drink. It's bad - period. We have other beverages that are not associated with the culture of death to drink and America would be better off to dig a big hole out in New Mexico somewhere and throw all of our alcoholic beverages in it to curtail the killing, rapes, child molestation and abuse that is far too prevelant with the aid of alcoholic beverages to cloud judgment. It's a drug and it's addictive and nothing good ever comes out of a bottle of wine or beer and ministers who are supposed to love life should strongly oppose the drinking of alcoholic beverages under any and all circumstances. The references of great ministers who sit around and drink at meals does nothing but testify to their lack of sound judgment. If they really wanted to help people they'd stay as far away from the poison as possible instead of endorsing it by partaking of it. Everyone who uses it has clouded vision - I don't care if you can preach like A.A. Allen after you hit the sauce. If you emerge with a bottle in your hand you risk being submerged in the Lake of Fire. Can we no longer decide if something is inherently good or bad? How sad. Moderation is a joke - alcohol is an addictive drug. It's bad for us - period. It kills twelve times as many Americans each day as all illegal drug abuse combined. He who loves life sees the Biblical warnings concerning it and advocates total abstinence.
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2/1/07 12:21 am


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Post juice box
This guy ids from Europe and it is a whole DIFFERENT culture there.

If I went to my relatives for lets just say 4 of July party. There is always drinking at any of my relatives parties. I said hey give me a Bud Light in a bottle do you know what kind of reaction I would get.

#1 the people there that know me and know what i am and stand for would probably not give it to me

#2 In there minds I just dropped down to a level that they thought I would NEVER drop to. I'm not saying I am better than them just that they hold me at a higher standard than others.

#3 I know of a few relatives that would say "oh I thought that you were a preacher" and that would ruin EVERYTHING that I have stood for my entire adult life. They would never look at me or Christianity the same again.

don't go off using big words and telling me that I'm speculating because this is a constant thing that is put in front of me all the time.

and also phil if you are only around is "Christians" that drink then how will you ever know how others will react to a preacher that is drinking?
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2/1/07 5:32 am


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Post philunderwood
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don't go off using big words and telling me that I'm speculating because this is a constant thing that is put in front of me all the time.

and also phil if you are only around is "Christians" that drink then how will you ever know how others will react to a preacher that is drinking?


exactly! it is a cultural mandate, not scriptural. now, what scripture can be used in your situation? the command to not use our liberty to another's detriment. what is demanded of us here? wisdom. to be a Christ-follower demands attention to wisdom, keen discernment and diligent adherence to following the voice of the Spirit.

IF we casually cast off restraint, we fail. if we draw lines in the sand and demand everyone live by our convictions, we fail. if we become so fearful of outcomes we handcuff ourselves, we fail.

for many, including myself, abstinence seems the best alternative. to take that reflection and create litmus tests of acceptance, credibility and righteousness is unacceptable.

i deliberately choose to relinquish rights and allowances, in this Spirit-life, in order to protect myself and others. to me, that is wisdom. at the same time, i will never throw my mainline christian friends under the bus because they do not share my conviction. i will never tell then they are in danger of hell because of their belief and behavior if i cannot see a clear prohibition in Scripture.

it is not a pick-and-choose life we are called to lead. "anything goes" is not the way. at the same time creating rules to constrain the flesh is useless. paul said so. i believe in the power of God to bring conviction where needed, and i am responsible to live by mine...in totality.
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Post Dead wrong Phil... spartanfan
Your sippin saint friends would do well to follow your example. You say it's culture that allows them to drink and you not to. So in essence they are letting their culture say it's okay when it is consistent in the Bible that alcoholic beverages are poison. Culture is the only think that advocates it in some cases - never the Word of God. Never the Holy Spirit. So sip pin saints throw off the restraints of the Word because their culture allows them to. Wisdom - you want to talk about wisdom! You have it and your friends don't. It's that simple. You are right to abstain and they are wrong to partake. Either drinking alcoholic beverages is wise and consistent with Scripture or it is foolish and contrary to the Word cover to cover. You have no Scriptures commanding you to do it and hundreds telling you how it causes physical impairment, mental impairment and spiritual impairment. What does the voice of wisdom say? It says leave it alone - it serves no good purpose. You don't need it as a beverage as there are far better options and it is a drug, it is addictive and it's killing us. Over 50% of the rapes in America involve alcohol, 32% of child molestations and abuse and it is involved in 60% of fatal car wrecks and you think wise and spiritual men partake of it when the whole world would be better off without it's existence. Where's the wisdom in that kind of thinking. You feel good about your decision to leave it alone and you should. That's wise. Even if you took the "all things are lawful but not all things are expedient" view of this however, you would be wrong. All things are not lawful - only those things that the Scripture does not give advice to forsake are lawful. So that verse doesn't apply to drinking because drinking is bad and warned against in the Scriptures. You have the right personal conviction but here's your problem - you embrace those who ignore the Word in a crucial area because they are nice guys with compassion. I say it's people like them that send mixed signals that other Christians can't understand. I say they are a part of the problem and have nothing to add to the solution. If every pulpit in America preached total abstinence then we wouldn't have as many members of MADD and AA. If every pulpit in America preached against drinking then there would be fewer souls in hell so any attempt to unite alcohol with Spirit-filled living is absurd. You know it, but your sip pin saint friends like the little buzz of the drug they get with a glass or two. How much does it take to impair you physically or mentally. Is it .08, (2 beers, 1 glass of 14% wine) more or less? How much, at what point is it sin? Wisdom, let's talk wisdom. It is not necessary. It is not commanded in Scripture. The Scriptures speak consistently against it as being poison and biting like a snake. All of the Scriptures people use to try to justify it are being used out of context. Wisdom says it's a drug, it's addictive, it kills 12 times as many Americans every day as all other illegal drug use combined - wisdom associates it with sin and wickedness. Quit embracing blatant in you face sinners - especially clergymen - and be the voice of wisdom crying out in a wilderness of sin. Would it be wrong for you, knowing what you know, to drink a beer in front of your kids at dinner tonight? You know it would. Why is it alright then for guys who you think to be wiser and more spiritual than you? You friend are wiser than the whole bunch of them put together. If I were you I would throw them under the bus on this one pal (figure of speech)! Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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2/1/07 9:49 am


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Post as a minister justufied
in the church of god i cannot understand not drinking :wink: Hey, DOC
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2/2/07 1:27 pm


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Post Re: As a Minister of the Gospel I can not understand drinkin Link
juice box wrote:

How can a Minister, Preacher, leader in a church think that going into a bar and buying a drink or drinking a beer with a sinner is going to get them saved. Yes I know that you will probably say "well we are just being relevant" I think that is an excuse for wanting to drink and finding a way to justify it.
This is my Opinion I'm just expressing it!

how can it not hurt the witness that you have built up with probably hundreds of other people?
IMHO you will hurt more people than you can help.


Well, Jesus apparently drank with publicans and sinners. He admitted He drank with them, but not that He was a winebibber, as His opponents falsely charged them.

Drinking would only hurt people as you describe in pockets of culture where drinking is considred wrong, like among conservative fundies in the Bible belt, or in Muslim countries. In much of the world, that does not consider drinking to be a sin, drinking with someone, if done responsibly and in moderation, would not cause the problem you describe.

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So lets just say that you do this and you have an effect on the one person that you went to the bar with. He gets saved and starts coming to your church. Now what do you go everyday with him to the bar so he can get drunk while you just buy him the first one or two.


You assume that everyone drinks to get drunk. What if the guy only drinks two beers? If a preacher drinks beer with a new believer, it makes sense that he would teach the new believer about moderation, doesn't it? Do you think Jesus encouraged or tolerated drunkenness when he drank with sinners?

Quote:

Then he blows the rest of his paycheck on drinks. And you probably wouldn't want to say anything because you don't want to hurt his feelings.


What would Jesus do?

Quote:

I just can not justify the fact that a Minister would buy a beer for someone else. You can call me old school or whatever you want but I am only 31 years old and CAN NOT UNDERSTAND THIS?


One could say the same thing about eating at Ryans or some of the buffet chains around here. Church people can be real gluttons.

You seem to be assuming that drinking alcohol is categorically wrong. That doesn't line up with the word. The weak conscience passages in I Corinthians 8-10 and Romans 14 are the issue here. Though the issue then with meat and wine was idolatry, not alcohol consumption, the principles still apply.
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Post bible belt? revfromjax
i don't live in the bible belt. spartanfan doesn't live in the bible belt. if my fellow workers, whom i witness to, saw me drink, i would never have any credibility again.
i was not raised in church. i used to drink. i drank to get drunk. my friends drank to get drunk. this saintly sipping is ridiculous. why do you sip? why? that is the question here. why? is it the liberty we have or merely a symptom of a larger spiritual problem. you can say that you like to have a glass of wine with dinner because it enhances the taste of the dinner. you can try to justify drinking all you want, but the question glaring is why?
i have many friends at work that are drunks. i know that, they know that. they are great guys, but sinners going to hell. i see great people destroying their life with beer. they know my life. i have told them about my past and how my past almost destroyed me. i don't have to go drink with them in order to befriend them. i don't have to compromise in order to win them. i am already relevant to them. i have a history like theirs that i use in order to witness.
so why then? why do we need to drink? why do we need to go to the bar to win the lost? these people are all around you. they don't live in the bar.
if you ask, the lord will send them to you. and i mean send them to you in other places and situations besides the bar.
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Post Re: bible belt? Link
revfromjax wrote:
i don't live in the bible belt. spartanfan doesn't live in the bible belt. if my fellow workers, whom i witness to, saw me drink, i would never have any credibility again.
i was not raised in church. i used to drink. i drank to get drunk. my friends drank to get drunk. this saintly sipping is ridiculous. why do you sip? why? that is the question here. why? is it the liberty we have or merely a symptom of a larger spiritual problem. you can say that you like to have a glass of wine with dinner because it enhances the taste of the dinner. you can try to justify drinking all you want, but the question glaring is why?



Well, first of all, I don't drink. When I realized it wasn't a sin, after several years, I tasted wine and beer to see what he fuss was. I've probably had about a total of two glasses of wine and maybe one beer in my life, cumulative (all added up.) That was years ago. The stuff tastes nasty to me.

I don't really get why people drink, but I can't figure out why Indonesians are crazy about durian or salted fish either. I can't figure out why anyone would want to eat limburger cheese. Some of the Indonesians I've given olives can't figure out why anyone would eat anything so bitter.

Why did Jesus drink wine? Wouldn't that be a better question, rather than assuming that I drink. The OT warns against being seduced by wine. On the other hand, it says that God gave man wine to make the heart merry, and oil to make his face to shine. If you think drinking wine is a sin, would you put rubbing oil on your face in the sin category as well? Why would something the Bible speaks positively of be sinful.

One way the Israelites could pay tithes, if they lived far away, was to buy wine or strong drink and drink it. There is no mention of drinking water or cola as a part of tithing. But drinking alcoholic beverages is in there. Why is that, if drinking alcohol is absolutely forbidden.

Misusing alcohol is forbidden. John the Baptists abstained from alcohol. They said he has a devil. Jesus did not. They called Him a winebibber. When Jesus talked about this, He did not deny drinking alcohol. He said 'the Son of Man came eating and drinking.'

Why? Why? Why? Why do people drink alcohol?

Why do some people drink cola? I haven't heard of any studies that cola reduces the chance of heart disease. It probably isn't very good for you to drink a lot of it.

Why do some people eat limburger cheese? I don't consider that a sin, but I do consider it rather nasty smelling.

Some people like wine or beer. Yes, there are those high society types who prefer red meat with red wine and white meat with white wine. There are Germans who like a beer after work. There are Americans who like beer too, and don't drink to the point of drunkeness. You can either look down your nose at them and consider them to be sinners, or you can realize that Jesus drank alcohol with sinners, and that Jesus was without sin.
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Post Phil you seem confused. Kyle Percival
You want to justify someone drinking with their cultural background while denying someone else's convictions due to the same.

It is sad when someone feels the need to rationalize what they are doing and acts as if they do not see the error.

You also said that drinking does not endorse alcoholism or encourage drinking???? How much more confused can someone get?

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