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 How do they pick ministers to become administrative bishops? |
Quiet Wyatt |
It seems like a major factor is numerical success in a local church and a willingness to move on from that local church in order to become an AB.
I’m just wondering about what the criteria might be besides the above, if any. No doubt who one knows makes a difference as well.
I’m not meaning to imply anything necessarily negative about any particular AB. I just wonder about the process, what criteria are used to determine if a man should be promoted to AB. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12798
11/19/23 8:54 pm
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Cojak |
Looking back over the years it does seem that numeric success as a pastor has been a big GO TO flag along with other requirements I am sure. BUT that does not always produce a good administrator.
Some men are glad to accept the appointment if it takes them into the retirement age group. Others in the last few years have not been successfully returned to pastorate equal to the one they left.
Just an observation from afar. My BIL retired from overseer jobs, but I don't think he planned it that way because he was in his mid 50s before he was chosen.
He did tell me one question he was asked, it was, "If you are assigned this position do you promise to fullfil the full time and not resign and return to NC."
He said he told the one asking, "If you send me there I will do the job or die trying!"
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Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
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http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24278
11/20/23 6:45 pm
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skinnybishop |
A very interesting question. It is also one I've asked several times. simply out of curiosity. When I was in secular employment, there was a defined process. When I worked for the Georgia Forestry Commission, and especially the Georgia Dept. of Transportation, it was very simple:
A District Engineer (Administrative Bishop) was chosen from a pool of applicants that came from a certain organizational level.
Typically, a District Engineer had the following people (depts) under his/her direct supervision:
Construction Engineer
Preconstruction Engineer
Traffic Operations Engineer
Utilities Engineer
Maintenance Engineer
Administrative Engineer
Safety Engineer
Etc.
You normally had to serve in one of these roles, to be considered for the District Engineer's spot. Everyone knew and understood the process and the path required, to get from entry level, to a supervisor's role.
I have no idea how that process works in the COG.
It feels dirty to say, but I think you need a record of success and a connection of influence.
_________________
Eddie Wiggins |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1055
11/28/23 9:36 am
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MrSippi |
| skinnybishop wrote: | | It feels dirty to say, but I think you need a record of success and a connection of influence. |
Nothing against the overseers out there, but I am not sure that "success" is necessarily a qualifier. I don't see successful pastors jumping out of strong churches these days to become state overseers. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 156
11/28/23 10:18 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
| MrSippi wrote: | | skinnybishop wrote: | | It feels dirty to say, but I think you need a record of success and a connection of influence. |
Nothing against the overseers out there, but I am not sure that "success" is necessarily a qualifier. I don't see successful pastors jumping out of strong churches these days to become state overseers. |
This is true.
2) You got to be average (not great pastor) to get the job
3) a pretty good preacher
4) and you need to hang out at all the preacher gatherings and mingle, making sure to make friends with everyone.
But number one 1) be related to someone that is already an administrator. Those that do not have this number one requirement - must beat almost insurmountable odds to get to be an overseer. If they do, they will probably actually be a pretty good overseer.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16621
11/29/23 7:35 am
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Cojak |
NBF said:
This is true.
2) You got to be average (not great pastor) to get the job
3) a pretty good preacher
4) and you need to hang out at all the preacher gatherings and mingle, making sure to make friends with everyone.
But number one 1) be related to someone that is already an administrator. Those that do not have this number one requirement - must beat almost insurmountable odds to get to be an overseer. If they do, they will probably actually be a pretty good overseer.
That highlighted area has proven to be very true. Not that some of the others haven't done well as overseers, But many of the 'Unknowns' have done real well and were a blessing...... That is JMO
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24278
11/30/23 1:18 pm
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Da Sheik |
“The process” can be reduced to a singular word. That word would be “politics”. The trajectory of said process is fairly tried and true. To climb the pyramid, one should and must:
1. Become credentialed, licensed, ordained
2. Pastor a church. Pay your dues. Suffer through several bad assignments until being rewarded with a bigger church. (If you are related to someone in state leadership , skip step #2).
3. Spend your summers at youth camp. Do this until you’ve got enough leverage to campaign for state youth board. Network like crazy. Trust the process.
4. Once on youth board, spend lots of time networking with those in state leadership. Perhaps you will be afforded a shot at a legacy church. This is crucial to proceed to step#5.
5. After securing spot at well-known church, you’re in a perfect spot for a seat on the state council. You’re almost there. Trust the process.
6. You now have a seat on the state council. Good things come to those that wait and don’t try to skip in line.
7. Continue to pastor until you no longer want to deal with the day to day grind of ministry. Patience is essential. The never-ending musical chairs of the AB circuit make it difficult to break the glass ceiling.
8. Eventually, an AB will retire or leave a 1-Star region. This will be your one chance - You can do it !
9. Welcome to the Big Leagues Mr. Overseer! Spend the year planning camp meeting. Your biggest daily challenge will be, “where do we go for lunch today ?” Enjoy it! You’ve earned it!!
10. If you don’t have the intestinal fortitude for steps 1-9, marry the daughter of the overseer. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
11/30/23 6:10 pm
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FLRon |
| Da Sheik wrote: | “The process” can be reduced to a singular word. That word would be “politics”. The trajectory of said process is fairly tried and true. To climb the pyramid, one should and must:
1. Become credentialed, licensed, ordained
2. Pastor a church. Pay your dues. Suffer through several bad assignments until being rewarded with a bigger church. (If you are related to someone in state leadership , skip step #2).
3. Spend your summers at youth camp. Do this until you’ve got enough leverage to campaign for state youth board. Network like crazy. Trust the process.
4. Once on youth board, spend lots of time networking with those in state leadership. Perhaps you will be afforded a shot at a legacy church. This is crucial to proceed to step#5.
5. After securing spot at well-known church, you’re in a perfect spot for a seat on the state council. You’re almost there. Trust the process.
6. You now have a seat on the state council. Good things come to those that wait and don’t try to skip in line.
7. Continue to pastor until you no longer want to deal with the day to day grind of ministry. Patience is essential. The never-ending musical chairs of the AB circuit make it difficult to break the glass ceiling.
8. Eventually, an AB will retire or leave a 1-Star region. This will be your one chance - You can do it !
9. Welcome to the Big Leagues Mr. Overseer! Spend the year planning camp meeting. Your biggest daily challenge will be, “where do we go for lunch today ?” Enjoy it! You’ve earned it!!
10. If you don’t have the intestinal fortitude for steps 1-9, marry the daughter of the overseer. |
I have no doubt that this describes the process accurately. What a pity that there is no mention of God being in the works.
_________________
“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Voddie Baucham |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 774
11/30/23 8:00 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| There has to be more to it than that. I’ve known many pastors who have served on the state youth board and then state council, have pastored faithfully for years and years, who have never been asked to be an overseer. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12798
11/30/23 11:11 pm
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Da Sheik |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | There has to be more to it than that. I’ve known many pastors who have served on the state youth board and then state council, have pastored faithfully for years and years, who have never been asked to be an overseer. |
My post was intended as satire. Becoming an AB is like catching lightning in a bottle. I was outlining the career path of the zealot. We are poisoned with nepotism and politics. Such is the nature of centralized government. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
11/30/23 11:27 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | There has to be more to it than that. I’ve known many pastors who have served on the state youth board and then state council, have pastored faithfully for years and years, who have never been asked to be an overseer. |
There is.
See my number 1 requirement above.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16621
12/1/23 8:36 am
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Link |
| FLRon wrote: | | Da Sheik wrote: | “The process” can be reduced to a singular word. That word would be “politics”. The trajectory of said process is fairly tried and true. To climb the pyramid, one should and must:
1. Become credentialed, licensed, ordained
2. Pastor a church. Pay your dues. Suffer through several bad assignments until being rewarded with a bigger church. (If you are related to someone in state leadership , skip step #2).
3. Spend your summers at youth camp. Do this until you’ve got enough leverage to campaign for state youth board. Network like crazy. Trust the process.
4. Once on youth board, spend lots of time networking with those in state leadership. Perhaps you will be afforded a shot at a legacy church. This is crucial to proceed to step#5.
5. After securing spot at well-known church, you’re in a perfect spot for a seat on the state council. You’re almost there. Trust the process.
6. You now have a seat on the state council. Good things come to those that wait and don’t try to skip in line.
7. Continue to pastor until you no longer want to deal with the day to day grind of ministry. Patience is essential. The never-ending musical chairs of the AB circuit make it difficult to break the glass ceiling.
8. Eventually, an AB will retire or leave a 1-Star region. This will be your one chance - You can do it !
9. Welcome to the Big Leagues Mr. Overseer! Spend the year planning camp meeting. Your biggest daily challenge will be, “where do we go for lunch today ?” Enjoy it! You’ve earned it!!
10. If you don’t have the intestinal fortitude for steps 1-9, marry the daughter of the overseer. |
I have no doubt that this describes the process accurately. What a pity that there is no mention of God being in the works. |
For a role that doesn't really correspond with any kind of ministry role we see in the Bible? |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
12/1/23 2:25 pm
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Da Sheik |
| Link wrote: | | For a role that doesn't really correspond with any kind of ministry role we see in the Bible? |
Well, that’s not exactly accurate. In the Gospels, we see a group of religious figures that bear a striking resemblance.  |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
12/1/23 4:24 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Okay, so if I’m hearing some correctly, centralized govt is the real problem here.
For those who think this way, what do you think would be better? Congregationalist government like Baptists, where primary power resides in a board of deacons? Presbyterian govt, kind of a hybrid between Congregationalist govt and Episcopal/centralized govt? How do you see those forms of church govt working better than centralized/episcopal govt?
I will say I have personally witnessed politics, favoritism and nepotism in all forms of church govt. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12798
12/2/23 1:14 pm
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Da Sheik |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | I will say I have personally witnessed politics, favoritism and nepotism in all forms of church govt. |
No argument here, my friend. Wherever humans are involved, the potential for sin and partiality exists. The real problem is the pyramid. The NT model of government seems to favor a plurality of elders serving local congregations. Layers of overseers is a Roman Catholic idea. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
12/2/23 1:51 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | I will say I have personally witnessed politics, favoritism and nepotism in all forms of church govt. |
No argument here, my friend. Wherever humans are involved, the potential for sin and partiality exists. The real problem is the pyramid. The NT model of government seems to favor a plurality of elders serving local congregations. Layers of overseers is a Roman Catholic idea. |
From my studies of church history, the development of translocal bishops came about in the early second century, with the idea being that having bishops in authority over several churches was the natural outgrowth of the original apostles (who exercised translocal authority over the churches) all having died by then. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches of today claim apostolic succession, with bishops being able to trace their spiritual heritage all the way back to the original apostles as those who instituted their ecclesiastical succession via laying hands on their successors as bishops/overseers of the churches.
That said, just going by the New Testament evidence, there were quite clearly apostles who administered translocal spiritual authority over several congregations at once. It seems that this fact alone lends support to having some kind of translocal leadership in place over local bishops/pastors/elders/churches. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12798
12/2/23 4:13 pm
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Link |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Da Sheik wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | I will say I have personally witnessed politics, favoritism and nepotism in all forms of church govt. |
No argument here, my friend. Wherever humans are involved, the potential for sin and partiality exists. The real problem is the pyramid. The NT model of government seems to favor a plurality of elders serving local congregations. Layers of overseers is a Roman Catholic idea. |
From my studies of church history, the development of translocal bishops came about in the early second century, with the idea being that having bishops in authority over several churches was the natural outgrowth of the original apostles (who exercised translocal authority over the churches) all having died by then. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches of today claim apostolic succession, with bishops being able to trace their spiritual heritage all the way back to the original apostles as those who instituted their ecclesiastical succession via laying hands on their successors as bishops/overseers of the churches.
That said, just going by the New Testament evidence, there were quite clearly apostles who administered translocal spiritual authority over several congregations at once. It seems that this fact alone lends support to having some kind of translocal leadership in place over local bishops/pastors/elders/churches. |
In II Corinthians 10, Paul and his co-workers had a 'measure of rule' that extended to new territories or the people therein where they introduced the Gospel. They hoped to expand their measure into the regions beyond Corinth. Paul considered those foolish who were trying to claim the work of his ministry as their own.
Those they appointed as bishops were apparently local one church, one city, type bishops.
I do not see centralized control from a headquarters in scripture. Paul wrote letters advising the churches. On one occasion, he made a judgment related to church discipline, but corrected the church for not having judges of its own (related to conflict between brothers). The apostles and elders sent letters to other churches regarding what they perceived the Spirit to be saying on the issue of Gentiles being circumcised and compelled to obey the law of Moses.
Last edited by Link on 12/3/23 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
12/3/23 9:16 am
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Link |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | I will say I have personally witnessed politics, favoritism and nepotism in all forms of church govt. |
No argument here, my friend. Wherever humans are involved, the potential for sin and partiality exists. The real problem is the pyramid. The NT model of government seems to favor a plurality of elders serving local congregations. Layers of overseers is a Roman Catholic idea. |
I agree-- a fuzzy mixture of the apostolic role. The apostles were involved in starting churches, and exercised influence over the churches they started. The elders they appointed as bishops pastored local church communities. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
12/3/23 9:18 am
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sheepdogandy |
Congregationally governed Churches is the NT way of operation.
As long as they have government.
Independent Congregations without it falter.
Government children, that's the key component.
Financial transparency, participation in the decision making process, total commitment to the Scriptures is essential.
Been working for us since 1989.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7300
12/3/23 10:33 am
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Cojak |
I NEVER KNEW MUCH ABOUT CHURCH GOVERNMENT FOR YEARS, Most COG member do not. We know the Pastor is in charge of all decisions, most work with a men's council, but evidently a men's council is his decision. I learned awhile back that our pastor did not 'want, like, or consider' a men's council.
I think that worked for years and years, but no more. More and more members want to know where their money goes. I personally started several years ago of giving my tithe to the general fund because our church is not completely transparent. We have large 'catch all' funds on the report. WE are not rich tithe/givers but have considered giving to more open charities or directly to our Children's home, or missionaries we know. etc.
Over the past few years I have had several Baptist Pastors as friends, they seem to have less STRESS than our pastor who feels the whole load on his shoulders. He also does not mind stating that from the pulpit.
I lean toward a more Congregational ruling in my later years. JMHO
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24278
12/3/23 11:33 am
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