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When the rapture does occur...
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Post Da Sheik
Post-tribbers suffer from the same myopia of first century Jews. They only saw one coming of Messiah. The Bible clearly predicted two. One as a suffering Servant, the other a conquering King. The NT clearly teaches different stages of the 2nd coming. One in the clouds and one on the earth. Acts Enthusiast
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7/21/21 7:58 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Historic Premillenialism (the view of the vast majority of the early church fathers prior to Augustine) teaches, in agreement with Scripture, that at Christ’s coming/parousia/arrival, the dead in Christ shall rise first, and then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up to meet Him in the air. Immediately following which, we will accompany Christ down to earth to defeat the enemies of God. Historic Premillenialism (posttrib) very much emphasizes both Christ’s meeting us in the air and then coming down to earth.

The pretrib view is entirely based on inference concerning the suddenness and unexpectedness of Christ’s parousia upon the unbelieving world. Paul says in 1 Thess 5 that believers are not in darkness, that that hour should overtake us as a thief.

The New Testament NOWHERE teaches a secret rapture or two returns of Christ.
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7/21/21 8:58 pm


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Post Da Sheik
Quiet Wyatt wrote:

The New Testament NOWHERE teaches a secret rapture or two returns of Christ.


You're right. It's not a secret. Your use of the phrase "secret rapture" is a strawman argument. You're firmly ensconced in your post-trib views so I won't attempt to convince you otherwise. We can discuss it on the way up if you'd like Razz
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7/22/21 9:27 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
A secret rapture is what those who affirm the pretrib, mid trib, and prewrath theories hold to. To refer to it as what it is, a rapture that is a secret catching away of the saints prior to the explicitly public second coming of the Lord, is by no means a straw man. It is what it is—a secret catching away of the saints separate from and previous to the second coming of Christ.

The one catching away/rapture revealed in Scripture will be at the second coming/parousia/arrival of Christ.

1 Thess 4:15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming (parousia) of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words. NASB95

https://biblehub.com/greek/3952.htm


Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 7/22/21 8:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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7/22/21 10:10 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
As far as my own understanding of this, I was raised all my life in the AG and the CoG. My father, grandfather, and pretty much my entire family for four generations back were all pretrib. I have no doubt they all were and are sincere in their beliefs.

I personally began studying this issue in earnest nearly 30 years ago, and had absolutely no desire or motivation to change my view of the end times. I simply found, when trying to explain or defend the pretrib view, that it had only inference from the concept of perpetual readiness as its basis, while the Historic Premillennial (HP) view, which only has ever taught a singular coming of Christ at His return to earth, had virtually unanimous support from the early church fathers, not to mention the clearest exposition of all the passages relating to the rapture/parousia.

As far as being stubborn in one’s views and unwilling to consider other possibilities, that has definitely not been true in my case at least. I am firm in my view of the end times, to be sure, but it is due to study, not dogmatism as such.

Maranatha!
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7/22/21 10:21 am


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Post Dean Steenburgh
Religion, sports & politics are very much embedded into our social DNA & we're not usually subject to change.
I respect those of you who have alternative views opposing the pre-trib teaching.
However, I feel like I shouldn't attempt to try & sway your opinion using scriptures to prove my point. (you have your convictions & I have mine)
After all, in the end if you love God & believe in your heart that Jesus is your Savior, then by faith we'll all be in heaven.
Tribulation or no tribulation the goal is our eternal home with Christ.
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7/24/21 10:42 pm


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Post Cojak
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
Religion, sports & politics are very much embedded into our social DNA & we're not usually subject to change.
.......
Tribulation or no tribulation the goal is our eternal home with Christ.


Very well said. I do want to say this has been a very good post for us neophytes who only have in our minds years of teaching by good men of God.

I love the last line of the comment. Cool
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8/2/21 3:40 pm


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Post Bro Bob
This has been a pretty decent discussion between the brethren that does remind me of the old days on Acts-celerate. (yay)

Of course all minds will not be joined on this topic, they never have been. Worse, some are like me that see problems with either view, yet lean more or less in one direction or the other. Hence the debate.

I do intend to address some of those things in either one long thing or more likely, several posts with one thought / sub-topic each.

But for the moment, I would like to point out one thing: Each side has a legitimate concern for the brethren (or those putting off becoming a follower) who have not diligently studied the topic.

The Pre-tribbers think it to be a huge mistake for anyone who is an actual believer in Christ to think they can just wait until the obvious signs of the tribulation are happening to make their belief one that governs their actions. Be ready is their advice and warning, it could happen before you finish reading this!

And likewise, the post-tribbers are worried that actual Christians will not have prepared their minds to be steadfast through the worst times ever seen by man.

I would say that no matter your point of view, the concern coming from each side is something ALL of us should be ready for. Regardless your view, be prepared for it either way in case you are wrong.

Blessings

BB
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8/2/21 10:32 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
With regard to the idea that someone could hypothetically just wait until the signs of the great tribulation are upon us, and then get right with God, a couple of important things come to mind:

1. God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that all should be brought to repentance, even those who might turn to Him in faith in the closing days of this present age. It is hard to imagine how someone repenting and believing the gospel, even during the tribulation period, could ever possibly be a bad thing. God surely desires that all should be brought to repentance.

2. The word of God also reveals that in the last days, God will send a strong delusion on those that obey not the gospel, such that they will believe the lie the Antichrist will be proclaiming. In a similar vein, Romans 1 reveals that for those who willfully reject the knowledge of God which is evident in and to all, God lets them go their own way, eventually giving them over to a reprobate mind. So anyone who puts off repentance and faith in Christ runs the very real risk of becoming thoroughly and irredeemably reprobate/depraved because of their unbelief, whether now or in the tribulation period. It is never a good idea for anyone to put off salvation for another time. One never knows how long one has in this life, and light persistently rejected becomes light lost. No one ever has the promise of even one more day to live to choose to follow God’s truth. Today is the day of salvation always.
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8/3/21 7:41 am


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Post Re: When the rapture does occur... Link
roughridercog wrote:
What possible explanation will the rulers and officials who are left give to somehow explain the occurrence, in your opinion?


They will probably be too busy experiencing the vengence of Christ when He comes to give the church rest, and at the same time vengence on them that know not God, according to II Thessalonians 1.
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8/26/21 9:13 am


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