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diakoneo |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | diakoneo wrote: | | Eddie Robbins wrote: | | The irony here is that Scot was not a minister and not elected. This is exactly they type person that many thought we needed to help administer the COG. The bottom line is that people are people regardless. Elected, not elected, preacher or not, there is no guarantee that you won't have problems. It is pretty easy to sit on the couch and write about how it should be. Me included. |
Yes. And how exactly did he come to retain such a position in the Church of God. That is the problem. |
Agreed.
Was he really more skillful - or was he related to someone?
Was he already in Cleveland - which made him apparently seem smarter than those from California - because when we hire the "best and brightest" at HQ - they always seem to already live in Cleveland. Amazing.
I sure don't remember an open position advertised (with starting salary) in any publication of the Church? |
When a Communications Director position is open, we ought to go into a legitimate search to land the best person possible.
When a pastoral position is open, we ought to go into a legitimate search to land the best person possible.
When we are hiring Administrative Bishops, we ought to go into a legitimate search to land the best people possible.
When we are electing the Executive Committee or the C18, we ought to go into a legitimate search to land the best people possible.
Our reality is that we have a closed loop process for hiring.
Pastoral openings are not advertised. Selection of pastors is relational. We advance safety. And, generally, we make the most conservative moves or most relational moves possible as it pertains to pastoral leadership.
The EC and C18 are selected based on name recognition, a process too heavily influenced by invitations to speak at camp meetings. Those invitations are extended by Administrative Bishops who are appointed by the EC. This is possibly the most closed loop in our fellowship. Sometimes, people break into the loop. But, largely, this is a small group of people.
We ought to, at the very least, have some sort of position paper/vision paper published by each potential leader. Don't we want to select leaders based on where they want to take us? Why would we leave this information out of the equation when asking God to help us in deploying effective, godly leaders to help us navigate the Great Commission as a denominational family?
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Travis, that is very good stuff there my brother!
I liked this part especially:
| Quote: | | We ought to, at the very least, have some sort of position paper/vision paper published by each potential leader. Don't we want to select leaders based on where they want to take us? Why would we leave this information out of the equation when asking God to help us in deploying effective, godly leaders to help us navigate the Great Commission as a denominational family? |
This would be to many as being "campaigning"...a dirty word in church circles, but I think necessary here in the way you have laid it out.
It seems some folks don't want to say they want a position in Cleveland, when they do. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
8/18/15 12:24 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
1 Timothy 3:1 seems to say that it is a good thing for someone to desire the office of bishop or overseer. I know, it's not the same but the point is, get it out in the open. Seek the position and submit a resume. Travis is right in the money here. How you make it happen is the greater challenge.
Last edited by Eddie Robbins on 8/20/15 1:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
8/18/15 12:50 pm
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diakoneo |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | 1 Timothy 3:1 seems to say that it is a good thing for someone to desire the office of bishop or overseer. I know,mits not the same but the point is, get it out in the open. Seek the position and submit a resume. Travis is right in the money here. How you make it happen is the greater challenge. |
There needs to be a change.
What Travis is proposing would be deemed "unspiritual" by many.
The reality is it is going on anyway, but it is much messier than I believe a "mild" campaign would be. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
8/18/15 1:08 pm
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| all very good ideas but nothing will change |
muricewatsonsfriend |
This is reality.
[/code] |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 733
8/19/15 9:12 pm
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| Re: all very good ideas but nothing will change |
Travis Johnson |
| muricewatsonsfriend wrote: | This is reality.
[/code] |
Things change. They have changed. Things will continue to change. Over the past handful of General Assemblies, the GA mandated:
1. That the TOT be cut from 15% to 10%.
2. That proceeds from defunct properties less expenses be spent only on church planting and church assistance.
3. That financials be disclosed via the ministerial portal.
4. That Executive Council deliberations be disclosed via the ministerial portal.
There is reason to believe that we can change because we have. We can continue. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
8/19/15 9:31 pm
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Cojak |
| caveator wrote: | | I didn't say that those were my choices or preference. I've simply been around long enough to know how things work. If I were a betting man, I would make a fortune on that bet. There will be a lot of dialogue, but that will be the new Executive Committee. I guarantee it. |
I haven't been at a GA in 50 years, but back then you could predict who was going in. Yeah, it probably hasn't changed. I remember my district Overseer telling me, we are voting for xxxxxx, this year, I assume you are with us....
Of course I was with them, who ever 'them' was.  He didn't even know I wasn't Ordained at the time. 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24285
8/19/15 10:46 pm
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| Travis, here's my take on your optimism |
muricewatsonsfriend |
1. [i]That the TOT be cut from 15% to 10%.[/i] - when you challenged the church on the misuse of the 2.5% EHM funds it morphed into this. i totally agreed that the misuse of the 2.5% needed to be addressed, but in the end we all lost. the decrease in what we send in has resulted in LESS resourcing to the local church.
We now have less than 20 states/regions that have full time YD's. many staff were laid off, and it looks like we cut fat, when really we eliminated people that do the leg work.
now many COG churches are convinced that they don't need state office, general office, etc. maybe we don't, but the cut has proven to be ineffective.
2. That proceeds from defunct properties less expenses be spent only on church planting and church assistance.
is this working in your state? i know its the official position, but its not happening in other states.
3. That financials be disclosed via the ministerial portal.
agreed.
4. That Executive Council deliberations be disclosed via the ministerial portal.
agreed.
There is reason to believe that we can change because we have. We can continue
God bless,
Darius |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 733
8/20/15 12:10 pm
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| Re: Travis, here's my take on your optimism |
Travis Johnson |
| muricewatsonsfriend wrote: | 1. That the TOT be cut from 15% to 10%. - when you challenged the church on the misuse of the 2.5% EHM funds it morphed into this. i totally agreed that the misuse of the 2.5% needed to be addressed, but in the end we all lost. the decrease in what we send in has resulted in LESS resourcing to the local church.
We now have less than 20 states/regions that have full time YD's. many staff were laid off, and it looks like we cut fat, when really we eliminated people that do the leg work.
now many COG churches are convinced that they don't need state office, general office, etc. maybe we don't, but the cut has proven to be ineffective.
2. That proceeds from defunct properties less expenses be spent only on church planting and church assistance.
is this working in your state? i know its the official position, but its not happening in other states.
3. That financials be disclosed via the ministerial portal.
agreed.
4. That Executive Council deliberations be disclosed via the ministerial portal.
agreed.
There is reason to believe that we can change because we have. We can continue
God bless,
Darius |
Darius,
I was only addressing the sentiment that we can't change. I think we've both agreed that we can.
I'll circle back with a response to your editorial in the next post. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
8/20/15 12:57 pm
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| Re: Travis, here's my take on your optimism |
Travis Johnson |
| muricewatsonsfriend wrote: | 1. That the TOT be cut from 15% to 10%. - when you challenged the church on the misuse of the 2.5% EHM funds it morphed into this. i totally agreed that the misuse of the 2.5% needed to be addressed, but in the end we all lost. the decrease in what we send in has resulted in LESS resourcing to the local church.
We now have less than 20 states/regions that have full time YD's. many staff were laid off, and it looks like we cut fat, when really we eliminated people that do the leg work.
now many COG churches are convinced that they don't need state office, general office, etc. maybe we don't, but the cut has proven to be ineffective. |
I am not convinced our regions have been consolidated enough. Let's combine mission states so that we don't have multiple struggling states and regions. Out west and in the mid-west, it doesn't matter how few states we have, churches are a long way from one another. So, let's resource fewer state/regional leaders better by eliminating redundancy further.
There are plenty of ways to do this. Across the board cuts aren't beneficial in my mind. We need some strategic wholesale elimination of stuff. We need to stop doing some of our nice-to-haves and start doing more of our must-haves.
Has the cut been effective? Yes. FL COG had too many employees. International Offices had too many people. We needed fewer. Was it painful? Yes. I have friends and people I love get shuffled around. It wasn't fun to watch.
NOW, PLEASE READ THIS IF YOU READ ANYTHING: The only reason anyone in any state office lost a job is because that particular state office was using designated church planting money for administrative overhead. That isn't something people like to hear. But, that is 100% truth. The only piece that was eliminated at the state office level was the 2.5% EHM fund (church planting mandate). This pain felt is proof that we were not being faithful stewards of the EHM money.
The ideal scenario was for that problem to have been acknowledged and changed. There was an abundance of first-person and private conversations and a prolonged public conversation with opportunity for that. It was not taken. So, the GA stopped the abuse. Ideally, we would have restored ourselves. We would have aligned our words and deeds. We didn't. So, God took the talents from the unfaithful servant and gave it to another servant.
Had we made adjustments, we would be spending a great deal on church planting annually.
Of course, if we don't like how those monies were cut in retrospect, we should take that up with the Committee of Action. They made the decision to eliminate 100% of the Home Missions mandate and 50% of the World Missions mandate. That is not what the General Assembly asked for. But, when we empowered the Committee of Action, that's what we got.
It was not ineffective. It was also not ideal. But, It was very effective.
| Quote: | 2. That proceeds from defunct properties less expenses be spent only on church planting and church assistance.
is this working in your state? i know its the official position, but its not happening in other states. |
Again, we find ourselves potentially in an identical scenario as the TOT Cut. IF we are unfaithful to the General Assembly, we are showing a lack of integrity and trustworthiness. The Lord will not honor that.
If that is happening in your state, lean into it. The General Assembly very recently spoke with clarity on this. And, if there is someone being insubordinate to the General Assembly, they need to be informed of that. They may not even know they are doing it. Of course, if they do know and go on doing that, we are redigging a hole for ourselves. We don't need to go there.
| Quote: | 3. That financials be disclosed via the ministerial portal.
agreed. |
When we were making moves on this on the floor of the GA, something happened that looking back, I have grown to appreciate a good bit.
I submitted this motion to the Executive Council. If I remember correctly, the year that it passed, the EC included it in their General Assembly agenda. I believe there had been very healthy and beneficial conversation and momentum building for it. The item had previously made it to the floor from the motions committee at the GA. The first time that happened, it failed by a handful of votes...maybe only a dozen.
The first time it did, Tommy Propes approached me. He said that it is a good thing for the COG to be transparent with our financials. And, without getting into the particulars, he said something along the lines of "whether we mandate this or not, we need to do it." Of course, there were a number of people that worked to turn that ship. But, in my mind, Tommy Propes did a lot to make sure there was more disclosure on our financials.
I do think we ought to give more detail. Obviously, the more we disclose, the less likely we are to have $1 million embezzled. The more we disclose, the more likely we are to be on mission. We'll be graded by our people. We'll get more effective.
| Quote: | 4. That Executive Council deliberations be disclosed via the ministerial portal.
agreed. |
The moment we start writing the names of Executive Council members and how they voted next to proposed agenda items the better. This move will not only ensure that we weed out protectors of status quo and reward people who are on mission with our trust and vote. It will also preserve us against a slide into a liberalizing of doctrine.
I'm glad for our very stout moves towards transparency. I hope we just go for it and get enthused about involving our larger fellowship in shaping who we will be tomorrow.
Much love to you, amigo...miss seeing your face in FL! |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
8/20/15 1:27 pm
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| New General Overseer |
Wayne1 |
GO Tim Hill
1st asst. Raymond Culpepper
2nd asst. Thomas Propes
3rd asst. Mitch Corder
Gen Sec John Childres |
New Member
Posts: 22
8/24/15 6:31 pm
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| Present, past and new |
spartanfan |
| There are so many great guys - present, past and new to consider. The CoG is in great hands for the future! |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
8/24/15 7:05 pm
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| Re: all very good ideas but nothing will change |
deltaman |
[quote="Travis Johnson"] | muricewatsonsfriend wrote: | This is reality.
[/code] |
Things change. They have changed. Things will continue to change. Over the past handful of General Assemblies, the GA mandated:
1. That the TOT be cut from 15% to 10%.
2. That proceeds from defunct properties less expenses be spent only on church planting and church assistance.
3. That financials be disclosed via the ministerial portal.
4. That Executive Council deliberations be disclosed via the ministerial portal.
There is reason to believe that we can change because we have. We can continue.[/quote
you are right about change, and I agree something should be done to inform the bishops about who the candidates are and what they have done or how they voted in past. We need pro active, sensitive men of God, with servant mentality, who move in the Spirit and do not fear men, not entertainers, popular good ole boys who tell funny stories, or men who we feel obligated to because they have paid their dues. paying dues and being around for a long time is a sign of perseverance and not necessarily an anointing to be a leader. |
Member
Posts: 40
8/27/15 1:31 am
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| i submitted a plan a few years ago |
muricewatsonsfriend |
i submitted a plan a few years back to the C18/EC that would essentially create a "pool" of leaders to draw from. systemically, we are told from the day we become OBwan that we can ALL be the GO.
even though this is practically impossible, there are five spots that we all aspire to...because it is systemically placed upon us with the laying on of hands.
basically, the alternative plan is this:
1. announce that we are creating a leadership pool. any OB that wishes to serve will submit a resume to the C18/EC. this would be for all appointed and elected positions.
2. the C18/EC culls through the resumes and determines how many elected and appointed positions will be filled for (some prescribed amount of time. maybe 5 years.)
3. identify the pool of names and submit those names to the GC agenda
4. vote on those names as a WHOLE and then that elected body makes the appointments.
example: 800 names are submitted to the leadership pool. we have 200 slots to fill. the GC / GA elects 200 leaders and the last job of the outgoing C18/EC is to appoint the new leadership by the end of the week.
Darius |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 733
8/29/15 9:37 am
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patrick_henry |
Do we pick our leaders based on the idea that "it is their turn " Or it is the best leader for the COG.
I would vote for Raymond Culpepper again |
New Member
Posts: 13
8/29/15 2:09 pm
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