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 Are there MORAL/BEHAVIORAL standards for Christians? |
Aaron Scott |
If the pendulum can swing too far by having so many rules and regulations, can it swing too far the other way by having none?
Does being a Christian REQUIRE anything more than believing on Jesus? For an extreme scenario, can a person be a Christian, yet PRACTICE lying, adultery, fornication, killing, etc.?
Is there any point where we could legitimately say, "Your actions demonstrate that you are not a Christian?
If not, then is there any practical way (outside of discerning it spiritually) that we can detect whether a person is a Christian?
If James said that he would show his faith BY his works...isn't that some sign that there will be a practical demonstration of our faith in our lifestyle?
If our Christianity has no effect on our behavior, then it has no practical value, right?
Here's a way to start our discussion: Fill in the blank and add it to our list:
"A true Christian will (will not) __________________________." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
5/29/15 7:51 am
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Eddie Robbins |
| It's simple. Mark 12:30-31 |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
5/29/15 8:33 am
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| Eddie... |
Aaron Scott |
And how would you know if a person WERE living that way?
Doesn't that same Bible say that "by their fruits you will know them?"
What fruits?
The Fruit of the Spirit? Fine...but how do these things manifest in the real-world? That is, is love just a feeling...or does it cause us to ACT in certain ways? How do we detect "long-suffering"?
You get the idea.
BTW, you brother-in-law, Stephen, did a GREAT JOB at the church I pastor a few weeks back. We plan to make it an annual thing. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
5/29/15 9:17 am
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| Re: Are there MORAL/BEHAVIORAL standards for Christians? |
bradfreeman |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | If the pendulum can swing too far by having so many rules and regulations, can it swing too far the other way by having none?
Does being a Christian REQUIRE anything more than believing on Jesus? For an extreme scenario, can a person be a Christian, yet PRACTICE lying, adultery, fornication, killing, etc.?
Is there any point where we could legitimately say, "Your actions demonstrate that you are not a Christian?
If not, then is there any practical way (outside of discerning it spiritually) that we can detect whether a person is a Christian?
If James said that he would show his faith BY his works...isn't that some sign that there will be a practical demonstration of our faith in our lifestyle?
If our Christianity has no effect on our behavior, then it has no practical value, right?
Here's a way to start our discussion: Fill in the blank and add it to our list:
"A true Christian will (will not) __________________________." |
What moral/behavioral standards did God impose on Adam?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/29/15 9:41 am
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| A true Christian will not keep on sinning... |
Quiet Wyatt |
| No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:6-10 ESV |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
5/29/15 9:44 am
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| Re: Are there MORAL/BEHAVIORAL standards for Christians? |
Nature Boy Florida |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | If the pendulum can swing too far by having so many rules and regulations, can it swing too far the other way by having none?
Does being a Christian REQUIRE anything more than believing on Jesus? For an extreme scenario, can a person be a Christian, yet PRACTICE lying, adultery, fornication, killing, etc.?
Is there any point where we could legitimately say, "Your actions demonstrate that you are not a Christian?
If not, then is there any practical way (outside of discerning it spiritually) that we can detect whether a person is a Christian?
If James said that he would show his faith BY his works...isn't that some sign that there will be a practical demonstration of our faith in our lifestyle?
If our Christianity has no effect on our behavior, then it has no practical value, right?
Here's a way to start our discussion: Fill in the blank and add it to our list:
"A true Christian will (will not) __________________________." |
What moral/behavioral standards did God impose on Adam? |
Maybe we don't know.
Cain killed Abel - did God believe it was morally wrong or ok?
Did Abel's blood think it was ok?
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
5/29/15 10:19 am
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| Re: Are there MORAL/BEHAVIORAL standards for Christians? |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| "A true Christian will (will not) watch, listen to or read stuff from hyper-woffie or hyper-grace proponents--even here on Acts." |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/29/15 12:04 pm
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| Re: A true Christian will not keep on sinning... |
bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:6-10 ESV |
1 John 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
Do you practice lawlessness?
Do you regularly break the law concerning the Sabbath?
What is the difference between "practice righteousness" and "love his brother"?
Wouldn't practicing righteousness include loving your brother?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/29/15 12:41 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Sin is lawlessness. Those who abide in Him do not practice lawlessness/sin.
Sabbath keeping is not a New Covenant requirement. Christ is our Sabbath rest.
Yes, loving one's brother is certainly a major part of the New Covenant law of love. There is no practicing righteousness that excludes loving God supremely and one's neighbor as oneself. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
5/29/15 12:54 pm
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| Re: Are there MORAL/BEHAVIORAL standards for Christians? |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | If the pendulum can swing too far by having so many rules and regulations, can it swing too far the other way by having none?
Does being a Christian REQUIRE anything more than believing on Jesus? For an extreme scenario, can a person be a Christian, yet PRACTICE lying, adultery, fornication, killing, etc.?
Is there any point where we could legitimately say, "Your actions demonstrate that you are not a Christian?
If not, then is there any practical way (outside of discerning it spiritually) that we can detect whether a person is a Christian?
If James said that he would show his faith BY his works...isn't that some sign that there will be a practical demonstration of our faith in our lifestyle?
If our Christianity has no effect on our behavior, then it has no practical value, right?
Here's a way to start our discussion: Fill in the blank and add it to our list:
"A true Christian will (will not) __________________________." |
Aaron,
Glad to see you are treated the same as I was.
You ask a good question - and Brad pipes in with his inane Sabbath breaking comment - which has nothing to do with this thread.
Doyle has let his board become a joke.
Very sad.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
5/29/15 1:56 pm
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philunderwood |
So GOOD! So, yes, there is a standard... LOVE PEOPLE!! If you do anything less it is compliance, but not transformational. ANYONE who would suggest licentiousness is the rule is foolish...but Jesus sums it up in Eddie's post.
_________________
Live an epiK life!
Discover More...
http://www.refocusing.org
A Mission in Formation
www.bluewaterinthekeys.com |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3954
5/29/15 2:04 pm
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| Re: Are there MORAL/BEHAVIORAL standards for Christians? |
philunderwood |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | If the pendulum can swing too far by having so many rules and regulations, can it swing too far the other way by having none?
Does being a Christian REQUIRE anything more than believing on Jesus? For an extreme scenario, can a person be a Christian, yet PRACTICE lying, adultery, fornication, killing, etc.?
Is there any point where we could legitimately say, "Your actions demonstrate that you are not a Christian?
If not, then is there any practical way (outside of discerning it spiritually) that we can detect whether a person is a Christian?
If James said that he would show his faith BY his works...isn't that some sign that there will be a practical demonstration of our faith in our lifestyle?
If our Christianity has no effect on our behavior, then it has no practical value, right?
Here's a way to start our discussion: Fill in the blank and add it to our list:
"A true Christian will (will not) __________________________." |
Aaron, this is NOT the question!!! There is no pendulum swing suggested here to lawlessness....or the absence of regulation. The law is to LOVE GOD and LOVE PEOPLE...what law is broken in that scenario?
This is the argument of legalism....what rules do we need to keep to keep people in check, righteous, accepted and untainted. It falls so far short and it is why the church is such a powerless institution. I struggle with not having to put myself under such bondage every day. We were ingrained in this craziness and it is hard to divest ourselves of. I see the light, but living in the light is another step for me. I have such high hopes for us all, though, that we escape the destruction that is in the world through lust. But rules and compliance have NO POWER against the lust.
I am so saddened that New Covenant people such as ourselves are so caught up in drawing boundaries when The Father/Jesus/Holy Spirit was so explicitly clear. No one who takes advantage of another, denigrates another, steals from another or brings ruination to their own life is a disciple. Being Jesus' body, family and presence in the earth is a calling to a higher plane of living, beyond rules to righteous purpose. I do not need a law once I am past tutoring stage. I see the law, I understand the law, I respect the purpose and presence of the law...but I no longer need the law because it is not the center point of my life. Jesus is. I live to emulate Him...that is enough to be common sense I cannot love and serve myself or my lust. The law does not master me, Jesus does.
_________________
Live an epiK life!
Discover More...
http://www.refocusing.org
A Mission in Formation
www.bluewaterinthekeys.com |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3954
5/29/15 2:20 pm
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| Re: Are there MORAL/BEHAVIORAL standards for Christians? |
c6thplayer1 |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | If the pendulum can swing too far by having so many rules and regulations, can it swing too far the other way by having none?
Does being a Christian REQUIRE anything more than believing on Jesus? For an extreme scenario, can a person be a Christian, yet PRACTICE lying, adultery, fornication, killing, etc.?
Is there any point where we could legitimately say, "Your actions demonstrate that you are not a Christian?
If not, then is there any practical way (outside of discerning it spiritually) that we can detect whether a person is a Christian?
If James said that he would show his faith BY his works...isn't that some sign that there will be a practical demonstration of our faith in our lifestyle?
If our Christianity has no effect on our behavior, then it has no practical value, right?
Here's a way to start our discussion: Fill in the blank and add it to our list:
"A true Christian will (will not) __________________________." |
I dont want to be a broken spoke but when you say "A true Christian will (will not) __________________________." Kind of puts his/her great works ahead of everything else. Very very argumentative. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
5/29/15 4:38 pm
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| Some thoughts... |
Aaron Scott |
What did God require of Adam?
Obedience. That obedience was aligned with NOT eating of a certain tree.
I know many mean well when they speak of love, etc....but consider this: A man is coming to your church to preach. You find out he is living in adultery. Yet he claims to love the Lord, etc. Shoot, he even tells you that his wife is good with it all.
You wouldn't allow it.
Why? Because even if you take the more radical approach that our Brother Brad takes, you would at some point claim that this man is clearly NOT living in love, or not living for the Lord. And you would know that...how? Certainly not by his words.
By his actions.
Very simply, if you are a true follower of Jesus you will seek to flee youthful lusts...you will seek to abstain from the very appearance of evil...you will eat no meat if it causes your brother to offend.
At least that's the BEST I know how to do it.
I went through a season of accepting that maybe God did some things differently now days. That maybe that person who played fast and loose with the world was really a prophet, etc.
But finally, after being burned a few times, I decided that, as for me, I'm going to look for folks who lived it like some our our ancestors did. I'm not talking about dress codes...but the fact that for them it MATTERED how we live, how we present ourselves to the world, that we remember we represent a Great Savior, etc.
Just my thoughts.... |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
5/29/15 9:41 pm
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c6thplayer1 |
| Quote: | | Very simply, if you are a true follower of Jesus you will seek to flee youthful lusts...you will seek to abstain from the very appearance of evil |
Now this is solid and very well put. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
5/29/15 9:48 pm
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philunderwood |
Aaron, it absolutely matters how we live!! But the standard has to be, never can be anything other than, Jesus' life, love and passion. You can give a rule about any and every sin and it be kept...but still miss Jesus.
On the other hand, lift Jesus, show Jesus, study Jesus, walk in the way of Jesus and no "law" will be broken. In fact, as is stated, we will die to the law.
Paul is our best teacher to this end....
There is, I think, a fair analogy here. The death of Christ on the cross had made you "dead" to the claims of the Law, and you are free to give yourselves in marriage, so to speak, to another, the one who was raised from the dead, that you may be productive for God.
While we were "in the flesh" the Law stimulated our sinful passions and so worked in our nature that we became productive - for death! But now that we stand clear of the Law, the claims which existed are dissolved by our "death", and we are free to serve God not in the old obedience to the letter of the Law, but in a new way, in the spirit.
_________________
Live an epiK life!
Discover More...
http://www.refocusing.org
A Mission in Formation
www.bluewaterinthekeys.com |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3954
5/29/15 11:50 pm
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| Re: Some thoughts... |
bradfreeman |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | What did God require of Adam?
Obedience. That obedience was aligned with NOT eating of a certain tree |
Aaron, the obedience was to remain unconcerned with "Good and Evil".
Adam didn't have to do anything to be in God's likeness and image - he was created that way.
Adam didn't have to do anything to fellowship with God - he was enjoying God's fellowship.
What was the lie that Satan told? The lie was that this knowledge would not kill, but make Adam "like God" or godly.
"You surely will not die."
The truth: Adam was already like God, created in His likeness and image. He didn't need to do anything to be like God. Satan convinced him he needed to do something more.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/30/15 6:32 am
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| Brad... |
Aaron Scott |
The question stands: If someone CLAIMS to be a Christian, on what grounds would you NOT have them at your church?
Some wouldn't have them if they smoke (sorry Spurgeon...and C.S. Lewis).
Some wouldn't have them if they wear jewelry (sorry ever televangelist female of the last 20 years).
But while some might overlook that, would any overlook adultery? fornication? lying? stealing? You get the idea.
WOULD YOU overlook that? Would YOU just accept that God has saved them and refuse to hold them to any standard of behavior.
And if you DO hold them to some standard...on what grounds do you apparently do what God doesn't do?
Not trying to be argumentative, but sincerely want to understand where you stand. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
5/30/15 1:39 pm
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| Re: Brad... |
bradfreeman |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | The question stands: If someone CLAIMS to be a Christian, on what grounds would you NOT have them at your church?
Some wouldn't have them if they smoke (sorry Spurgeon...and C.S. Lewis).
Some wouldn't have them if they wear jewelry (sorry ever televangelist female of the last 20 years).
But while some might overlook that, would any overlook adultery? fornication? lying? stealing? You get the idea.
WOULD YOU overlook that? Would YOU just accept that God has saved them and refuse to hold them to any standard of behavior.
And if you DO hold them to some standard...on what grounds do you apparently do what God doesn't do?
Not trying to be argumentative, but sincerely want to understand where you stand. |
You've asked a better question here than at the outset.
What kind of behavior gets you put out of church. The answer: EXTREME
In 1 Cor. 1 Paul establishes that the weak and foolish can rest in the knowledge that it is by Gods doing that we are in Christ, who has become for us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.
Who did he say this to?
A group with a guy sleeping with his step mother.
A group suing each other, sleeping with prostitutes (Paul told these guys that God lived in them while they were involved in the behavior - 1 Cor 6:15-20), getting drunk at communion (this would DQ you from the COG) and trying to out-tongue each other.
The only guy Paul put out was the guy who slept with his step mother-and Paul expected his spirit to be saved and let him back in (2 Cor 2:5-11).
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/30/15 6:51 pm
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| Brad.... |
Aaron Scott |
I hear you.
And you know that I love and admire you. Further, I am convinced that you have a message for us...and that is that God's grace is deeper, wider, and more vast than we know.
We ought to give heed to that.
At the same time, there is a problem with OSAS...which is the natural destination of your particular take....
| Quote: | | (Revelation 3:5 KJV) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels |
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Jesus is speaking to the church.
Further, He is speaking to those whose names DO appear in the Book of Life.
And yet it apparently is DEPENDENT on being an overcomer!
Would He even make such a statement if it was impossible that He would do it?
| Quote: | (2 Peter 2:20 KJV) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(2 Peter 2:21 KJV) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(2 Peter 2:22 KJV) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. |
Consider that the latter end of NOT KNOWING CHRIST AT ALL...is to go to hell.
If we are again entangled, it is EVEN WORSE than going to hell.
There is no way for that to make sense in any universe where are person actually goes to heaven--for that would mean that heaven was worse than hell!
But Peter says that it HAS HAPPENED.
| Quote: | | (Revelation 21:8 KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. |
I can see a way around some of these things. You might argue that SOME of the fearful...SOME of the abominable, etc....but we are stopped at the fact that ALL LIARS shall have their part in the Lake of Fire.
So that means that a Christian CANNOT be a liar, right? (I do not mean that one has never lied...but that one practices lying.)
OK, I know the way around this. You can claim that God does not impute sin, etc. Fine. But if you are a liar, whether sin is imputed or not, you are a liar...and ALL LIARS shall have their part in the Lake of Fire.
As much as I believe that grace is indeed richer and deeper than we have imagined--and we should preach that, so that dear souls are not left in guilt and condemnation--I also cannot escape the fact that, at least for me, there is simply no way around the fact that SOME BELIEVERS have fallen away. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
5/30/15 7:13 pm
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