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John Stevenson |
First off, I am a jew. When your great grandfather's name is Abraham Shubotis you're probably jewish.
Also you keep stating that there was no tithe on money. That's because in Bible times those items which they tithed on were as good as money. So your hermeneutics don't add up either. No matter what the tithe was the fact remains that it was of value.
Nobody has yet to answer my question as to when heaven and earth passed away? Jesus said that He didn't come to destroy (which means do away with) but to fulfill the law (which means to bring to completion). Let me explain, if you have a deck on your house and you destroy it...it's gone. But if you have a deck that doesn't have steps, no railings, maybe it needs stained and somebody comes and completes the deck.....well the deck is still there isn't it?
What your saying is that Jesus did away with the law. He never said that. He expounded on the law. He said if you look at a woman in lust you've committed the same sin as adultery. Jesus was trying to teach them that they shouldn't be satisfied with just living by the letter of the law but the they should live by the spirit of the law. So if the law required 10% how much more should we give?
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Acts-celerater
Posts: 671
5/27/14 8:32 am
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John Stevenson |
The Bible also says to whom much is given much is required. So we that have been given freedom, liberty and grace abundantly shouldn't be arguing against tithing but we should see tithing as the least we can do for all that has been for us.
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Acts-celerater
Posts: 671
5/27/14 8:57 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| It ultimately comes down to whether or not the covenant God gave to the people of Israel through Moses was ever given to Gentiles, and whether the Old Covenant is still in effect even for those of Jewish descent. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
5/27/14 9:48 am
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Randy Johnson |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | It ultimately comes down to whether or not the covenant God gave to the people of Israel through Moses was ever given to Gentiles, and whether the Old Covenant is still in effect even for those of Jewish descent. |
The answer to both questions is no.
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Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5431
5/27/14 12:07 pm
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| Randy... |
wayne |
| were Corinthians, thessalonians, romans, etc. written to us. does these scriptures pertain to us? If your answer is yes, how? In the beginning of these books, the writer clearly states they are writtent to the church at..... |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
5/27/14 1:00 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | It ultimately comes down to whether or not the covenant God gave to the people of Israel through Moses was ever given to Gentiles, and whether the Old Covenant is still in effect even for those of Jewish descent. |
The answer to both questions is no. |
I agree. It is hard to imagine why anyone relatively familiar with the New Testament would not know this. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
5/27/14 1:19 pm
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John Stevenson |
Wayne makes a good point. Using your argument you can say that nothing in the Bible pertains to us today because nothing is written specifically to citizens of the United States. Again...bad hermeneutics. Why? Because all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...... So to say that certain scriptures or portions of the Bible are null and void just doesn't line up with scripture.
And still nobody has answered me...when did heaven and earth pass away? And yes, I have asked this several times already.
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Acts-celerater
Posts: 671
5/28/14 12:20 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| John Stevenson wrote: | Wayne makes a good point. Using your argument you can say that nothing in the Bible pertains to us today because nothing is written specifically to citizens of the United States. Again...bad hermeneutics. Why? Because all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...... So to say that certain scriptures or portions of the Bible are null and void just doesn't line up with scripture.
And still nobody has answered me...when did heaven and earth pass away? And yes, I have asked this several times already. |
It's bad hermeneutics to interpret what he said to mean nothing in the Bible pertains to us today because nothing is written specifically to citizens of the United States.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/28/14 5:02 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| John Stevenson wrote: | First off, I am a jew. When your great grandfather's name is Abraham Shubotis you're probably jewish.
Also you keep stating that there was no tithe on money. That's because in Bible times those items which they tithed on were as good as money. So your hermeneutics don't add up either. No matter what the tithe was the fact remains that it was of value.
Nobody has yet to answer my question as to when heaven and earth passed away? Jesus said that He didn't come to destroy (which means do away with) but to fulfill the law (which means to bring to completion). Let me explain, if you have a deck on your house and you destroy it...it's gone. But if you have a deck that doesn't have steps, no railings, maybe it needs stained and somebody comes and completes the deck.....well the deck is still there isn't it?
What your saying is that Jesus did away with the law. He never said that. He expounded on the law. He said if you look at a woman in lust you've committed the same sin as adultery. Jesus was trying to teach them that they shouldn't be satisfied with just living by the letter of the law but the they should live by the spirit of the law. So if the law required 10% how much more should we give? |
The Apostles were wrong according to you...
| Quote: |
The Council at Jerusalem
15 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”
2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad.
4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?
11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.
13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me.
14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles.
15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16 “‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’[b]—
18 things known from long ago.[c]
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers
22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers.
23 With them they sent the following letter:
The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings.
24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.
25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul—
26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing.
28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:
29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell. |
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/28/14 5:14 am
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John Stevenson |
Nope! And first if you read you'll see that this was not just the apostles but the church elders also that came to this conclusion.
Circumcision did 2 things:
1. Circumcision identified a person as in the covenant. Your circumcision showed that God’s promise was for you and placed upon you the duty of trusting God.
2. Circumcision was a warning about breaking the covenant. The message of circumcision was that if you rejected God, did not trust Him, did not live with an obedient faith, you would be cut off and the promise would not be yours.
I thought I already addressed this but I'll take a stab at it again. Circumcision was an act that carried a spiritual principle. The problem was that many people were living by the letter of the Law and not by the "heart" or principle of the Law. This actually started way before the New Testament. If you look back in Psalm 51, David says to God "it's not a sacrifice that you desire or I would give it to You". David wasn't saying that the Law of sacrificing animals was null and void. What was happening was people would sin and instead of being sorrowful for their sin their attitude was "i'll just bring a sacrifice to the altar and it'll be alright". God wants more than that! David understood this and that is why he was a man that was after God's own heart.
So although we don't have to practice actual circumcisions today, the "heart" or the principle still remains. We are people of covenant and our actions should reflect that. If our actions don't reflect that then we're cut-off by God.
The problem in Acts 15 was that some were trying to tie the actually act of circumcision to salvation. It's like this the principle of an innocent lamb dying for our sins still stands but we don't have to actually kill an innocent lamb anymore because the Lamb of God died for our sins. But although He died for everyone's sins not everyone will be saved unless they accept (the Bible says believes) the "principle" that Jesus is the Lamb of God.
Tithing is not required for salvation just as circumcision is not required for salvation. But the principle of tithing still remains.
_________________
www.bwcuhrichsville.org |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 671
5/28/14 8:02 am
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Tracy S Hamilton |
| John Stevenson wrote: | Nope! And first if you read you'll see that this was not just the apostles but the church elders also that came to this conclusion.
Circumcision did 2 things:
1. Circumcision identified a person as in the covenant. Your circumcision showed that God’s promise was for you and placed upon you the duty of trusting God.
2. Circumcision was a warning about breaking the covenant. The message of circumcision was that if you rejected God, did not trust Him, did not live with an obedient faith, you would be cut off and the promise would not be yours.
I thought I already addressed this but I'll take a stab at it again. Circumcision was an act that carried a spiritual principle. The problem was that many people were living by the letter of the Law and not by the "heart" or principle of the Law. This actually started way before the New Testament. If you look back in Psalm 51, David says to God "it's not a sacrifice that you desire or I would give it to You". David wasn't saying that the Law of sacrificing animals was null and void. What was happening was people would sin and instead of being sorrowful for their sin their attitude was "i'll just bring a sacrifice to the altar and it'll be alright". God wants more than that! David understood this and that is why he was a man that was after God's own heart.
So although we don't have to practice actual circumcisions today, the "heart" or the principle still remains. We are people of covenant and our actions should reflect that. If our actions don't reflect that then we're cut-off by God.
The problem in Acts 15 was that some were trying to tie the actually act of circumcision to salvation. It's like this the principle of an innocent lamb dying for our sins still stands but we don't have to actually kill an innocent lamb anymore because the Lamb of God died for our sins. But although He died for everyone's sins not everyone will be saved unless they accept (the Bible says believes) the "principle" that Jesus is the Lamb of God.
Tithing is not required for salvation just as circumcision is not required for salvation. But the principle of tithing still remains. |
Agree! This is a principle that that is still applicable for today, as there are many things in scripture that will not negate your salvation, but nonetheless, is still a principle.
Tithing is simply about trusting God with your resources. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2714
5/28/14 11:15 am
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John Stevenson |
And a principle if you look up the meaning is a foundation. You don't do away with or tear down a good foundation, you build on it. So instead of trying to argue that we shouldn't pay tithes, we should make the argument that to whom much is given (and we've been given a new and better covenant) much is required.
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www.bwcuhrichsville.org |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 671
5/28/14 5:45 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| John Stevenson wrote: | | And a principle if you look up the meaning is a foundation. You don't do away with or tear down a good foundation, you build on it. So instead of trying to argue that we shouldn't pay tithes, we should make the argument that to whom much is given (and we've been given a new and better covenant) much is required. |
Please cite any passage in the Bible where God ever established tithing on ANYTHING as some "eternal principle". Another myth.
And as far as Acts 15 is concerned, i figured you might play the "circumcision card" so I emboldened something to head that off that you obviously missed. It was not just circumcision that was being imposed on the Gentile Christians, it was the whole Law....
| Quote: | | 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” |
That "Law of Moses" included tithing (which again, never had to do with money in the first place) and you are trying to shove it down the church's throat as well.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/28/14 6:27 pm
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John Stevenson |
nope! Learned this while I was studying for my bachelors degree in ministry...the context of the law that they are referring to is circumcision not the law in it's entirety. Even the Matthew Henry commentary agrees with me on this point. So your point is mute.
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www.bwcuhrichsville.org |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 671
5/28/14 6:45 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| John Stevenson wrote: | | nope! Learned this while I was studying for my bachelors degree in ministry...the context of the law that they are referring to is circumcision not the law in it's entirety. Even the Matthew Henry commentary agrees with me on this point. So your point is mute. |
the text clearly says 'AND ....Law of Moses"
In later epistles Paul lists the things the Gentiles were being seduced into obeying, and it was much more than circumcision. They were being told to follow the whole Law. I have a Bach degree as well , but a third grader could read the text and figure it out.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/28/14 7:49 pm
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Tracy S Hamilton |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | John Stevenson wrote: | | And a principle if you look up the meaning is a foundation. You don't do away with or tear down a good foundation, you build on it. So instead of trying to argue that we shouldn't pay tithes, we should make the argument that to whom much is given (and we've been given a new and better covenant) much is required. |
Please cite any passage in the Bible where God ever established tithing on ANYTHING as some "eternal principle". Another myth.
And as far as Acts 15 is concerned, i figured you might play the "circumcision card" so I emboldened something to head that off that you obviously missed. It was not just circumcision that was being imposed on the Gentile Christians, it was the whole Law....
| Quote: | | 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” |
That "Law of Moses" included tithing (which again, never had to do with money in the first place) and you are trying to shove it down the church's throat as well. |
Where did the principle of the "tithe" or tenth begin.... with Moses? or did it begin before the law."
I think we all know the answer. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2714
5/29/14 1:18 pm
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John Stevenson |
I can't believe I actually have to explain this.....  "And" can be used as a conduction or a noun. Most often it is used as a conduction. It means: along with, together with, in addition to, besides, also, at the same time, then again,......... . In the scripture refereed to it means "at the same time". An example would be "he slept and snored". While the man slept...he snored.
In other words, the Christian were saying that the Gentiles had to follow the Law of Moses for circumcision to identify themselves as Christians. But under the new covenant we are identified differently.
_________________
www.bwcuhrichsville.org |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 671
5/29/14 2:07 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | John Stevenson wrote: | | And a principle if you look up the meaning is a foundation. You don't do away with or tear down a good foundation, you build on it. So instead of trying to argue that we shouldn't pay tithes, we should make the argument that to whom much is given (and we've been given a new and better covenant) much is required. |
Please cite any passage in the Bible where God ever established tithing on ANYTHING as some "eternal principle". Another myth.
And as far as Acts 15 is concerned, i figured you might play the "circumcision card" so I emboldened something to head that off that you obviously missed. It was not just circumcision that was being imposed on the Gentile Christians, it was the whole Law....
| Quote: | | 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” |
That "Law of Moses" included tithing (which again, never had to do with money in the first place) and you are trying to shove it down the church's throat as well. |
Where did the principle of the "tithe" or tenth begin.... with Moses? or did it begin before the law."
I think we all know the answer. |
It never began. There is no principle involved. Before the Law there are a couple of isolated incidents mentioned of tithing that were not commanded by God, hardly something we can build a doctrine on for the church. Under the Law a certain group of Jews were commanded to tithe to support the priesthood and to help orphans and widows. Not all Jews were commanded to do it. The covenant that necessitated a tithe of produce is gone. No other tithe or "principle" is mentioned in the Bible about giving ten percent of monetary income to anyone. do it you want. It's not a sin for sure. But God will not bless you based on a magic number 10.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/29/14 5:04 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| John Stevenson wrote: | I can't believe I actually have to explain this..... "And" can be used as a conduction or a noun. Most often it is used as a conduction. It means: along with, together with, in addition to, besides, also, at the same time, then again,......... . In the scripture refereed to it means "at the same time". An example would be "he slept and snored". While the man slept...he snored.
In other words, the Christian were saying that the Gentiles had to follow the Law of Moses for circumcision to identify themselves as Christians. But under the new covenant we are identified differently. |
Again, Paul made it clear in his epistles that the Gentile Christians were being told to follow ALL Jewish customs and ordinances. Thus the wording "and the Law" in Acts 15.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/29/14 5:06 pm
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John Stevenson |
The word "all" is not in there. The word "and" is. It's like saying, "I'm going to the store "and" buy a gallon of milk.
Again, Jesus said not one jot or tittle until heaven and earth pass away. I've asked this numerous times, just show mw where heaven and earth passed away? Are you saying that we're in a new heaven and new earth?
Also, Jesus told the Pharisees that they ought to pay tithes. He didn't tell them they didn't have to. If you can show me where it says, "Thou Shall Not Pay Tithes"....end of debate.
And God always blesses when you give with the right attitude no matter the amount, it's called the principle of sowing and reaping. So to say that God won't bless is arrogant because I don't think God told you that and the Bible doesn't say that at all. So yes, God will bless you based on the number 10...and 15, 20, 25...you name it, He'll bless if you give with a cheerful heart.
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www.bwcuhrichsville.org |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 671
5/29/14 8:34 pm
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