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 Really-???? Deskjet7 |
SHINTEX |
Buck did not walk away, he was fired by this AB. Since that happened, surely this AB had a "hero" as a back up plan to come in and replace Buck and save the day.
We all know that's how the COG process works. You remove a pastor and have another one to replace the one you remove.
Who was the next guy? Where is he now? What could he do that Buck couldn't do? Are you saying another man could get the same people to give money to pay the bills and Buck couldn't. Somehow make that happen with no staff to help in any way because clearly that's where you are putting the blame. Paying staff is why the loans were not paid.
You seem to have insight on the situation, so why was Buck ever allowed to have a church in one name & loans under another? Again, where was the AB & council?
This church, according to you, took out another loan. Which was also approved by the former AB & State Council, which some of the same men are serving today on the current council.
Does the State Council not asses property and the use of funds loaned before they sign to agree to the in-debtness? Then afterwords follow up to keep checks & balances in place to make sure funds are used for building upgrades/new building?
Why would Buck, who was forced out of his church take the Ennis COG debt with him? Is the COG willing to give him the property that he would be making payments on? No!
You can't have it both ways.
It sounds like it's the pastor's debt when the bills need to be paid, it's the COG's when there is a profit to be made.
Soon you will be seeing where this same scenario will be happening in Dallas, Texas with this same AB. The difference, Dallas doesn't owe a debt, they have profit from the sale of their property. The AB won't let them purchase new property with their money.
Not to highjack this thread, I will start a new one with the $27,000 question never answered in another thread on this discussion board. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 120
7/12/13 7:31 pm
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| Re: Really-???? Deskjet7 |
deskjet7 |
| SHINTEX wrote: | Buck did not walk away, he was fired by this AB. Since that happened, surely this AB had a "hero" as a back up plan to come in and replace Buck and save the day.
We all know that's how the COG process works. You remove a pastor and have another one to replace the one you remove.
Who was the next guy? Where is he now? What could he do that Buck couldn't do? Are you saying another man could get the same people to give money to pay the bills and Buck couldn't. Somehow make that happen with no staff to help in any way because clearly that's where you are putting the blame. Paying staff is why the loans were not paid.
You seem to have insight on the situation, so why was Buck ever allowed to have a church in one name & loans under another? Again, where was the AB & council?
This church, according to you, took out another loan. Which was also approved by the former AB & State Council, which some of the same men are serving today on the current council.
Does the State Council not asses property and the use of funds loaned before they sign to agree to the in-debtness? Then afterwords follow up to keep checks & balances in place to make sure funds are used for building upgrades/new building?
Why would Buck, who was forced out of his church take the Ennis COG debt with him? Is the COG willing to give him the property that he would be making payments on? No!
You can't have it both ways.
It sounds like it's the pastor's debt when the bills need to be paid, it's the COG's when there is a profit to be made.
Soon you will be seeing where this same scenario will be happening in Dallas, Texas with this same AB. The difference, Dallas doesn't owe a debt, they have profit from the sale of their property. The AB won't let them purchase new property with their money.
Not to highjack this thread, I will start a new one with the $27,000 question never answered in another thread on this discussion board. |
You appear to know everything that is going on and have drawn to a conclusion on all matters. I have already answered the $27,000 question. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1815
7/12/13 8:02 pm
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| Deskjet7 |
SHINTEX |
You never answered my question, I didn't ask if he was given a personal loan.
I read in another thread a council member was given a "gift" of $27,000 to pay off his parsonage.
This is serious if a council member is given money with no obligation to pay it back while Texas has struggling pastor's being removed because they can not pay their payments.
Where is the logic or Biblical basis for this? |
Friendly Face
Posts: 120
7/12/13 8:17 pm
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| Re: Really-???? Deskjet7 |
Ben Gates |
According to the info and the title of the thread Buck "RESIGNED." He was never fired. If I read Buck's post correctly he was allowed to stay and chose not too. It's funny how the church was able to get itself current in a matter of days but was months behind on payments for years.
| SHINTEX wrote: | Buck did not walk away, he was fired by this AB. Since that happened, surely this AB had a "hero" as a back up plan to come in and replace Buck and save the day.
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Friendly Face
Posts: 192
7/12/13 8:38 pm
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| Re: Deskjet7 |
deskjet7 |
| SHINTEX wrote: | You never answered my question, I didn't ask if he was given a personal loan.
I read in another thread a council member was given a "gift" of $27,000 to pay off his parsonage.
This is serious if a council member is given money with no obligation to pay it back while Texas has struggling pastor's being removed because they can not pay their payments.
Where is the logic or Biblical basis for this? |
I will tell you again that a Council member was not given a "gift". Also, Pastor's do not own parsonages. You are swatting at a gnat and swallowing a camel. You seem to be so angry you can't see or think straight. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1815
7/12/13 8:53 pm
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| Deskjet7 |
SHINTEX |
| Refer all post to the new thread |
Friendly Face
Posts: 120
7/12/13 8:56 pm
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| Re: Really-???? Deskjet7 |
John Jett |
| Ben Gates wrote: | According to the info and the title of the thread Buck "RESIGNED." He was never fired. If I read Buck's post correctly he was allowed to stay and chose not too. It's funny how the church was able to get itself current in a matter of days but was months behind on payments for years.
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[/quote]
Technically true, however you are dismissing the whole account in its entirety to make a point. Buck was given NO recourse at all. Not until the General Overseer stepped in. At that point, trust was broken completely and Buck did what he felt was his only true option.
Where have you read one time in this that we were "months behind on payments for years"? The fact was stated over and over again but apparently you can't read. I'll type slowly. The church had not been behind on Mortgage or TOT for over 30 months. Is that clear enough? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4955
7/13/13 11:14 am
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| Re: A few things... |
Ben Gates |
Does "New Hope Church" plan on paying back the Ennis Church of God for the couple hundred thousand dollars thar "New Hope Church" blew and have nothing to show for it.
| Buck Marshall wrote: | But for those who may have a concern, the Ennis Church of God is the name of the church that I have pastored for 6 1/2 years. It was the name before I got there; it is still registered as such with the State of Texas in Austin. We never changed it legally. As someone has already pointed out...we were planting New Hope Church in Ennis in 2006 before I was appointed pastor of the Ennis Church of God in 2007. We have used the name New Hope at the Ennis CoG since Easter 2007. We never used New Hope Church of God. So, we were New Hope Church before I was appointed as the pastor of Ennis CoG and now that we are out of the CoG we are still New Hope Church. The name is ours...I have the paperwork. Not only that, but the websites were built by Steve Hoffman. He maintained them and owns them. All the domain names are and always have been in his name and paid for by him each year...not the church. They don't belong to me...they belong to Steve.
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Friendly Face
Posts: 192
7/13/13 5:04 pm
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| Re: A few things... |
John Jett |
| Ben Gates wrote: | Does "New Hope Church" plan on paying back the Ennis Church of God for the couple hundred thousand dollars thar "New Hope Church" blew and have nothing to show for it.
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[/quote]
I take it you're not posting this line of dung under your real name. Just because Ol-big-pen-name said something to this effect doesn't mean its truthful. That money was put into ministry and repair/update of the building and signed off on by the state. It went into programs that reached thousands in the city and resulted (either directly or indirectly) in hundreds coming to accept Christ over the time Buck has been there. But you and your obvious asset-based view of a "church" want to see "real estate added to the church daily as the HQ saw fit". Thanks for revealing the true heart of this matter. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4955
7/13/13 5:39 pm
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| Re: A few things... |
theedmister |
| John Jett wrote: | | Ben Gates wrote: | Does "New Hope Church" plan on paying back the Ennis Church of God for the couple hundred thousand dollars thar "New Hope Church" blew and have nothing to show for it.
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I take it you're not posting this line of dung under your real name. Just because Ol-big-pen-name said something to this effect doesn't mean its truthful. That money was put into ministry and repair/update of the building and signed off on by the state. It went into programs that reached thousands in the city and resulted (either directly or indirectly) in hundreds coming to accept Christ over the time Buck has been there. But you and your obvious asset-based view of a "church" want to see "real estate added to the church daily as the HQ saw fit". Thanks for revealing the true heart of this matter.[/quote]
I do hear the state mentioned a lot when it comes to this loan. I don't speak for them but I would say that when they "signed off" on the loan they did it in good faith with the pastor and the elders. Expecting them to take care of it. Not just spend it and move on.
John, did you stay at the church or go with New Hope? |
Friendly Face
Posts: 231
7/13/13 8:30 pm
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| Re: A few things... |
Ben Gates |
So hundreds came to Christ as a result of the programs but they all just decided to go elsewhere to church or just didn't like to give their money to the church until the state and bank decided enough was enough.
| John Jett wrote: | | Ben Gates wrote: | Does "New Hope Church" plan on paying back the Ennis Church of God for the couple hundred thousand dollars thar "New Hope Church" blew and have nothing to show for it.
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I take it you're not posting this line of dung under your real name. Just because Ol-big-pen-name said something to this effect doesn't mean its truthful. That money was put into ministry and repair/update of the building and signed off on by the state. It went into programs that reached thousands in the city and resulted (either directly or indirectly) in hundreds coming to accept Christ over the time Buck has been there. But you and your obvious asset-based view of a "church" want to see "real estate added to the church daily as the HQ saw fit". Thanks for revealing the true heart of this matter.[/quote] |
Friendly Face
Posts: 192
7/13/13 8:40 pm
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| Re: there was not rushing in |
Link |
| deskjet7 wrote: |
From the time New Hope came to the Ennis Church of God, New Hope received open arms from the state to help that church congregation. Unfortunately, at what now will be at the State expense, the amount of indebtedness has increased, not gone down as some of you would believe. For what? No new additions to the building, so at this point the state is left with the tab of double the amount now due then when before New Hope congregation took the Ennis Church of God. There was also an additional six figure loan taken out sometime ago by the church. Still no additions to the building, or property purchased.
What is disturbing is that the church operated by getting loans, etc under Ennis Church of God, but kept their 501C3 status with as New Hope Church. So they walk away from Ennis Church of God, back independent as New Hope Church with no obligation to the loans they took out. |
It's not a good situation. If the church isn't bringing in enough money to pay down the debt, this kind of stuff can happen. But is it unfair that New Hope can walk away without obligations on the loan? Did they take any of the money that was borrowed? Didn't the state office approve all the loans? Why should the 501c3 take over the payments on the property. The COG organization owns the property, right, not the local congregation? So why should the congregation or the 501c3 be on the hook for the loan?
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
7/13/13 8:42 pm
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| Re: Really-???? Deskjet7 |
Link |
| SHINTEX wrote: |
Not to highjack this thread, I will start a new one with the $27,000 question never answered in another thread on this discussion board. |
If one individual willingly gives another individual $27,000, what business is that of ours?
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
7/13/13 8:48 pm
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| Re: When is enough, enough? |
Link |
| SHINTEX wrote: | That is why qualified men should be elected to serve on a State Council to make sure young minister's don't make such decisions without being stopped. They don't know, they need the elders to teach them.
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I'm curious and I am asking sincerely. Do any of the people on these state councils have any education experience with real estate and finance beyond being preachers? Do preachers who spent years working in real estate or finance ever fill these roles?
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
7/13/13 8:51 pm
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| Re: there was not rushing in |
theedmister |
| Link wrote: | | deskjet7 wrote: |
From the time New Hope came to the Ennis Church of God, New Hope received open arms from the state to help that church congregation. Unfortunately, at what now will be at the State expense, the amount of indebtedness has increased, not gone down as some of you would believe. For what? No new additions to the building, so at this point the state is left with the tab of double the amount now due then when before New Hope congregation took the Ennis Church of God. There was also an additional six figure loan taken out sometime ago by the church. Still no additions to the building, or property purchased.
What is disturbing is that the church operated by getting loans, etc under Ennis Church of God, but kept their 501C3 status with as New Hope Church. So they walk away from Ennis Church of God, back independent as New Hope Church with no obligation to the loans they took out. |
It's not a good situation. If the church isn't bringing in enough money to pay down the debt, this kind of stuff can happen. But is it unfair that New Hope can walk away without obligations on the loan? Did they take any of the money that was borrowed? Didn't the state office approve all the loans? Why should the 501c3 take over the payments on the property. The COG organization owns the property, right, not the local congregation? So why should the congregation or the 501c3 be on the hook for the loan? |
I hope this is sarcasm. If not this is ridiculous. The state makes decisions on the integrity of the pastor and elders. This is under good faith that it will be taken care of. Owning property protects the local church from rogue pastors or boards selling property. It is accountability. This may be somewhat outdated but there is a reason.
The people should take responsibility not run from what they created. Happens too much. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 231
7/13/13 9:14 pm
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| Re: When is enough, enough? |
theedmister |
| Link wrote: | | SHINTEX wrote: | That is why qualified men should be elected to serve on a State Council to make sure young minister's don't make such decisions without being stopped. They don't know, they need the elders to teach them.
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I'm curious and I am asking sincerely. Do any of the people on these state councils have any education experience with real estate and finance beyond being preachers? Do preachers who spent years working in real estate or finance ever fill these roles? |
As council yes, as professionals no. That is what it works so great. They are advisers acting in good faith with the pastor and elders. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 231
7/13/13 9:16 pm
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| Re: A few things... |
theedmister |
| deleted |
Friendly Face
Posts: 231
7/13/13 9:18 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
I haven't heard anyone mention trustees. Aren't there trustees (people within the church) who are part of the finance committee who put their name on the line when a loan is taken out by a local church? Maybe someone with a book of minutes could check that out.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
7/14/13 8:50 pm
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georgiapath |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | | I haven't heard anyone mention trustees. Aren't there trustees (people within the church) who are part of the finance committee who put their name on the line when a loan is taken out by a local church? Maybe someone with a book of minutes could check that out. |
I think you're right, at least it is here. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7604
7/15/13 3:50 am
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Bro Bob |
I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the Local Board of Trustees (not to be confused with the Church and Pastor's Council) have the authority to sign documents, including purchases of property, sale of property and loans against property on behalf of the church. There are several things which must transpire for them to do this work before any specific transaction can take place. This does not make any one of them personally responsible for any debt so long as they have followed faithfully their duties as laid out in the MINUTES.
I am open for correction...
BB |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
7/15/13 11:06 am
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