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Quiet Wyatt |
They would probably say such were a false convert, not truly born again. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 4/20/13 5:16 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
It doesn't matter what they say. The Word called them a convert. |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 4/20/13 5:20 pm
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No, OSAS is NOT a doctrine of the devil |
Aaron Scott |
It begins with the very best of intentions. It has some scriptural support (predestination, etc.).
Moreover, I don't know of a single believer in OSAS that actually thinks that someone who is TRULY saved will live like the devil anyway. They would argue that if you are living a sinful life, then you must not have been actually saved to begin with.
Yes, this is a cop-out, but OSASers aren't trying to make it easy for people to sin. But some do indeed abuse this doctrine.
JUST LIKE THEY ABUSE OURS! That is, if you do sin, you can just ask for forgiveness and everything is hunky-dory again. Do it a hundred times? No problem--welcome back!
The doctrine itself is not devilish. The people who seek to abuse this doctrine are devilish. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 4/20/13 6:19 pm
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No, OSAS is NOT a doctrine of the devil |
Aaron Scott |
It begins with the very best of intentions. It has some scriptural support (predestination, etc.).
Moreover, I don't know of a single believer in OSAS that actually thinks that someone who is TRULY saved will live like the devil anyway. They would argue that if you are living a sinful life, then you must not have been actually saved to begin with.
Yes, this is a cop-out, but OSASers aren't trying to make it easy for people to sin. But some do indeed abuse this doctrine.
JUST LIKE THEY ABUSE OURS! That is, if you do sin, you can just ask for forgiveness and everything is hunky-dory again. Do it a hundred times? No problem--welcome back!
The doctrine itself is not devilish. The people who seek to abuse this doctrine are devilish. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 4/20/13 6:19 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
As a boy I attended for several years a Baptist private Christian school that used the ACE curriculum. After high school, I attended for three years a Southern Baptist university. In my experience (which was extensive enough to know and interact with plenty of Baptists over the years and to hear plenty of Baptist sermons in chapel both in grade school and in college) Baptists have been quite insistent that one HAS to sin daily in word, thought and deed or else one has good reason to doubt one's conversion was genuine. When I was in college, all my drinking buddies were Baptist, and every last one of them would unequivocally insist that they were saved no matter what, that it was all by grace, that all their sins "past, present, and future" had already been paid for and so there was simply no way to ever fall from grace and be lost, regardless of how much sin they may commit. They would say that we Pentecostals didn't really believe in the blood of Jesus, the work of the cross, the power of the gospel, etc., because if we truly did, we would understand that we were unconditionally eternally secure because of the blood of Jesus. They would usually always say grace was not a license to sin, of course. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 4/20/13 7:25 pm
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Patrick Harris |
QW
I respectively disagree.
I've attended a Baptist church for almost 5 years, pastored a Baptist worship site for almost a year, and graduated from a Baptist college.
During my years in there college I took numerous theology courses.
I never once heard it taught that you had to sin everyday, either in college or in church.
I've never had one say anything about bad about beingnPentecostal either. Most will privately if not publicly say they have no problem with the gift of tongues, to include my calvinist friends.
In each of the SBC churches I have attended, grace was never exalted to the exclusion of how wrong sin was.
Do I believe you can lose your salvation? Yes.
Do I believe that it's as easy as I was taught in the early 80's in the Church of God? No.
Patrick |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1323 4/20/13 7:54 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Your experience may differ with mine, certainly, Patrick. But your experience does not nullify mine. I've heard Charles Stanley preach whole sermons on "the security of the believer," in which he has made it clear that unconditional eternal security IS the gospel, and that for one to deny UES/OSAS is to deny the gospel itself. (I don't believe in eternal INsecurity either, by the way). |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 4/20/13 8:02 pm
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OSAS has not sent one person to hell. |
caseyleejones |
I do not agree with OSAS. People call it a damnable doctrine but I'm not sure how that is. Is it error? Yes. But nobody is in hell for believing that doctrine. |
Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11798 4/20/13 9:00 pm
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Re: OSAS has not sent one person to hell. |
Quiet Wyatt |
caseyleejones wrote: | I do not agree with OSAS. People call it a damnable doctrine but I'm not sure how that is. Is it error? Yes. But nobody is in hell for believing that doctrine. |
If someone believes they are saved no matter what they do or don't do, then yes, obviously there will be many who will find themselves condemned due to their (erroneous) belief. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 4/20/13 9:12 pm
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i bought the first edition of Stanley's book ... |
Rafael D Martinez |
Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Your experience may differ with mine, certainly, Patrick. But your experience does not nullify mine. I've heard Charles Stanley preach whole sermons on "the security of the believer," in which he has made it clear that unconditional eternal security IS the gospel, and that for one to deny UES/OSAS is to deny the gospel itself. (I don't believe in eternal INsecurity either, by the way). |
on eternal security .. it is almost illegible for all of the argumentation I scribbled into it as I read it. And that is the thrust of the book as you point out, QW. _________________ www.spiritwatch.org
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16
These are trying times. Everyone's trying something and getting caught. The Church Lady, 1987 |
Acts-dicted Posts: 7766 4/20/13 9:16 pm
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FWIW, here's why eternal security is unscriptural .. |
Rafael D Martinez |
FWIW James 5:19-20.
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
James speaks to "brothers" (Christians) "brothers" who "err from the truth" .. and points out a blessing to the one who "converts" them .. that they converted a "SINNER" and spared them what sounds like a sentence to eternal DEATH.
Sounds like a Christian losing their salvation to me .. the Holy Ghost shook me with these verses as I studied them while in the Navy out of a dog eared old Gideon's NT I still have.
A young and earnest Baptist shipmate who was known for his piety asked me if I thought salvation could be lost. All I could do is point these verses to him .. the next thing I knew, he fell away and went into the world. _________________ www.spiritwatch.org
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16
These are trying times. Everyone's trying something and getting caught. The Church Lady, 1987 |
Acts-dicted Posts: 7766 4/20/13 9:20 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
When I had become a suicidal alcoholic in college, one night in despair and contemplating ending it all I looked up a Baptist pastor in the Yellow Pages and called him. I told him what I was contemplating. I then asked him if he thought I would go to Hell if I committed suicide. He very straightforwardly said, "If you've ever been truly saved, all your sins, even suicide, have been paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ. You can never lose your salvation no matter what. You are unconditionally eternally secure because of what Jesus has done for you."
When I asked him what about what James 5 says about a brother turning away, his soul being saved from death if he is turned back to God, etc., the Baptist preacher replied, "Well the Greek word for soul there refers to your mind, will and emotions dying, not your eternal soul. Again, nothing can separate you from the love of God. Nothing at all, not even suicide."
Thankfully I choose to believe he was wrong and that suicide would not mean a quick trip to Heaven. Eventually a couple years later I called out to God for deliverance and was graciously delivered and restored and have now been sober for 23 years, but I am sure glad I didn't listen to that damnable doctrine during that dark night. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 4/20/13 10:25 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
I have since heard more than one Baptist or "grace teacher" on TV or the radio say the same thing--that all your sins, "past, present and future" were "paid for" on Calvary, even up to and including suicide, that if a Christian were to commit suicide, he would go straight to Heaven because even that sin was paid for. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 4/20/13 10:32 pm
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Ventureforth |
Quiet Wyatt wrote: | I don't believe you can 'lose' salvation like you might accidentally lose your wallet or your keys. It can be forfeited or forsaken by willfully turning away from Christ and returning to a sinful lifestyle. |
I'm glad you clarified your view. Yours is similar to mine.
Straying from the truth (James 5)
Departing from the faith(1 Timothy 4)
Otherwise, someone might be convinced that they have lost and regained their salvation many times over their life time. How many of us can say we have never sinned after initial salvation? |
Acts-celerater Posts: 651 4/21/13 4:16 pm
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Re: Here are just a few reasons |
c6thplayer1 |
cogdrfeelgood wrote: | A short Biblical List of my reasons I DO NOT believe in OSAS
2. Hebrews 10:26-34 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
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I wont waste time explaining all of your efforts so I just took the easy one first.
Heb 10 - Here the scripture is directed toward those who perform sacrifices for sins. { Start at the beginning of the chapter and read it all }
Once they receive the good news about Jesus sacrifice for us, then their sacrifices are all null and void or as the scripture states " There remaineth no more sacrifices for sin.
If you take this verse literally then once your saved you better walk the straight line because if you willfully sin again " There remaineth NO more sacrifice for sin ". |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6385 4/21/13 9:19 pm
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Hebrews Chapter 10 not good example for OSAS |
diakoneo |
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
To draw back leads to destruction or to continue in patience of believing to salvation. You have a choice.
NO!!! a thousand times NO to OSAS!!! |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3382 4/22/13 7:21 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
Most modern translations shed better light on the Greek verb tense in this passage:
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Hebrews 10:26, 27 NIV)
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26, 27 NASB)
The same point is expressed in 1 John 3:6-9, in which the KJV would leave the impression that one sin means you're not saved:
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. (1 John 3:6-9 NIV)
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? (Romans 6:1, 2 NIV) |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 4/22/13 8:52 am
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Re: Hebrews Chapter 10 not good example for OSAS |
bradfreeman |
diakoneo wrote: | Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
To draw back leads to destruction or to continue in patience of believing to salvation. You have a choice.
NO!!! a thousand times NO to OSAS!!! |
Only faith in Christ's perfect sacrifice gets us in. Only the failure of faith can cause us to fall from grace. Our faith fails when we move from faith in Christ to faith in our ability to stop sinning (drawing back from faith to old covenant rules and sacrifices and thinking). If we could keep the rules and earn it, Christ's death was a waste of time. God wants and empowers us to stop sinning, but our covenant promise is mercy (not judgment and wrath) when we sin. Our covenant promise is that our sin will not be imputed to us or remembered any more! We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from his ability to keep the rules.
Hebrews 10 is written by a Hebrew to Hebrews, hence the use of "we" and "his people". Once they (Jews) received the truth that Christ's perfect sacrifice has sanctified us all by taking away all sin and reconciling all to God, they can no longer escape judgment and wrath by offering the old covenant sacrifices. They can only escape judgment and wrath by entering into the NEW covenant. _________________ I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 4/22/13 9:11 am
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Bro Bob |
It is only difficult because we make it difficult. Acts 8 gives a real life example if we will only take it for exactly what is said and not argue that what is said was not really the case.
There is no Unconditional Eternal Security in "Thy money perish with thee." Peter knew what was required and prescribed it: "Repent of this, thy wickedness." He knew he was talking to a recent convert who had accepted Christ and had been baptized. Why didn't he tell him to repent of his wickedness, and go be baptized again?
Why was Simon's future sin not already covered when he was saved? Or when he was baptized. (Church of Christ). Why was this Christian told he "had no part nor lot in this matter"? Why was this eternally secure Christian told to repent AFTER he was saved?
And why do we in the Church of God so often preach Simon as lost, when it is clear he accepted the rebuke of Peter and followed the instruction to repent?
....................
You want to know how to preach eternal security? Preach it the way it was applied in Acts 8. Use that as your model. It will answer every question you have if you will just accept the answer it gives. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3944 4/22/13 9:23 am
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Re: Hebrews Chapter 10 not good example for OSAS |
c6thplayer1 |
bradfreeman wrote: | diakoneo wrote: | Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
To draw back leads to destruction or to continue in patience of believing to salvation. You have a choice.
NO!!! a thousand times NO to OSAS!!! |
Only faith in Christ's perfect sacrifice gets us in. Only the failure of faith can cause us to fall from grace. Our faith fails when we move from faith in Christ to faith in our ability to stop sinning (drawing back from faith to old covenant rules and sacrifices and thinking). If we could keep the rules and earn it, Christ's death was a waste of time. God wants and empowers us to stop sinning, but our covenant promise is mercy (not judgment and wrath) when we sin. Our covenant promise is that our sin will not be imputed to us or remembered any more! We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from his ability to keep the rules.
Hebrews 10 is written by a Hebrew to Hebrews, hence the use of "we" and "his people". Once they (Jews) received the truth that Christ's perfect sacrifice has sanctified us all by taking away all sin and reconciling all to God, they can no longer escape judgment and wrath by offering the old covenant sacrifices. They can only escape judgment and wrath by entering into the NEW covenant. |
Well Said !!!! |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6385 4/22/13 1:59 pm
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