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 Why I think we're losing kids... |
Aaron Scott |
First of all, we have ALWAYS lost kids. Maybe more now than before...but we've always had some that go away.
Some do it because they just have a carnal heart and rebel against Church. I have a 13-year-old Pentecostal preacher's daughter in one of my classes. She has a reputation for having a bad attitude and language. I just mentioned it in passing to her--"Aren't you saved?" She replied with a frankness that amazed me, "I don't want to get saved yet." Apparently she thought it would cramp her style.
Some leave because they have seen how supposedly real Christians have acted. Sometimes they have seen this in their parents. Many preachers kids, I think, saw it how their parents were TREATED. They don't have a lot of confidence or respect in the Church. And when you don't, it's not far to the next step.
Some fall away because their lives were not built around church. They grew up where church was optional, or where it was something you did only if there wasn't some school activity or sport.
But for all of these things, I noticed couple of posts that I think hit it squarely--these kids are not living born-again lives. If they ever were born-again, they have lost out.
I don't think it's valid at all to say that because a church doesn't have a great youth program, kids leave. THOSE sorts of kids are likely not really "in" church to being with. Go back 60 years. Our forefathers didn't have fancy programs for youth. It was church, fellowship, and more church. Yet many of those kids got rooted.
I think that church youth programs that too often separate youth from the adults is not a good thing. After all, if we want our children to come up behind us and take the reins, we have to school them in it.
Yes, we should have things for the youth (after all, just because they might not have done that all that often 60 years ago, doesn't mean there's not value). But it must be a "real thing" sort of church. Not just hanging out for pizza and a very lite word.
I'm rambling. But this is how I see it. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
2/14/13 9:23 pm
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Randy Johnson |
Does leaving the "church" necessarily equate to leaving God and Jesus??
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Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
2/14/13 11:19 pm
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| Re: Why I think we're losing kids... |
Cojak |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | First of all, we have ALWAYS lost kids. Maybe more now than before...but we've always had some that go away.
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Yes, we should have things for the youth (after all, just because they might not have done that all that often 60 years ago, doesn't mean there's not value). But it must be a "real thing" sort of church. Not just hanging out for pizza and a very lite word.
I'm rambling. But this is how I see it. |
I like what you are a saying my friend. A good ramble. 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24275
2/14/13 11:22 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | | Does leaving the "church" necessarily equate to leaving God and Jesus?? |
I think, generally speaking, that is the way the article writer was defining it. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
2/15/13 12:00 am
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Patrick Harris |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | | Does leaving the "church" necessarily equate to leaving God and Jesus?? |
No, not hardly.. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1323
2/15/13 7:11 am
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Randy Johnson |
| Patrick Harris wrote: | | Randy Johnson wrote: | | Does leaving the "church" necessarily equate to leaving God and Jesus?? |
No, not hardly.. |
When Mel Gibson made his film The Passion of the Christ he said in an interview that "There is no salvation outside the Church", meaning of course, the particular Catholic branch that he was affiliated with. I thought of that this morning when reading this thread again.
What would you think of this statement:
Salvation does not come from the Church: The Church comes from those who are experiencing salvation.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
2/15/13 8:18 am
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Patrick Harris |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | | Patrick Harris wrote: | | Randy Johnson wrote: | | Does leaving the "church" necessarily equate to leaving God and Jesus?? |
No, not hardly.. |
When Mel Gibson made his film The Passion of the Christ he said in an interview that "There is no salvation outside the Church", meaning of course, the particular Catholic branch that he was affiliated with. I thought of that this morning when reading this thread again.
What would you think of this statement:
Salvation does not come from the Church: The Church comes from those who are experiencing salvation. |
I actually was thinking about the same thing when I replied.. About the definition of "church", and what some may believe that means.
I agree with the statement from my own perspective. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1323
2/15/13 8:32 am
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Daniel Rushing |
I am surprised at all the negative feedback. I thought it was spot on!
Maybe I am irrelevant.  |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3063
2/18/13 7:51 pm
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| Re: Nothing negative about the article, here. |
Daniel Rushing |
| Major B. Trammell wrote: | 
| Quote: | 10. The Church is “Relevant”:
You didn’t misread that, I didn’t say irrelevant, I said RELEVANT. We’ve taken a historic, 2,000 year old faith, dressed it in plaid and skinny jeans and tried to sell it as “cool” to our kids. It’s not cool. It’s not modern. What we’re packaging is a cheap knockoff of the world we’re called to evangelize.
As the quote says, “When the ship is in the ocean, everything’s fine. When the ocean gets into the ship, you’re in trouble.”
...
We’re like a fawning wanna-be just hoping the world will think we’re cool too, you know, just like you guys!
Our kids meet the real world and our “look, we’re cool like you” posing is mocked. In our effort to be “like them” we’ve become less of who we actually are. The middle-aged pastor trying to look like his 20-something audience isn’t relevant. Dress him up in skinny jeans and hand him a latte, it doesn’t matter. It’s not relevant, It’s comically cliché. The minute you aim to be “authentic”, you’re no longer authentic! |
A great big hearty, "AMEN!" (Yes, I shouted it!) from me!
This is the sort of thing that makes me embarrassed for other pastors who do this kind of thing.
A middle-aged man calling himself a "life coach" dressed in the latest Buckle jeans and graphic t-shirt and Sketchers, armed with an iPad, showing off a shaved head and a headset microphone seated at a pub-style table with a latte in his hand, pastoring a church with a verb (something -ate) as the name, and with a Starbucks in the lobby, singing rock songs to open a worship service and gimmicks like driving motorcycles on stage and setting things on fire- all in the interest of being "relevant" and "cool."
You're not cool. You're a walking cliche'! And an embarrassingly awkward and silly one at that who lost his credibility with any person capable of intellectual and independent thought the moment you stepped in public in your mega-church preacher get-up.
You're a pastor, not a life coach. Put on some decent clothes (tie not required, but a coat or business casual would at least give the appearance that you have a clue and that you take what you do seriously) and dress age-appropriately. Preach from the Bible and not the television or the magazine or the latest survey. Leave your latte in the kitchen instead of onstage (it stopped being novel and hip in 2005, anyway). Bring a bottle of water if you need to have a Marco Rubio moment. Sing the hymns (unchurched people that you are trying to appear "cool" with- they overwhelmingly would rather hear hymns and songs they've heard before and are familiar with so they don't feel uncomfortable and awkward). Leave the gimmicks at home. Play flame-throwing motorcycle jousting during the men's fellowship breakfast instead of as a sermon illustration that takes up 4/5s of the sermon.
Leave ESPN Game Day for Saturdays on the actual ESPN. Preach the Word, read the Word on Sunday. The choir is your friend- people like singing. It's not yesterday's news. Oh, and your music minister is not worth $90,000 per year. He's just not, even if he is a clone of Chris Tomlin and Bill Gaither. If you're paying him that (or anything remotely close), your priorities are WAY out of whack. There are pastors actually doing ministry rather than putting on shows out there working 3 jobs just to make ends meet. Tell the "church consultant" who is charging $5,000 per month to visit your church once per month and tell you to put speakers in the bushes and hasn't delivered the promised results in 5 years- much less 24 months- to hit the bricks. Start putting that 5 grand into actual ministry rather than putting it into growing your empire and your "brand."
Start trying to reach people everywhere (not just middle-aged, white soccer moms) with the actual life-changing Gospel of Jesus Christ rather than trying to reach them with your cliche "relevance."
Start trying to convince people of their need of a Savior rather than trying to convince them that you're cool like they are.
Be you and quit trying to be something you're not. People see right through that junk.
While it may work on soccer moms (and I do get that silky-white soccer moms are the "target audience" of people who do this, ignoring, dismissing, and tossing aside the value of any other people group to your church), what people- particularly young people- see when they see this kind of thing is FAKE.
...Sorry. This is a pet peeve of mine. The author was spot on, here. |
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Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3063
2/19/13 12:35 am
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| Re: Nothing negative about the article, here. |
Cojak |
| Major B. Trammell wrote: | Be you and quit trying to be something you're not. People see right through that junk.
While it may work on soccer moms (and I do get that silky-white soccer moms are the "target audience" of people who do this, ignoring, dismissing, and tossing aside the value of any other people group to your church), what people- particularly young people- see when they see this kind of thing is FAKE.
...Sorry. This is a pet peeve of mine. The author was spot on, here. |
You are pretty tough on the guy, but I expected no less. I do agree though, some folk strain too hard sometimes, to be 'cool'.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24275
2/19/13 12:50 am
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| My simple experience |
skinnybishop |
My experience in ministry is this:
Young people leave the church because it isn't fun for them. Church just doesn't fit the equation of Christianity for them....or their schedule of activities.
Its not that they don't believe in God.
Its not that they haven't accepted Jesus.
Its not that they don't pray.
Its not that they don't read the Bible.
They believe you can be a Christian without church....and don't see the need to go to a weekly service to prove their loyalty to God. Its too restrictive...too time consuming......requires too much commitment......"Good gracious, the pastor expects us to come EVERY week!"
Having a weekly commitment to church doesn't fit the average young adult's lifestyle. They want to be free to do as they please.
Their attitude is "Sure I'm a Christian. But church is boring and I'd rather be with my family on the weekends. Just because I don't go to church, doesn't mean I'm not a Christian".
So to review:
1. They don't want to go to church
2. They don't see the need of going to church.
They feel they can practice their faith and have fun.......and the church is left out. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1055
2/19/13 10:58 am
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Link |
Maybe one of the top reasons, already mentioned, is that some young people aren't saved. Or they may get saved and stray a bit as they get older.
I suspect one reason for not getting saved at a young age and straying could be a lack of discipleship. If parents take their children to church but don't teach them the word of God, pray with them, and really teach them on a personal level, and then no one they meet at church does it, then where is it going to happen. Kids can get lost in a crowd at church even in youth activities. Personal attention can mean a lot.
If they don't develop a passion for God and His word, then why will they stick around when they grow up? I believe the Lord can use people to help impart a passion, but it also needs to be a work of the Spirit in the young person's life.
I also wonder about the leaven. It's everywhere in some churches these days. It's one of the obvious differences between church in scripture and church we see around us...churches ignoring sin among the professing brethren and doing nothing about it. If it works itself throughout the whole lump of dough.
Why is there so much sin in the church? Because there is sin in the church. There is sin in the church and the church doesn't do anything. The children can get infected to. And being turned off by hypocrisy adds to the effect.
I also agree to a certain extent about trying to be too hip or relevant. It isn't that important to be hip, and if you can't pull it off, it's counter productive. It's especially bad when you are trying to be hip but you are pushing fluff. If the teaching and preaching is fluff but it's hip, it's not going to be very effective.
I think a lot of kids and teens would respond better to some nerdy adult with horned-rimmed glasses and a nasal voice who cares about them, tries to relate to them, and shows some emphathy and compassion, better than they relate to someone who's hip but shallow, apathetic about them but all about the program, and pushing fluff.
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
2/20/13 1:44 am
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R. Keith Whitt |
I wrote this a couple of days ago, before reading the last few posts. It was originally posted on ourcog.com. Side note -- Major, I wish you would really tell us how you feel 
A few thoughts:
10. The Church is relevant.
OK, this one I have problems with, sort of. I agree that nobody wants to see me in skinny jeans, with a tat or two, and pierced ears – including me! However, Jesus broke the mold of what was traditional master/disciple relationships and spoke to people where they lived. If that is being “relevant,” then we should be relevant, as opposed to remaining stuck in vain traditions for traditions’ sake. That mindset has driven an entire generation away from the Church.
9. They never attended Church to begin with.
We have segregated our kids from meaningful and interactive worship with adults. I understand the need to educate our children on an age-appropriate level. I also remember that much of my pre-formal (and very foundational) theological education was received during worship services, testimony services, and Sunday School. I’m not sure what the answer is on this one. Perhaps, integration of intergenerational worship and age-specific training should be considered.
8. They got smart. & 7. We sent them out unarmed.
These are one and the same for me. Too many times, we have avoided the hard questions and issues with a “the Bible says it and that settles it” answer. Now, don’t get me wrong. I FIRMLY believe in the authority and power of the Scriptures. I also believe God gave us an intellect and expects us to use it. Dismissing the issues we face with smug piety does not answer the questions of life. We need to teach our kids to struggle with and engage these issues. Direct them to strong Christian thinkers and be ready to dialogue with them. In other words, we must disciple them.
6. We gave them hand-me-downs
Feelings are very much a part of who we are, as Pentecostals. Dead religion produces death. I agree that we cannot live on feelings. Our feelings must be based on a relationship. Creeds (I’m thinking specifically of the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicean Creed) provide us with walls (the Word – living and written – being the foundation) to encapsulate what we believe historically. I’ll get crucified for this one, but our failure to embrace and teach the Apostles’ Creed in our worship (due to Spurling’s admonition) has been a serious weakness. And I’m not talking about a rote recitation. (See Jonathan Martin’s chapter on Spiritual Formation in Issues in Contemporary Pentecostalism, Pathway.)
5. Community
There is a vast difference in a “manufactured” and authentic community. I believe the total segregation during worship has contributed to our failure to have authentic community. If anyone should have authentic community, it should be Pentecostals (people living in the Spirit).
4. They found better feelings.
The problem? Failure to disciple.
3. They got tired of pretending. 2. They know the truth. & 1. They don’t need it.
Again, for me this is a failure of properly discipling our young people. We are people of faith. We know that there are difficulties that we face as Christians, but we cannot wallow in the difficulties. We embrace them and live above them. Following Christ is not a set of rules, but continually living in covenant with him. Covenants have expectations (think marriage), but they are based and powered by relationship. Once a person has an authentic experience and relationship with Christ, nothing else will satisfy.
Thoughts?
_________________
R. Keith Whitt |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 684
2/20/13 7:23 am
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| Re: Nothing negative about the article, here. |
georgiapath |
| Major B. Trammell wrote: |
| Quote: | 10. The Church is “Relevant”:
You didn’t misread that, I didn’t say irrelevant, I said RELEVANT. We’ve taken a historic, 2,000 year old faith, dressed it in plaid and skinny jeans and tried to sell it as “cool” to our kids. It’s not cool. It’s not modern. What we’re packaging is a cheap knockoff of the world we’re called to evangelize.
As the quote says, “When the ship is in the ocean, everything’s fine. When the ocean gets into the ship, you’re in trouble.”
...
We’re like a fawning wanna-be just hoping the world will think we’re cool too, you know, just like you guys!
Our kids meet the real world and our “look, we’re cool like you” posing is mocked. In our effort to be “like them” we’ve become less of who we actually are. The middle-aged pastor trying to look like his 20-something audience isn’t relevant. Dress him up in skinny jeans and hand him a latte, it doesn’t matter. It’s not relevant, It’s comically cliché. The minute you aim to be “authentic”, you’re no longer authentic! |
A great big hearty, "AMEN!" (Yes, I shouted it!) from me!
This is the sort of thing that makes me embarrassed for other pastors who do this kind of thing.
A middle-aged man calling himself a "life coach" dressed in the latest Buckle jeans and graphic t-shirt and Sketchers, armed with an iPad, showing off a shaved head and a headset microphone seated at a pub-style table with a latte in his hand, pastoring a church with a verb (something -ate) as the name, and with a Starbucks in the lobby, singing rock songs to open a worship service and gimmicks like driving motorcycles on stage and setting things on fire- all in the interest of being "relevant" and "cool."
You're not cool. You're a walking cliche'!- and an embarrassingly awkward and silly one, at that- who lost his credibility with any person capable of intellectual and independent thought the moment you stepped in public in your mega-church preacher get-up.
You're a pastor, not a life coach. Put on some decent clothes (tie not required, but a coat or business casual would at least give the appearance that you have a clue and that you take what you do seriously) and dress age-appropriately. Preach from the Bible and not the television or the magazine or the latest survey. Leave your latte in the kitchen instead of onstage (it stopped being novel and hip in 2005, anyway). Bring a bottle of water if you need to have a Marco Rubio moment. Sing the hymns (unchurched people that you are trying to appear "cool" with- they overwhelmingly would rather hear hymns and songs they've heard before and are familiar with so they don't feel uncomfortable and awkward). Leave the gimmicks at home. Play flame-throwing motorcycle jousting during the men's fellowship breakfast or the church picnic instead of as a sermon illustration that takes up 4/5s of the sermon.
Leave ESPN Game Day for Saturdays on the actual ESPN. Preach the Word, read the Word on Sunday. The choir is your friend- people like singing. It's not yesterday's news. Oh, and your music minister is not worth $90,000 per year. He's just not, even if he is a combined clone of Chris Tomlin and Bill Gaither. If you're paying him that (or anything remotely close, even $75,000), your priorities are WAY out of whack. There are pastors actually doing ministry rather than putting on shows out there working 3 jobs just to make ends meet. Tell the "church consultant" who is charging $5,000 per month to visit your church once per month and tell you to put speakers in the bushes and hasn't delivered the promised results in 5 years- much less 24 months- to hit the bricks. Start putting that 5 grand into actual ministry rather than putting it into growing your empire and your "brand."
Start trying to reach people everywhere (not just middle-aged, white soccer moms) with the actual life-changing Gospel of Jesus Christ rather than trying to reach them with your cliche "relevance."
Start trying to convince people of their need of a Savior rather than trying to convince them that you're cool like they are.
Be you and quit trying to be something you're not. People see right through that junk.
While it may work on soccer moms (and I do get that lilly-white soccer moms are the "target audience" of people who do this- ignoring, dismissing, and tossing aside the value of any other people group to your church), what people- particularly young people- think when they see this kind of thing is "FAKE!"
...Sorry. This is a pet peeve of mine. The author was spot on, here. |
Amen, church people don't even like it. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7587
2/20/13 7:52 am
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| Well... |
buttrfli24 |
I didn't read all the replies here... forgive me. Some of you are long winded...
I read the article before I read the comments and I have to say, from years in youth ministry (not as youth pastor, as volunteer labor) I was in agreement with much of what the original author said.
I was surprised that so many of you seem to not be in agreement. I also am surprised that, despite the fact that the author states some statistics (like 70% leave and 50% of those return) and also states that his article is not based on his opinion but on his research and conversations with so-called "prodigals," I'm surprised that despite this, so many of you have your own opinion that in your mind carries more weight that what the prodigals have actually said is the reason(s) why they left.
All I know is, I have a burden for the young adults in our churches who, from my own pew, I can see leaving in droves. The fact is, whether this author is spot on or a million miles off the mark... they are leaving and they aren't all having "prodigal" returns. Some may be, but what about the ones that aren't? Don't they matter? I can't be happy just to hear the same story in the baptimal pool from a few returning. I want to know why they go at all and how can we stop it.
No offense meant to anyone who has previously posted. I'm just typing as I'm thinking. What do you think? How can we stop the outflow that statistics say is growing?
_________________
If at first you don't succeed... please don't try skydiving. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 401
2/20/13 9:02 am
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| It's parents!!! |
Clint Wills |
He blamed the church when it really isn't the churches problem. The church has a kid's attention for (lets assume the high end) 2 hours Sunday morning, 2 hours Sunday night, and 2 hours Wednesday night. That's 6 hours of the week. Lets round that up a little bit to 10 hours a week. That is a little over 10% of their awake time (figuring 14 hours a day). School has them for 35 hours/week. That leaves 53 hours that they aren't asleep, at school, or at work. Those are the hours that their parents have a very direct influence on where their kids are, what they are doing, and who they are doing it with.
I certainly haven't been a saint, but I also never walked away from God...and neither did my sister. In looking at what was different between our friends that didn't ever walk away from God, and those that did it really came down to parents. Not parenting style, but rather consistency. Parents that practiced what they preach seem to have kids that grow up staying with the Lord. This is obviously not a "hard and fast" rule, but it is very prominent in the cases I have looked at. One of my best friends as a kid turned to a homosexual lifestyle. Earlier in their lives his sister ran away from home and moved in her boyfriend - while she was still in high school. At the time I thought, "what is going on? They are a Christian family and Godly parents." Well...come to find out, the mom had been having affairs off-and-on throughout their lives. Sex was casual and not sacred for her, so it wasn't for her kids either.
Let's not lay the blame for teenagers leaving church on the church and put it back on us as parents. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5163
2/21/13 2:03 pm
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