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Did Paul sin?
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Post Re: A conglomeration of thoughts early in the morning bradfreeman
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Brad - personally I think your last post above is one of the greatest summary statements on this matter that I have read. (Summary statements being what they are...) Keith Whitt, Wyatt, Daniel Rushing, Major, others ...please cite specifically the problems with the summary Brad has posted above.


Gracias.

You are obviously intelligent, insightful, full of wisdom, annointed and right. Cool
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2/6/13 11:14 am


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Post Randy Johnson
Daniel Rushing wrote:
No I did not. I said the verses he poste were irrelevant to argument at hand. And yes, sometimes verses are irrlelevant to an argument. I would use the story of Esther to discuss the Sermon on the Mount. It is irrelevant.

Please, spare us all the sensationalism and stop attempting to paint some portrait of me that denies the relevancy of all scripture to life and practice.


Now I'm going to see how the story of Esther can relate to the Sermon on the Mount.
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2/6/13 11:20 am


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Post diakoneo
Quote:
To reconcile John's statements, you have to understand the truth that we are 3 parts - spirit, soul and body. Otherwise, John's teaching makes no sense. He says in one breath "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves" and that he is writing to them so they won't sin (1 Jn. 2:1) but if they do they have an advocate with the father and then says "whatever is born of God cannot sin" in the next (1 Jn. 3:9).


OK, let us look at the verse in 1 John more:

1 John 1:6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

We cannot be in fellowship in the spirit and out of fellowship in the flesh. The three may be separate, but if I am to "mortify my members"and "keep my body under subjection", then the spirit man is to be the controller. If he (the spirit man) is to be in control, he is in control by the power of Jesus Christ. I no longer walk in darkness, but in light. If I walk in darkness (sin), I am not in fellowship with light, because light has no fellowship with darkness.

The flesh does war against the spirit, but a war does not mean I give in to the flesh. If it did, it would cease to be a war. The very fact that it is a war means that one is to be on the offense against the other. If we give in and say, "well I just can't help it, us three here (spirit, soul and body)have the same power, I will just give in." It ceases to be a conflict. Satan and flesh have won!


Last edited by diakoneo on 2/6/13 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Quiet Wyatt
Tom,

Thank you for your kind interest. I have stated repeatedly in this thread the scriptural and theological problems that Brad's view presents. Brad's most recent posts have changed nothing substantive in the discussion, and are simply him repeating himself and misrepresenting my view. I really see no point in restating myself again at this point, but I do appreciate your interest.
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2/6/13 12:11 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Tom,

With regard to a church leader or other professing Christian who willfully persists in sin, well, here's what the sobering truth is:

He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:7, 8 NASB)

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26, 27 NASB)

God's own 'legalistic' New Testament "fear tactics," I suppose one could say. Being a leader in a church organization in no way gives one a free pass for sin. Leaders are subject to an even stricter judgment.


Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 2/6/13 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Re: A conglomeration of thoughts early in the morning Randy Johnson
Poimen wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
As the initial passage for this thread indicated, Paul said when he sinned he is not the one sinning, but sin working in his flesh.


We disagree as to the spiritual condition of the role Paul here places himself in. I, like others have stated, believe he speaks of the unconverted and/or unforgiven state (be it pre or post conversion, it is applicable just the same), the condition of being "without Christ". Simply put he is saying that those who sin serve sin, or are slaves to sin. They are sinning, that is not being denied. Rather, in doing so they have relinquished dominion to sin, so that it is no longer (just) them sinning, but sin has become their master.


What is this unconverted and/or unforgiven state, be it pre or post conversion?

Jesus said, "Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life." John 3:14-16

Jesus said, "The Father loves the Son and has placed all things under his authority. The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him." John 3:35-36

Jesus said, "I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the solemn truth, a time is coming—and is now here—when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." John 5:24-25

Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father—for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:38-40

Paul said, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is God’s power for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel from faith to faith, just as it is written, “The righteous by faith will live.” Romans 1:16-17

Paul said, "Now I want to make clear for you, brothers and sisters, the gospel that I preached to you, that you received and on which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received—that (1.) Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and (2.) that he was buried, and (3.) that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures, and (4.) that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as though to one born at the wrong time, he appeared to me also." 1 Corinthians 15:1-8

Both Jesus and Paul indicate in these verses that salvation, inheriting eternal life, is dependent on believing in Jesus Christ - in His death, burial, and resurrection. Neither Jesus or Paul add any other conditions to this.

I cannot find any Scripture for the idea that believers fall in and out of Christ in this life repeatedly whenever they sin. This does not mean that I believe in unconditional eternal security, I absolutely do not.

What I believe is that if a person deliberately keeps on sinning after receiving knowledge of the truth, they store up wrath against themselves for the Day of Judgment. The thing is, the Day of Judgment isn't in this lifetime, it is "tomorrow", when Christ returns to earth. As long as it is "Today", it is the "Day of Salvation" and the mercy of the Lord is present to set people free from slavery to sin and enable them to do righteousness.

Poimen wrote:
Likewise, when a believer falls into unrepentant, deliberate, or persistent sin he effectively renounces Christ and His ruler-ship. No longer do they reign in life, grace ruling unto righteousness (and that is righteous living) in and through them. Instead they have yielded themselves and their members unto sin, and in so doing are in sin, in the flesh, and no longer in Christ.


Chris, some people fall into sin after they have believed in Jesus because they have been wounded, they have gotten hurt, sometimes by church members or preachers. Some have seen grave injustices done by those who claim to be holy and spiritual, and this has caused them to grow weary in well doing and faint.

These people have not renounced Jesus. Their issue isn't even with Jesus. Their issues are with people, many times ones who have been the loudest in their professions and the lousiest in their performance.

Renouncing Jesus is much more serious than "falling off the wagon" and taking drugs, drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes or doobies, having sex, or going to a strip club or watching an "R" rated movie.

Renouncing Jesus means rejecting and denying that He is the Son of God. Denying the efficacy of His death and His resurrection.

If and when we "lose" our salvation, we do so at the Judgment Seat of Christ, not at the bar on Saturday night.
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2/6/13 12:49 pm


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Post Randy Johnson
diakoneo wrote:
Quote:
To reconcile John's statements, you have to understand the truth that we are 3 parts - spirit, soul and body. Otherwise, John's teaching makes no sense. He says in one breath "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves" and that he is writing to them so they won't sin (1 Jn. 2:1) but if they do they have an advocate with the father and then says "whatever is born of God cannot sin" in the next (1 Jn. 3:9).


OK, let us look at the verse in 1 John more:

1 John 1:6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

We cannot be in fellowship in the spirit and out of fellowship in the flesh. The three may be separate, but if I am to "mortify my members"and "keep my body under subjection", then the spirit man is to be the controller. If he (the spirit man) is to be in control, he is in control by the power of Jesus Christ. I no longer walk in darkness, but in light. If I walk in darkness (sin), I am not in fellowship with darkness, because light has no fellowship with darkness.

The flesh does war against the spirit, but a war does not mean I give in to the flesh. If it did it would cease to be a war. The very fact that it is a war means that one is to be on the offense against the other. If we give in and say, "well I just can't help it, us three here (spirit, soul and body)have the same power, I will just give in." It ceases to be a conflict. Satan and flesh have won!


Amen!

In addition to this, even though we may be three-in-one (spirit, soul [mind], and body), these three are fused together during our life on earth. They do not act independently from one another because the only thing that can separate them accurately is the Word of God (dividing soul and spirit) and the only thing that can separate them completely is death.

This is why Paul warns us to purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit (not just body, but body and spirit), [i]perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. He indicates here that the spirit of a believer may be contaminated after they have believed; otherwise, he would have just said to purify ourselves from everything that contaminates our bodies.
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2/6/13 1:02 pm


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Post Re: A conglomeration of thoughts early in the morning Poimen
Randy Johnson wrote:

What I believe is that if a person deliberately keeps on sinning after receiving knowledge of the truth, they store up wrath against themselves for the Day of Judgment. The thing is, the Day of Judgment isn't in this lifetime, it is "tomorrow", when Christ returns to earth. As long as it is "Today", it is the "Day of Salvation" and the mercy of the Lord is present to set people free from slavery to sin and enable them to do righteousness.


I agree with this. Amen!

What I am arguing with Brad concerns those who are unrepentant and/or persistent in known or deliberate sin. These, whether they have never been converted, or whether having been converted yet gone astray, except they repent, will perish. They have denied Christ by their works. They have failed of saving faith, as their manner of life (their lack of good works, and the unfruitful works of darkness and/or the flesh) gives witness to --proving their faith is dead and therefore useless. These are not, or are no longer, recipients of that lively hope.

Quote:

Chris, some people fall into sin after they have believed in Jesus because they have been wounded, they have gotten hurt, sometimes by church members or preachers. Some have seen grave injustices done by those who claim to be holy and spiritual, and this has caused them to grow weary in well doing and faint.

These people have not renounced Jesus. Their issue isn't even with Jesus. Their issues are with people, many times ones who have been the loudest in their professions and the lousiest in their performance.

Renouncing Jesus is much more serious than "falling off the wagon" and taking drugs, drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes or doobies, having sex, or going to a strip club or watching an "R" rated movie.


I understand what you are saying, but ultimately believe you to be mistaken. They may have let others get in the way, but they have nevertheless taken their hurt out on the Lord. They were "offended in Him" because of others. They have gone away from Him who has the words of eternal life. They have failed to abide in Him, and let His word abide in them. They did not get deep roots, and withered in the heat of troubles and hardships. They were not diligent and let the lust of other things enter in and chock the word until they became unfruitful. And we know what the Bible say about the unfruitful works of darkness. We know what the Lord warns about the unprofitable servants.

God help us all, because except for His grace (and our cooperation with it) there go we.

Quote:
Renouncing Jesus means rejecting and denying that He is the Son of God. Denying the efficacy of His death and His resurrection.

If and when we "lose" our salvation, we do so at the Judgment Seat of Christ, not at the bar on Saturday night.


And yet, while that is the explicit and primary means of apostasy, Scripture reveals there are things tantamount to the same. Implicit denial if you will. One need not deny the efficacious nature of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection to reject it or fail to appropriate it (and keep on appropriating it) by faith.

While there is hope in this life, and they can recover, if they persist in this condition, failing to endure to the end, they will perish. I have no qualms describing such a condition as "lost" in the here and now anymore than I do describing one who is presently abiding in Christ (who may yet finally apostatize) as "found".
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Last edited by Poimen on 2/6/13 4:26 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Post Poimen
Randy Johnson wrote:

In addition to this, even though we may be three-in-one (spirit, soul [mind], and body), these three are fused together during our life on earth. They do not act independently from one another because the only thing that can separate them accurately is the Word of God (dividing soul and spirit) and the only thing that can separate them completely is death.

This is why Paul warns us to purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit (not just body, but body and spirit), [i]perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. He indicates here that the spirit of a believer may be contaminated after they have believed; otherwise, he would have just said to purify ourselves from everything that contaminates our bodies.


Well stated Pastor Randy. This seems to go to the heart of the idea that one can sin with the body yet not in the spirit. Indeed, sin comes from within the heart of a man. And as you noted, we are called to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the FLESH and SPIRIT, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
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Post bradfreeman
diakoneo wrote:
The three may be separate, but if I am to "mortify my members"and "keep my body under subjection", then the spirit man is to be the controller.


As our minds are renewed to the truth, the spirit becomes more and more of a controller.

Quote:
I no longer walk in darkness, but in light. If I walk in darkness (sin), I am not in fellowship with light, because light has no fellowship with darkness.


You say darkness is sin, I say darkness is dishonesty about your sinful condition. We walk in the light (where we can be seen) when we admit we have sin.

Quote:
The flesh does war against the spirit, but a war does not mean I give in to the flesh. If it did, it would cease to be a war.


No, it means you lost a battle in the war.

Quote:
The very fact that it is a war means that one is to be on the offense against the other.


In many wars, both combatants are on the offensive at different times.

Quote:
If we give in and say, "well I just can't help it, us three here (spirit, soul and body)have the same power, I will just give in." It ceases to be a conflict. Satan and flesh have won!


I haven't heard anyone say "stop fighting". We have the grace and strength of God in our weakness. (2 Cor. 12) He promises not to allow us to be tempted above what we can resist and provides a way of escape (1 Cor. 10:13). Our battles are rigged for victory, not defeat.
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Post bradfreeman
Randy Johnson wrote:
This is why Paul warns us to purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit (not just body, but body and spirit), perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. He indicates here that the spirit of a believer may be contaminated after they have believed; otherwise, he would have just said to purify ourselves from everything that contaminates our bodies.


A reasonable reading of 2 Cor. 7:1 would be that the holiness of spirit is accomplished at regeneration when our inner man is "created in righteousness and true holines". Eph. 4:20 So the spirit part is done at the new birth. Holiness of the flesh part is under way and will be completed at the redemption of our bodies.

It should also be noted that 2 Cor. 7:1 is a continuation of Paul's exhortation not to partner with unbelievers in 2 Cor. 6.

James 3:2(a) [i]For we all stumble in many ways.


This verse does not establish that the spirit of a righteous man made perfect can be contaminated only that we should seek perfect (completed) holiness in 2 separate realms.
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Post Re: A conglomeration of thoughts early in the morning Poimen
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Poimen wrote:

And yet, while that is the explicit and primary means of apostasy, Scripture reveals their are things tantamount to the same. Implicit denial if you will. One need not deny the efficacious nature of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection to reject it or fail to appropriate it (and keep on appropriating it) by faith.

What would those scripture references be and what would your opinion be on where and when the effective "denial quotient" has been met?

Serious question by the way...I have a couple suggestions about it myself, but I wanted to see where you take it given our historical discussion on divorce and remarriage and perpetuated adultery.


Tom, unless things change, I have a very busy rest of the week & weekend ahead of me. I don't expect to be able to have the time or mental energy to compile the information and make the kind of post(s) required in response to your inquiry. However, such a response is deserved.

Bear with me a few days, and even remind me if need be? I want to answer when I have more time to devote to it.

I appreciate you brother. Wink
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Post diakoneo
bradfreeman wrote:
diakoneo wrote:
The three may be separate, but if I am to "mortify my members"and "keep my body under subjection", then the spirit man is to be the controller.


As our minds are renewed to the truth, the spirit becomes more and more of a controller.

Quote:
I no longer walk in darkness, but in light. If I walk in darkness (sin), I am not in fellowship with light, because light has no fellowship with darkness.


You say darkness is sin, I say darkness is dishonesty about your sinful condition. We walk in the light (where we can be seen) when we admit we have sin.

Quote:
The flesh does war against the spirit, but a war does not mean I give in to the flesh. If it did, it would cease to be a war.


No, it means you lost a battle in the war.

Quote:
The very fact that it is a war means that one is to be on the offense against the other.


In many wars, both combatants are on the offensive at different times.

Quote:
If we give in and say, "well I just can't help it, us three here (spirit, soul and body)have the same power, I will just give in." It ceases to be a conflict. Satan and flesh have won!


I haven't heard anyone say "stop fighting". We have the grace and strength of God in our weakness. (2 Cor. 12) He promises not to allow us to be tempted above what we can resist and provides a way of escape (1 Cor. 10:13). Our battles are rigged for victory, not defeat.


1. Present your body a living sacrifice goes with renewing your mind, you don't do one without doing the other.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2. The darkness you are speaking of relates to spiritual blindness. The kind I speak of is what Paul related to in 2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
and Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
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Post 2 Cor 6:14-7:1 Mark Ledbetter
Underlying 2 Cor 6:14-7:1 are the words of Ezekiel:

Quote:
“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." (Ezekiel 36:25-27, NASB95)


What Paul is stating is that what the Spirit has begun we are to continue and that requires our compliance that includes walking according to God’s will. It is not a passive endeavor but requires effort on our part to avoid unholy alliances that affect our spirit and our activities.
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